Curse

Stockholm · May 13, 2006, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I love how people who have dont have practical weapon experience jump into these kind of threads and throw all kinds of silliness around .-.

Theres no martial art or fighting technique that holds a Sword upsidedown. Holding the blade upsidedown is only practical in knife fighting, specifically stabbing techniques. Large weapons cannot benefit and only hinder in this position.

First of all I do have some practical weapons experiance, 5 years fencing with Rapier or as we call it Florett. Second was not talking about upside down was talking about holding a sword backwards.

Buoyancy · May 13, 2006, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rancour

Does anyone happen to know what an average hand-and-a-half sword weighs?

That's listed in the links I posted, but you would expect it to be between 3-4.5 pounds.

Buoyancy · May 13, 2006, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stockholm

First of all I do have some practical weapons experiance, 5 years fencing with Rapier or as we call it Florett. Second was not talking about upside down was talking about holding a sword backwards.

As long as we are talking about dual-edged swords, then the only meaningful way to interpret upside down is exactly the same way that the image earlier in this thread shows it. If you have practical experience, then you should be able to cite a real source that shows where people have actually used this type of grip.

Mosch · May 13, 2006, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stockholm

First of all I do have some practical weapons experiance, 5 years fencing with Rapier or as we call it Florett. Second was not talking about upside down was talking about holding a sword backwards.

And how many of those years have you been fencing backhanded?

Dahnel · May 14, 2006, 12:06 PM // 12:06

i love how a simple suggestion for a fantasy game turns into a debate about realism

Mosch · May 14, 2006, 02:48 PM // 14:48

That's not a debate about realism. I would not mind seeing this in the game, in fact I would enjoy some more chances to customize the characters. It's just that some people here make up some crazy figures and theories that they try to sell as truth. I won't bother quoting anyone as it should be obvious....

Man, we are OT. To sum up what I think: Would be nice to implement this ingame, but I don't really see this as a big priority. In fact I don't really think we'll ever see it.

Stockholm · May 14, 2006, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosch

And how many of those years have you been fencing backhanded?

Non, no point with a florett since it don't have a cutting edge.

Mosch · May 14, 2006, 05:11 PM // 17:11

One last statement from someone who actually does sword fighting - Kendo.

I can not imagine why you would, in a real fight, let's say on a tournament, fight holding the sword upside down. Let's make a list of positive aspects you lose:

1)Range. There is no sword between you and your enemy so he will be able to just get in and whack away.

2)Strength. You usually attack in a whip-like motion originating from the hip. Of course that's impossible now.

3)Parry. How will you ever parry anything holding the sword the wrong way? If you're very lucky you might be able to block an attack to your torso (badly, I might add), but how are you going to defend yourself against an attack to the head?

4)Speed. You will first need to bring your sword towards your enemy by doing some kind of ballerina spin and then do a predictable strike.

5)Agility. Have you ever actually tried using your sword that way? I did. You may be the most nimble person in the land, you will really suffer a loss of agility because you shift your "attack zone" to your side.

6)Thrusts. As you have already said.

Holding your sword backwards introduces an interesting problem too. Imagine holding a double edges dword backwards. Did it? Are you in your ninja pose and everything? Now imagine someone whacking at the edge. Where does the other edge move and where does the sudden and intense pain come from?

There is one and only one positive aspect about fighting like this and that aspect is style. And as style is the only aspect that matters in a game, I welcome such a change into a game but I reserve the right to laugh at anybody who "proves" that fighting backhand in real life is a great idea.

lyra_song · May 14, 2006, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stockholm

First of all I do have some practical weapons experiance, 5 years fencing with Rapier or as we call it Florett. Second was not talking about upside down was talking about holding a sword backwards.

The OP posted about GW characters holding their swords Tengu Style.

The tengu hold their swords with the guard under the hand, with the blade pointing downwards. I refer you to my previous post where i photoshopped my warrior holding it Tengu style.

I dont have any problems with it since it is in a fictional setting.

However, since you have fencing experience, you should know that holding your weapon like this is completely ineffective in any combat situation.

Phades · May 14, 2006, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosch

One last statement from someone who actually does sword fighting - Kendo.

I can not imagine why you would, in a real fight, let's say on a tournament, fight holding the sword upside down. Let's make a list of positive aspects you lose:

1)Range. There is no sword between you and your enemy so he will be able to just get in and whack away.

2)Strength. You usually attack in a whip-like motion originating from the hip. Of course that's impossible now.

3)Parry. How will you ever parry anything holding the sword the wrong way? If you're very lucky you might be able to block an attack to your torso (badly, I might add), but how are you going to defend yourself against an attack to the head?

4)Speed. You will first need to bring your sword towards your enemy by doing some kind of ballerina spin and then do a predictable strike.

5)Agility. Have you ever actually tried using your sword that way? I did. You may be the most nimble person in the land, you will really suffer a loss of agility because you shift your "attack zone" to your side.

6)Thrusts. As you have already said.

Holding your sword backwards introduces an interesting problem too. Imagine holding a double edges dword backwards. Did it? Are you in your ninja pose and everything? Now imagine someone whacking at the edge. Where does the other edge move and where does the sudden and intense pain come from?

There is one and only one positive aspect about fighting like this and that aspect is style. And as style is the only aspect that matters in a game, I welcome such a change into a game but I reserve the right to laugh at anybody who "proves" that fighting backhand in real life is a great idea.

The only real benefit aside from "looking interesting" would be the force of the initial strike delivered. Concealment would also be a possibility, but in using a full lenght sword, concealment seems largely out of the question. It would be similar to measuring the difference in force generated between a punch and an elbow. Easier to keep the force generated from the legs/hips with an elbow and not lose in in the elbow joint or wrist through a grazing hit or bending.

Like you said, range is shot to garbage (essentailly grappling distance) and guarding is difficult. Thrusting is possible, but slower/more predictable. I cant really think of a good "neutral" position for it as it seems more like something that is more ideal for a strike that originated from a sheath, but even then it could be easily done with a normal grip.

Still, someone in a more neutral position could just strike the arm along the wrist or the forearm before the blade came around with a reverse grip. I am not sure if there was a style that used the reverse grip primarially, but i highly doubt that it was a full length blade being imployed when doing so. Ive known references to the blade/weapon positioning as gyaku-mochi in a couple different places, but it always seems to be more of a transitional thing opposed to something done all the time.

Nakamura Ryu has some interesting reading within it, but it does reference towards brush strokes likening to sword technique.http://www.webdiva4hire.com/kenshinkan/hapogir.html

Dahnel · May 15, 2006, 06:59 AM // 06:59

well ...it works just fine for the tengu ^^

VGJustice · May 15, 2006, 07:39 AM // 07:39

I have some practical knowledge in this field as well, and while it is true that only an idiot would wield a sword of any kind upsidedown like that in real life, I'd like to point out that this is a fantasy game here. Looks > Realism, in this case.

Which is almost exactly what lyra_song said.

But, uh, why not just let us make a playable Tengu race that holds the sword that way? That'd fix a lot of problems here.

Dahnel · May 15, 2006, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by VGJustice

But, uh, why not just let us make a playable Tengu race that holds the sword that way? That'd fix a lot of problems here.

yes yes yes !!! i'd recreate all my damn characters if i could choose tengu as a race

Leon_Ux-ixen · May 15, 2006, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Ok Kendo dude if you really have pratice this sword tech then you would know that backhanding isn't that inpratical. I myself have a katana which I pratice backhanding. Kendo is straight forward slashing and counter attack that was taken from one the Samurai Kenjutsu styles.

If you would have care to taken notice I did metion that a curved bladed sword(katana, scimitar, falcion,) is more effective. Why? They are usually light and the curve allows for supuier cutting power and wind resitstance which makes it pretty deadly at CLOSE range. I woun't lie and say it is risking at a distance but it does allow for a very nice deflecting. Oh in china they are rather found of backhanding thier version of a broadsword. Don't belive me look it up.

lyra_song · May 15, 2006, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon_Ux-ixen

Ok Kendo dude if you really have pratice this sword tech then you would know that backhanding isn't that inpratical. I myself have a katana which I pratice backhanding. Kendo is straight forward slashing and counter attack that was taken from one the Samurai Kenjutsu styles.

If you would have care to taken notice I did metion that a curved bladed sword(katana, scimitar, falcion,) is more effective. Why? They are usually light and the curve allows for supuier cutting power and wind resitstance which makes it pretty deadly at CLOSE range. I woun't lie and say it is risking at a distance but it does allow for a very nice deflecting. Oh in china they are rather found of backhanding thier version of a broadsword. Don't belive me look it up.

The fighting arts is the science of combat and of the human body. Understanding how the body works, and maximing the amount of power in order to hurt another human body, thats what its all about.

Lets use the basic high to low cut from a katana. The power comes from the follow through. The right hand is used to aim the sword, while the left hand pulls away at the point of contact. The weight of the body is added into the cut, and the hips and legs help stabilize the upper body and add power to turn into the cut. The whole body is used for a single attack. This is what makes it so powerful.

The Tengu's reverse sword grip stance is completely fictional as a full fledged style. There is little to zero power in it. There is no follow through. There is no room for manipulation. The most you can do is a forward stab, a downstab or a self stab.

It's flashy and stylish and very cool (See the swordfight scenes from the movie Equilibrium) but ultimately, it doesnt work. But i still want it in game

Cause its so cool.

Mosch · May 15, 2006, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Alright, "can't type a name" dude, thanks for telling me what I practice. I appreciate it. If you want to backhand your katana, have fun. I suppose your teacher is a really talented guy to master such a complicated and dangerous technique - give him my kudos! (This is in no way intended to mock you or your sensei, by the way.)
But returning to our scheduled flame war

It's all nice and well that you know so much about it all, however you fail to mention details. Even such significant ones as, say, the name of the backhand technique they are so fond of in china. I will gladly look it up then as unfortunately searching for "china backhand technique" comes up with table tennis and so does "china backhand fighting".
In fact, I can not find any evidence on the net about a chinese fighting style that hold the sword upside down. If you could provide me with a source I will gladly continue this discussion with you.

Dahnel · May 16, 2006, 07:50 AM // 07:50

alright, i dont think it really matters about realism when you have people raising the dead and throwing fireballs around , lets just get past that. For all the people that want to see this added to this GAME ... please sign below :P

RBK · May 16, 2006, 08:25 AM // 08:25

/Signed

why? Because it looks kool.

Mosch · May 16, 2006, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dahnel

alright, i dont think it really matters about realism when you have people raising the dead and throwing fireballs around , lets just get past that. For all the people that want to see this added to this GAME ... please sign below :P

Once again, I would like it in the game and I have no problem with missing realism. I don't care the least. I just want this settled with Leon

Therefore an official /sign for you

Leon_Ux-ixen · May 16, 2006, 01:30 PM // 13:30

I Leon Ux-ixen fully support this idea.

IGN: Leon Ux-ixen, Odin Death, Suller Flaire

Email: [email protected]