Curse

Kakumei · Jun 03, 2006, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Guys I'm not sure if you're aware of this or not but uh PvE characters already have an advantage over PvP characters--they can, you know, PvE.

Tarun · Jun 03, 2006, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charqus

/not signed.
Pve chars lvl 20= worked for it
pvp chars lvl 20= 30 secs of char creation

Exactly, and well said in a short summary. The way GW has it is not real PvP. Try other real games like SWG, UO and many others. Even WoW got it right. Your character does BOTH PvE and PvP. You fight to earn your levels, equipment, skills and more. This is what makes true PvP, not being given an instant Godly char with perfect gear. You fight to get your gear, to level up and become stronger and better than the other person. Don't bother trying that "Boo hoo, I have a life." excuse. If you have a life why are you sitting in front of a computer for hours on end playing a game? If people who actually know what a real MMORPG with PvE and PvP want to play a game, grinds for levels and do so much more, then so it. Stop crying like babies about imbalance and your precious "life" and let the game improve.

Phades · Jun 03, 2006, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarun

Exactly, and well said in a short summary. The way GW has it is not real PvP. Try other real games like SWG, UO and many others. Even WoW got it right.

Unstructured pvp is getting it wrong in the easiest of terms. Having more levels than your opponent or better basic equipment guarenting victory does not take skill and is not real pvp. *IF* you want to talk about real pvp, you can point to FPS games for a better comparison, pure strategy games, fighting games, racing games, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMosesPHD

Your character does BOTH PvE and PvP. You fight to earn your levels, equipment, skills and more.

This is what makes a EQ esque grind, not pvp. This does not even equate much into the realm of content or game mechanics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMosesPHD

Don't bother trying that "Boo hoo, I have a life." excuse.

I am sure you were one of the propotnents saying grow up to those who say, "boo hoo a invis level XX ganked my character".

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMosesPHD

If you have a life why are you sitting in front of a computer for hours on end playing a game?

To relieve stress, not create more of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMosesPHD

If people who actually know what a real MMORPG with PvE and PvP want to play a game, grinds for levels and do so much more, then so it. Stop crying like babies about imbalance and your precious "life" and let the game improve.

Hi, this is not a mmorpg. The anacronym put forward by ANET is corpg. Please stop trying to make it into a mmorpg. Even better, go back to playing the real mmorpgs.

Tarun · Jun 03, 2006, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Unstructured pvp is getting it wrong in the easiest of terms. Having more levels than your opponent or better basic equipment guarenting victory does not take skill and is not real pvp. *IF* you want to talk about real pvp, you can point to FPS games for a better comparison, pure strategy games, fighting games, racing games, etc.

Ever played any of those games I mentioned? Or any game with real PvP? If you have, then have you ever beaten someone who was a higher level than you despite you having bad gear, etc. That is what takes real skill.

master_of_puppets · Jun 03, 2006, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarun

Exactly, and well said in a short summary. The way GW has it is not real PvP. Try other real games like SWG, UO and many others. Even WoW got it right. Your character does BOTH PvE and PvP. You fight to earn your levels, equipment, skills and more. This is what makes true PvP, not being given an instant Godly char with perfect gear. You fight to get your gear, to level up and become stronger and better than the other person. Don't bother trying that "Boo hoo, I have a life." excuse. If you have a life why are you sitting in front of a computer for hours on end playing a game? If people who actually know what a real MMORPG with PvE and PvP want to play a game, grinds for levels and do so much more, then so it. Stop crying like babies about imbalance and your precious "life" and let the game improve.

Then why are you playing Guild Wars? Why dont you go play Wow or SWG or
some other crap?

Quote:

let the game improve

Is this fact or opinion?
This is basically what you think: grind is what makes people good players.

Even though the whole point of Guild Wars is skill, not doing long, boring things just to not be at a disdvantage to others. Read the game box, buddy.

Quote:

Even WoW got it right

. Where the hell does it say anywhere that what you described is "right". Ok so WoW has a different perspective of PVE/PVP then Guild Wars. If a player prefers the gameplay of one game over the other, then thats their choice.

People have different opinions, so just because you, Tarun the all-knowing demigod have an opinion, all games should be how you think they should?

Phades · Jun 03, 2006, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarun

Ever played any of those games I mentioned? Or any game with real PvP? If you have, then have you ever beaten someone who was a higher level than you despite you having bad gear, etc. That is what takes real skill.

Those games reach mathmaticaly impossible odds for splits in gear and level to overcome. You know, kinda like throwing pre-searing mobs against a fully geared and skilled level 20 warrior. No amount of skill overcomes that.

RotteN · Jun 03, 2006, 03:09 PM // 15:09

not signed

if you want the (small) advantages pve characters have, get one yourself. What, you don't like pve ? well, then you'll just have to do it anyway to deserve those small advantages.

HawkofStorms · Jun 03, 2006, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Here is the thing. I'm NOT not signing it because I think PvEs deserve an advantage. I'm not signing it because the small portion of the community who this would help (the extremely upper class PvP people who even know about armor switching as a tactic) is far less then the huge portion of the community (newer or more casual players) that will be ticked off by this change.

How many people do you actually think change armor during a PvP match? Give me a percentage here of people who PvP in HA or GvG who switch armor. I would guess it at less then 1% (people on community fan forums are way more hardcore and are not an acurate representation of the game community). Frankly, it is over kill to do this. With new Canthan armor with FoW type skin, you won't even be able to notice if somebody changes armor types anymore, none the less the runes. A.Net did this deliberately. I think it is a sign that they don't want you to know what somebody is running with there different armor.

Just look at the language of Master_of_Puppets. Calling people who are not signing this "freaks" and those who are signing it people who "can actually read, and have sufficient IQ" There is a lot of flamebaiting going on on either side of the issue and I would like everybody to just calm down.

Da Cebuano · Jun 03, 2006, 05:01 PM // 17:01

/not signed

it seems like there is always something to complain about by the pvp folks. Pvp creation char is a utility, game was based of pve and pvp in the same game, so having done both sides of the spectrum, there should be something different about the 2. Being a PVP only char means that you gain access only to the pvp aspect out of things, meaning the basics. A Pve char should have access to what they went through, its stupid how these hardcore pvpers always cry foul whenever something is slighly not in their favor. How many times has anet catered to you guys and screwed pve player? I don't have enough fingers to count. Seems like you guys are always unsatisfiable, always asking for more, next thing you know, you'll want pvp armors to look like 15k and better weapon skins, oh wait! why stop there? how about you get to unlock everything for free w/ factions you get just from playing pvp and have the ability to create perfect weapons/armors stats and the ability to create perfect pvp ready chars w/ access to all unlocked skills w/o having to grind for anything.......... oh yeah, you already have that.

No one is expecting you to grind through the game, so don't expect advantages the people who do get. Seems like the whole mentality is "gimme everything for free" You guys have to realize that some things have to be obtained, justifying it cause you don't want to and cause its not how you play.. too bad, go cry a river you baby.

Oh and i find it hilarious how pvp only players seem to make it sound like they are oh so intelligent and wise and playing the game how it should be played and that all else is dumb and too much time and don't know crap. Seriously, you think people who are successful @ pvp and pve are less than you? when they have done so much more in the same amount of time you have played? think about that. The best guilds out there have pve chars w/ 15k armors and crap thats prestige in pve, and they're @ the top of the pvp ladder... Yeah, I bet they grind alot too... bet they dont understand the game and such... bleh, too much BS spewn around here, if you're really good at the game, you'd not that much to complain about, especially about things such as these.

B Ephekt · Jun 03, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarun

Exactly, and well said in a short summary. The way GW has it is not real PvP. Try other real games like SWG, UO and many others. Even WoW got it right. Your character does BOTH PvE and PvP. You fight to earn your levels, equipment, skills and more. This is what makes true PvP, not being given an instant Godly char with perfect gear.

LOL. Pvp in WoW is a huge joke. If you want to be "good" at pvp simply because you spent 235345 hours leveling your character, then go poopsock in WoW. If you want pvp to actually be about skill, then stick around Guild Wars. Mindlessly ganking lowbies and spamming spells isn't pvp; it's noobs running around clicking their mouse at stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by master_of_puppets

OK Here's for all the people who play GW and are PVE freaks with six level PVE 20 characters with fow amor and 800k gold, have a lot of time to waste, and think that hours played is what makes you good and better than others

First off, nice way to be condescending.

Second, I seriously doubt you will find many PVPers who didn't start with pve and don't have at least a few pve characters. You’re wasting just as much time playing HA and GvG as the pve people are, so stop making asinine “points.”

Personally, I have 5 pve chars and 1 dedicated pvp slot. 90% of my time online in GW is dedicated to pvp though, and I’d much rather use my pve characters in pvp than deal with rerolling and deleting a character every time I go to reroll. It's just more convenient.

Quote:

And here is for all the people who play GW and are serious PVP players who can actually read, and have sufficient IQ and gaming knowledge to realize that Guild Wars is not about grind (unlike some other games), and wasting time shouldnt give u an advantage.

If there is no grind required for pvp why don’t we have UAX/UAS? Why does Balthazar Faction exists? Why are rune unlocks handled the way they are? I doubt you have an answer for that… gg.

If what you said were true, there would be nothing separating the guy who just installed Guild Wars and the guy who's been playing since beta, except skill and an understanding of skills and mechanics. But that's hardly true, now is it? The people who are UAX have spent 500+ hours getting there, so yes, grind IS a part of pvp currently, no matter how much you say it isn't. (Note that I'm not saying I support the grind, I'm just pointing out the flaws in your arguement.)

With that nonsense out of the way, how about we try to come up with an actual solution to the issue at hand?

What about this?

1) Pvp only characters can create 4 weapon sets at creation time.
2) Pvp only characters can craft multiple armor sets at creation time. (Fation could be used for additional armor sets)
3) UAX/UAS
4) Add profession trainers in pvp outposts.
5) Add rune/upgrade/weapon/armor crafters in outposts, and allow them to be equiped immediately.

That reduces all but the physical differences between pve and pvp characters. That is the way is should be. Let those of us with pve characters play pvp with them, but shorten the gap between the two.

I don't think weapon/armor swaps should be restricted at all, because it's a tactical decision. If players want to do that, it's fine by me.

Does-it-Matter · Jun 03, 2006, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by master_of_puppets

PVE requires no skill.
PVP does.

PVE in GW is just time-consuming, nothing about it comes even remotely close to being hard or requiring plans/preparation.

That fallacy right there shows me you've invested about two seconds into PvE, if that.

If all you think PvE is, is running templates to farm 24/7, then you are clearly misinformed.

If you want your opinion to carry some weight, and appear more than a fifth-grade arguement, try getting your facts straight and avoiding fallacies.

TheOneMephisto · Jun 03, 2006, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

With that nonsense out of the way, how about we try to come up with an actual solution to the issue at hand?

What about this?

1) Pvp only characters can create 4 weapon sets at creation time.
2) Pvp only characters can craft multiple armor sets at creation time. (Fation could be used for additional armor sets)
3) UAX/UAS
4) Add profession trainers in pvp outposts.
5) Add rune/upgrade/weapon/armor crafters in outposts, and allow them to be equiped immediately.

That reduces all but the physical differences between pve and pvp characters. That is the way is should be. Let those of us with pve characters play pvp with them, but shorten the gap between the two.

I don't think weapon/armor swaps should be restricted at all, because it's a tactical decision. If players want to do that, it's fine by me.

In other words, do everything in http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=109382

master_of_puppets · Jun 03, 2006, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

1) Pvp only characters can create 4 weapon sets at creation time.
2) Pvp only characters can craft multiple armor sets at creation time. (Fation could be used for additional armor sets)
3) UAX/UAS
4) Add profession trainers in pvp outposts.
5) Add rune/upgrade/weapon/armor crafters in outposts, and allow them to be equiped immediately.

/signed

I'll delete a few of my posts in here since they seem to piss people off :P. But seriously though, name one thing hard in pve.

Tarun · Jun 03, 2006, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Mindlessly ganking lowbies and spamming spells isn't pvp; it's noobs running around clicking their mouse at stuff.

Sounds like GW PVP to me and many others

B Ephekt · Jun 03, 2006, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarun

Sounds like GW PVP to me and many others

1) How do you gank lowbies in Guild Wars when everyone is level 20? 2) If you really think pvp is about spamming spells I seriously doubt you've played anything other than Random Arena.

But if you really feel that way, why are you still playing Guild Wars? Moreover, why are you posting in a thread about pvp?

Lasher Dragon · Jun 03, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by master_of_puppets

But seriously though, name one thing hard in pve.

Running your 8th level warrior from Droks to Granite Citadel, in beginner armor, solo. (did it, and yes, it did suck ass)

Tarun · Jun 03, 2006, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

1) How do you gank lowbies in Guild Wars when everyone is level 20? 2) If you really think pvp is about spamming spells I seriously doubt you've played anything other than Random Arena.

But if you really feel that way, why are you still playing Guild Wars? Moreover, why are you posting in a thread about pvp?

What I do is my business, not yours, tyvm. :P

It's already been summarized what PvP is, go read that post.

fallot · Jun 03, 2006, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarun

It's already been summarized what PvP is, go read that post.

All of your arguments are irrelevant analogies to MMORPGs where there is no mechanic similar to Guild Wars PvP. If you wanted to compare it to anything, a strategy game wouldn't be so off the mark. Actually, even that would be a bad example, but it would at least be an example. If you don't play or enjoy GuildWars PvP, I can't see why you'd have anything against this suggestion. It doesn't affect you in any way.

This is such a simple fix to a longstanding problem. It has no bearing on PvE, it takes away the enormous grind required to be truly competitive. Why would anyone have anything against this ? I'd sign this a million times.

Kakumei made a brilliant point that I'm going to quote for emphasis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

Guys I'm not sure if you're aware of this or not but uh PvE characters already have an advantage over PvP characters--they can, you know, PvE.

Edit: The only possible problem with this suggestion is what HawkofStorms mentioned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

What if you forget to equip the right weapon in your invintory slots before starting a PvP match?

That is a minor issue though, the fault would lie with the player only. I can't see how it would be very different from forgetting to equip a particular rune on the PvP character creation screen.

TadaceAce · Jun 03, 2006, 07:55 PM // 19:55

lol I agree PvE takes no skill, just time.

Want proof? the completely stupid wammos run supreme.

fallot · Jun 03, 2006, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by TadaceAce

lol I agree PvE takes no skill, just time.

Want proof? the completely stupid wammos run supreme.

No offense but taking the thread in that direction will get it closed and I'd rather this idea be visible for a while longer