Curse

Mysterial · May 11, 2006, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghezbora

Thus, it seems to make sense that in a perfect world ele's would outdamage warriors over long periods of time. There are two ways to achieve this:

I don't completely agree; I think Elementalists should outdamage everything over a medium period of time (say 30 seconds) and then have to recharge for a reasonable period of time (say 20 seconds). This allows you to have overwhelming pressure for a period of time where you can and should get a few kills, but if the enemy handles it they have some time to work before you can do it again.

Right now, Elementalists do at best Warrior Frenzy damage (and usually closer to Warrior normal damage) over those 30 seconds, and then unless you take Ether Prodigy you're recharging for about 60.

dgb · May 11, 2006, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markaedw

Please my air ele can chain spells with no AoE and no ehaustion for over 100 pts of damage per hit and still hit the entire crowd, then finish them off by knocking them on their collective butts.

Can we leave the unfounded hyperbole out of this thread please. It has been well demonstrated that elementalists cannot out damage warriors in any scenario that really matters.

draxynnic · May 11, 2006, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markaedw

Please my air ele can chain spells with no AoE and no ehaustion for over 100 pts of damage per hit and still hit the entire crowd, then finish them off by knocking them on their collective butts.

Respectfully... how?

Closest way to do what you're saying I can see is by comboing with water - open with a AoE water spell with the slowing effect, hit them with Lightning Touch, then finishing with Whirlwind, spacing out the spells so as not to trigger the AoE panic (possibly finishing with Aftershock if you're willing to go for three elemental lines).

Or is my online sarcasm detector malfunctioning again?

Mandy Memory · May 11, 2006, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markaedw

Please my air ele can chain spells with no AoE and no ehaustion for over 100 pts of damage per hit and still hit the entire crowd, then finish them off by knocking them on their collective butts.

Yeah, my ele can do that without skills! Or a weapon! In fact, my ele just shows up and everyone dies!

Woo eles kill everything instantly! </sarcasm>

Goonter · May 11, 2006, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mandy Memory

Hahaha, thats ridiculous(ly underpowered). Unless of course that damage ignores armor (I would assume no, because of the "fire pop", it would deal fire damage which = useless)...in which case its decent. Because in all honesty...6 damage every 5 seconds (factoring in armor XD ) is nothing worth taking.

maybe knock a second or two of the recharge.
Its right inbetween Energy Surge in AoE and Lava Arrows in damage.
Its a little expensive to spam, but again, with proper energy spells 10 should be spammable for an elementalist using eley spells.

Mandy Memory · May 11, 2006, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

maybe knock a second or two of the recharge.
Its right inbetween Energy Surge in AoE and Lava Arrows in damage.
Its a little expensive to spam, but again, with proper energy spells 10 should be spammable for an elementalist using eley spells.

The main reason it is unusable is because its player based, with a 2 second cast time. Thats 3 seconds of doing...well...nothing. You have no chance to survive, make your time.

Goonter · May 11, 2006, 05:14 AM // 05:14

I suggest 2 seconds cause its a lot of area, like Energy Surge.
The damage is low enough to go under 10% max damage reduction spells. (an eleys bane)
12 seconds of casting, this would potentually out damage a fireball to more targets.
Its an DotAoE that you can put where you want.

.. I thought it was fairly balanced.
If anything was ridiculous it was the name. "Fire Pop"?

Anyways, the energy spells are undisputedly tight. If you cant spam Fire Pop you may as well have a means to spam Deep Freeze, Searing Heat and Rodgrots Invocation without having to catch your breath so much.

lishi · May 11, 2006, 05:38 AM // 05:38

The fact a warrior might do more damage then a ele is a myth , kiting , stance , ward, evade spell , hex spell etc etc reduce the damage a warrior can deal.

it completely depend con the situation .

Zorian Direspell · May 11, 2006, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Finally! A constructive thread for imrpovement of Elementalists! Here we go:

Revamped Elementalist 1.0
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New Primary: Meditation (All skills in storage moved to Meditation)
Meditation: For each point in Meditation that an Elementalist possesses, there is a 5% chance that the Elementalist can not be interrupted or knocked down while casting a spell.
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Reduce all spells's costs to reflect the Ele's loss of e-storage. For example, Flare becomes 4, Fireball is 8, Rodgort's = 12, Meteor Shower = 15 (nothing greater). There is no good reason for all spells costing a multiple of 5.
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Reduce spell recharge times slightly so that ele can deal more damage per second. For example, Fireball = 4s, Rodgort's = 8s, Meteor Shower = 20s
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Keep exhaustion as a special limit on spells like Meteor Shower. This will prevent Elementalsists from simply spamming a spell whenever it shows up again and make them consider the wisdom of casting the spell as soon as it recharges or after enough time has passed so that the sacrifice is worth it. Like Obsidian Flame. I think the choice to exhaust or wait is essential to the elementalist, and ought to be retained.
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Out of combat, have exhaustion fade faster to facilitate the team (which is otherwise burdened by the waiting elementalist. The choice aspect of using an exhaustive spell isn't intriguing outside of combat anyway ... it's just annoying.
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Don't raise damage and keep e-management skills.
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Summon Elementals: This is more like a personal request than a necessary revision ... if necromancers can summon the dead and ritualists spirits, why can't elementalists summon elementals? Make them all elite, one for each element.
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That's it. I think the reasons for most of the revisions are obvious. I'll explain in detail if need be, but for now, i need my sleep.

Mentalmdc · May 11, 2006, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argen

Not sure what you mean by this, elementalist spells are pretty decent at this already: Obsidian Flame, Double Dragon, Mind Shock, Mind Burn, Mind Freeze...

Mind Spells are HORRIBLE......

Anna Ryan · May 11, 2006, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Ele was my first character and I'm a pyromancer, though I can easily switch between elements (seen the Mirror of Ice elite ? that one can kick serious butt on casters

) As to this thread, yes, ele's get constantly neglected, SS are always favoured out and you know why ? The damn exhaustion meteor and meteor shower have, as for elite I carry with me it's Energy Boon, I love the skill, but I rarely use it, because again exhaustion. I hate to slow my team down because I need to regen (which doesn't happen often, as I'm not one of those nukers who meteor shower every inch of a map -_-) And is it just me or is there no great elite for ele's ? the fire elite are so laughable, stardust really is funny, wow, 91 damage and 5 energy loose for each other foe you hit with it, hmm, no thanks, I'll stay with Inferno, nice 150 damage to all for 10 energy, slow reload though, but then again, with a little luck I get the 20/20 from the Kindlerock and Rago's Wand. The reload time for each is good I think, only the exhaustion annoys me, remove it from meteor and Energy Boon, and leave it on Meteor Shower, that's the best in my opinion.
And then there is the armor -_- I stand it the frontline quite a bit and enemies love to get to me first, so I have the Cantha elite geomancer and Elite Luxon Battlemage. The Battlemage is my favourite, but still gives only 70 armor against physical attacks, which leaves you weaker with the normal pyro/aero/geo and hydro armor. the geomancer is nice, giving me in some situation 80 armor, but still, warriors outclass that so.
Conclusion: git rid of some exhaustion, get a slight armor boost (+10 would be nice) and people will start respect ele again. As for me, I don't care what others say, I just keep playing my ele.

Mandy Memory · May 11, 2006, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anna Ryan

Ele was my first character and I'm a pyromancer, though I can easily switch between elements (seen the Mirror of Ice elite ? that one can kick serious butt on casters

)

Seen Lyssa's aura? Its a much better elite on anyone...(dont get me wrong, mirror of ice is great....its just very limited by the fact that the spell must deal damage...meaning it cant trigger on hexes, which are a lot more scary than the million versions of flare) Lyssa's aura triggers on all spells and steals energy...fueling your offence/defence. (Okay so I admit, I was using it to fuel a monk...)

Mirror of ice is good, but its slightly limited. Especially by the fact that it only hits 1 spell.

kvndoom · May 11, 2006, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markaedw

Please my air ele can chain spells with no AoE and no ehaustion for over 100 pts of damage per hit and still hit the entire crowd, then finish them off by knocking them on their collective butts.

Somehow I have this feeling that they're discussing PVP/GVG and not troll farming...

WasAGuest · May 11, 2006, 02:01 PM // 14:01

I've always believed the AoE update is what killed the player Ele. I know, it's here to stay, and it should stay. It should however, be "fixed".
Fixing the update would go a long ways in fixing the player Ele.

"Player Ele" is said, simply because if you've ever watched the AI use AoE spells, and are playing with henchies, the henchies enjoy a group hug within the AoE effect. However, a player Ele casts an AoE and before the second damage number flies up, the AI is fleeing out of the area. This is always good for a laugh if nothing else.

This also opens up a nice AI exploit. Simply cast the least expensive (energy wise) caster centered spell you have and the AI will run away from you choosing a new target most of the time.

How to fix:

Spells that hit AoE should remain in effect on the foes even if they run out of the area. For example, An Ele casts fire storm. Within the AoE damage still applies as normal but a burn (degen) should be applied so even when (the mobs and players) or if (the henchie group hug) the combatants leave the damage area, the spell is not a waste.
Earth, Water and Air should all have some sort of degen or side effect to being hit with the spell.

Does this make the Ele's too powerful? I think it will make them feared a little bit and Ele's should be feared and respected on the field.

SpeedyKQ · May 11, 2006, 02:08 PM // 14:08

The built-in disadvantages to ele's are fine. They're supposed to cast big impressive spells slowly and have energy management as part of their skillbar.

Everyone is making this more complicated than it has to be.

Every ele spell that does damage just needs to do more damage. Maybe 30% or 40% more. They have to be able to out-DPS everything as they were intended to.

Gneppe · May 11, 2006, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Just want to post my idea of an ele.

A HUGE and i seriously mean HUGE dmg dealer with medium casting time and medium recharge.. The ele should be the warriors hardest opponent.. Just my idea of the ele.. I tried to play as nuker but damn.. Not worth it..

FalconDance · May 11, 2006, 03:12 PM // 15:12

I still don't understand how you (Dr. Strangelove) consider 100 pts of damage "low". Stone Daggers on my Air/Earth ele do 50pt each, two daggers, AND they are nearly insta-recharge for 5 energy. So, if nothing else, that's a neat little spammable ~100 pts of damage every however-long-it-takes-to-cast-it. Lightening is usually 25% armor penetration and at 80 or so damage per zap plus 25% penetration, that is also respectable. Obsidian Flame is a sweet little skill and if you're managing your energy even halfway well, the exhaustion it causes is negligible. Even Aftershock or Crystal Wave does nice damage if used properly.

Of course, fire does more noticeable damage (supposedly) and so most eles seems to be pyromancers. And I'll admit, a well-placed Meteor Storm is a joy to behold when annihilating a group of foes. But please don't paint us all with the same brush.

Elementalists are support players. We're the ones who rain the wrath of the elements on the heads of the foe whilst the warriors take the fight to them face to face. Meteor Storm and its ilk should cause exhaustion....it's a helluva spell! Some of the others maybe shouldn't, but there are arguments for and against every one of them.

If you want to be a massive all-in-one godly damage dealer, find a different game. Or better yet, learn how to play your class, whichever class that may be. All classes are capable of dealing a great deal of damage even if it isn't immediately noticeable.

Undivine · May 11, 2006, 03:40 PM // 15:40

I'm against buffing the ele's spells, as quite frankly, they scare me.

I'll say this though, the ele shouldn't try to compete with the warrior at what the warrior does. He should have his own specialties. One of the things I personally (as a monk) think the ele is best at is causing large damage to multiple foes at once. Monks have a hard time healing that. I think there should be more spells that cause AOE damage in one-shot, like Fireball or Chain Lightning. In fact, I don't think damage over time AOEs are as nerfed as people say they are, if one uses them correctly.

As for PvP, well that's fine. There eles have all sorts of other utilities. They're actually pretty good at spike damage against targets that you cannot physically get to, and with certain spells you can spike an enemy with which you don't have direct line-of-sight.

Though, the ele's spells could use slightly less penalties. I often wonder why the game has spells that cost 15 energy and 25 energy, but never ever 20 energy.

Tongloid Tarthwood · May 11, 2006, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markaedw

Please my air ele can chain spells with no AoE and no ehaustion for over 100 pts of damage per hit and still hit the entire crowd, then finish them off by knocking them on their collective butts.

WTF kind of world are you living in? You can destroy an entire crowd with air skills? Air skills have basicly no AoE so chances are after you've killed one person you have to repeat till fade until you get killed.

I've listened to your suggestions and the one thing that seemed like a brilliant idea is just to eliminate exhaustion. No other class had a ridiculous penalty like that and elementalist skills would be brilliantly fine. I have 8 pretty decent fire skills I could be taking, but I don't take them for fear of exhaustion. I'm going to be adding take away exhaustion to the list and also changing energy storage so that it gives more pips of energy and not just more max energy.

Keep up the posting.

Mysterial · May 11, 2006, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconDance

I still don't understand how you (Dr. Strangelove) consider 100 pts of damage "low". Stone Daggers on my Air/Earth ele do 50pt each, two daggers, AND they are nearly insta-recharge for 5 energy. So, if nothing else, that's a neat little spammable ~100 pts of damage every however-long-it-takes-to-cast-it.

You must be using a different Stone Daggers than the rest of us. My Stone Daggers does 2 hits of 29 damage at 16 earth.

Quote:

Lightening is usually 25% armor penetration and at 80 or so damage per zap plus 25% penetration, that is also respectable.

It's 140 damage for 15/2/5 for Lightning Orb, which is average at best and really should either be costing 10 or doing more damage. I'm not even going to get into hilariously bad spells like Lightning Hammer.

Quote:

Obsidian Flame is a sweet little skill and if you're managing your energy even halfway well, the exhaustion it causes is negligible. Even Aftershock or Crystal Wave does nice damage if used properly.

Obsidian Flame is the best Elementalist spike spell in the game, so no argument there. Aftershock is an OK skill in 4v4 and HA but that's about it. Crystal Wave is overrated - the condition removal is non-trivial, the damage is average (although armor ignoring), and the recharge isn't that good. It's only really useful to rape the idiot warriors that plague random arenas.

Quote:

Elementalists are support players. We're the ones who rain the wrath of the elements on the heads of the foe whilst the warriors take the fight to them face to face. Meteor Storm and its ilk should cause exhaustion....it's a helluva spell! Some of the others maybe shouldn't, but there are arguments for and against every one of them.

Meteor Shower would be completely worth its "most expensive spell in the game" status if it had a huge AoE and actually hit human players. Excepting dais maps, it doesn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undivine

I'll say this though, the ele shouldn't try to compete with the warrior at what the warrior does. He should have his own specialties. One of the things I personally (as a monk) think the ele is best at is causing large damage to multiple foes at once. Monks have a hard time healing that. I think there should be more spells that cause AOE damage in one-shot, like Fireball or Chain Lightning. In fact, I don't think damage over time AOEs are as nerfed as people say they are, if one uses them correctly.

The AoE's (and by AoE I'm referring to Fireball/Rodgort's Invocation/Flame Burst and not Searing Heat/Firestorm/Eruption) are more than people give them credit for in non-positional gametypes, i.e. arenas and HA, where it's usually pretty easy to hit multiple targets and add up the damage even with "nearby" AoEs. In places like GvG, the spells are generally pretty worthless. It's all a matter of AoE size and how the Elementalist spells don't have enough of it.