Curse

BahamutKaiser · Jun 03, 2006, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Because of the way a Giant Flying Glaive would work, I think it should simply hit everyone in it's path, to and from the target in an oval path. These could be plotted with slow attack speeds and high damage, for an effective contiuous AoE like attack.

For someone to hurl a Glaive with enough force to retain a good spin, and chop through several targets, then return, it would take an immense amount of strength, and well as some magic. Your talking about guys who are stronger than Warriors, alot stronger, like Juggernauts.

juggernaut

n 1: a massive inexorable force that seems to crush everything in its way

Thinking of huge bare armed "Juggernauts" with Giant projectile weapons which "crush everything in it's way", would be a pretty good analogy.

These guys can Fling huge Glaives, or even Wing Blades, or Boomerangs. They move in a path doing heavy damage to several targets in a space in front of him. The glaive could spin real fast, but move at a relatively fast pace, about half or 3/4th the speed of arrows, allowing enemies the chance to evade the weapon, and with a relatively slow throw and return rate, the damage would be consistant with other weapons, based on the lack of constant damage on one target, and slow attack rate.

But they may not be able to balance an attack like that, it is basicly a free, slow firing barrage, wile it may balance, it would be a bit overly convenient, and could you imagine combining that with apply poison?

Anyways, I think a strong man who tosses medium pace group damaging glaves would be awsome, they could mix this with some hand to hand combat, and make the glaives more like activateable throws, requiring a skill, and allow the Juggernaut to go melee with some pounding wile his glaive is in flight. This skill could be like a pet, bringing the skill grants access to the weapon and it's use, and selecting it would cause your Juggernaut to throw it.

Big Juggernaut has Giant Glaive attached to the back of his shoulder, click the skill and he throws it at some enemies.

I'm thinking a look simular to that guy in God of War, never played it, but that guy has the perfect look going on, and then put the Giant Glaive on his shoulder, and he lumbers around like a Tundra Giant, looking for a happless group of mages hiding in ward of melee to saw blade on.

Come to think of it, having a skill which is required to bring Glaives would be the perfect way to justify the damage they can do, then giving Juggernaut another type of attack as a medium, like hand to hand. With the glaive equipted, he could slug people and axe on them with the Glaive for extra damage, and when he throws it he would continue using hand to hand attacks without the glaive until it returns.

They can even make his Primary some sort of magical Glaive control or Telekenisis, which allows them to improve the speed of their projectile weapons in flight, allowing for faster Glaive and even Bow attacks, along with some other modifier which hits every 3 or 4 points, like.... I can't think of one.

Anyways, that's what I think about this glaive throwing class, he would have to be a buff dude to fling a huge glaive including a side spin, and the force to return after hitting several targets. Oh, Hell, he would be just like the stone skin dude in Ninja Scroll, that is a perfect example of a huge Glaive throwing Juggernaut, sept without the stone skin.

A good name for his primary attribute would be "Kinesis", not actually Telekenisis, but simply magical Kenisis, which allows the Juggernaut to apply a unique force to his projectile weapons, causing them retain a powerful spin when he throws them, move faster, and most of all, return to him every time. For anyone using a Glaive the weapon would return, but the explination to the Glaives sure returning action would be kinesis, and it would be a primary for this class, which improves their use with any projectile weapon.

Rikimaru · Jun 03, 2006, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Heheh, it sounds like you like the class.
But I think having an automatic "Hit everything in it's path" would be too powerful, but I can add a skill that allows that.
And I dislike the idea of them being really huge, but that's up to the developers if that would be how it ended up, that just won't be how I'll suggest it in the origional post. Also, It does make some sense that I should come up with an explanation as to why they're able to throw around such a big weapon, and that same thing that allows it could be their 4th skill line. But saying that it's their brute strengh that lets them do it is illogical, because professions using this as a secondary would be able to use Glaives too, even tiny little necromancers.

-Edit- hey, the fact that they might have to use magic to control the glaive helps connect their use of magic and this weapon too.
Hm... the magic they use to control the Glaive would have to be similar to the Stigma magic, since that's what they use... but it seems odd to have them supposedly place a stigma on the weapon to control it, since the stigmas are offensive. But, that makes perfect sense that they'd use a stigma, because they don't wear away over time. Maybe I should have that be the reason they can control it, and make the 4th skill line a more defensive use of the stigmas. But I'm not sure how they could be used defensively...

lightblade · Jun 03, 2006, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikimaru

'Cause that'd be the same as making a Martial Artist class with a Karate skill line and deciding to change the attribute name to "Way of the Open Hand", or "Punch Mastery".

Wierd... I just realized that for no reason I occasionally decide to type in the same way that I actually talk, and sometimes I don't...

-Edit- Ok, I made Stigmas a unique type of spell with a little bit more unique effect. Now I just have to figure out how to make them more damage oriented rather than condition oriented, and hopefully make them revolve around Chaos or Physicle damage.

And...what's wrong with "Punch Mastery"? At least it's original...plus it's descriptive

BahamutKaiser · Jun 03, 2006, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Brute Strength is what allows Warriors to be great Sword and Hammer wielders, yet necromancers and elementist can swing swords the size of their bodies with secondary in Warrior with sword mastery, it is a minor attrosity that they can actually wield them, but we can just call it hidden strength.

With a requirement like a neccessary skill to use a glaive, it is easy to justify the damage it would do and the number of targets. It is realy just a AoE physical attack rather than a AoE Fire nuke. The damage of the Glaive skill itself could be moderate, with a low cost in adrenaline, but other Glaive skills, like "Double Spin", which hits each target along its path twice, would cost a little more adrenaline, but since you require the use of this skill, and the Glaive equiptment skill to use it, it would be partially justified by the number of skill slots it takes to execute this attack.

This is very simular to beast mastery, of which skills require a pet to be equipted to have any effect. Unlike a pet, you do not get another allie on the field, with added health, defense, and continous attack, instead, you get a punishingly effective weapon, which requires a skill slot instead of equipting it in your hand. Weapon equipting skills could include, Mega Glaive, Wing Blade, Boomerang (a giant one), and others, these would apply different damage types, and can be limited to one, like elites, equipting another would unequipt the previous. Then you would have skills in the glaive line which are powerful glaive attacks, but the all require one of the weapon equipting skills to use.

Unlike pet attacks which are cheap because they are activatable and dependant on the use and survival of a pet, Glaive skills would provide a powerful reuseable weapon you would "throw", instead of a pet which automaticly attacks, so the skills which require a Glaive could be stronger than other simular skills, instead of cheaper than equivalents like beast mastery skills. And since the Glaive doesn't do anything on it's own, the Glaive equiptment skill could also function as the basic throw skill for the Glaive.

In this way, the normal "Mega Glaive" Skill, which would be a new kind of skill called "Weapon" or "Weapon Equip", would be selected in battle to throw a glaive in a narrow oval pattern, at perhaps 3/4 of a full ranged attack. Then you could use skills like Double Spin for a throw which has the same path, but hits twice on each target, and a skill like "Spindle Throw" which throws the glaive in a path circling you, hitting all targets nearby you. Then you could even have Throws like "Traveling Glaive" which goes 50% further then normal projectile range.

Because the Glaive throw is physical, they can utilize 0 cast time, like a physical attack, allowing for no room for interruption, at least on many throws. But since the Glaive has a travel time, you cannot spam these skills, you have to wait for the glaive to return to you before you can throw another glaive. This would balance the power of the Glaive throw, ensuring that you cannot stack on several throws quickly, even though the reuse times are rather small. It also prevents you from using several glaive skills, since you can only bring one, you have to wait for your glaive to return before you can use another throw skill.

It is rather ingenious, it has it's own built in delimiter. In this way, you can throw glaives for powerful physical AoE attacks, matching and exceeding some elementist attacks, but because the glaive has a travel time, it is possible for people to move out of its path as it travels, and because you have to wait for it to return. Assuming the normal Glaive travel time for the throw activated by the weapon equipt itself takes 3 seconds to return, 1.5 to reach target location and 1.5 to return, you could only throw a glaive once every 3 seconds, and it would only hit any group of targets once every 3 seconds. Longer Throws could take even longer to return, like a double distance throw, it would take 6 seconds to return.

This would make the Primary "Kinesis" attribute very important, with 3 or 4% faster traveling speed per point, you can make the glaive move up to or over 50% faster, doubling the amount of Glaive throws you can put out. These would still cost adrenaline to throw so it isn't like you can just toss away as soon as it returns, but with the Weapon Equip requirement, additional skills could not work without taking at least 2 skill slots, so the adrenaline cost doesn't have to be very high, or more accurately, the damage dealt vs the adrenaline cost would be rather favorable, like 3 adrenaline for a normal Glaive Throw, and 6 adrenaline for a double spin.

The Spindle throw could go around you hitting targets nearby you, taking 3 seconds, then you could have a double spindle throw which revolves around you twice, taking twice as long to return. And wile your glaive is flying, you could move around, in which case the glaive will shift return path to return to you, or in the case of a spindle throw, it will revolve around you as you move.

Because it is a typically physical class, the use of "magic" wouldn't be very good, but Kinesis can be a magical like force that they put on their projectile weapons, simular to Chi force used in martial arts.

Tiny little necromancers and mesmers would be throwing glaives for sure, just like the use swords, but just like a elementist can't use a sword as well as a warrior, a necromancer woln't be flinging a glaive as well as a Juggernaut. Sure it's technically because they don't have "Kinesis" primary, and Glaive Mastery runes, but in all sense of it, they just arnt as strong as a juggernaut or warrior, which is why their throws suck in comparison, just cause they second it doesn't mean they wield the true strength of a juggernaut in their throws.

P.S. with the slow AoE traveling effect, it wouldn't parrallel to any other attack in the game. Ranger/What? Lyra Song

Rikimaru · Jun 03, 2006, 03:22 AM // 03:22

They use skill to wield axes and swords and stuff. Warriors use their physicle strengh to add a little extra damage, hence the Strength attribute.

Having a skill and an attribute to throw a weapon seems a little redundant to me too. You could just have it as an actual weapon and swap it out for the other weapon you want to use with it. It seems more like what you want is to be able to see it on your back because of the skill, but it would be better to suggest having that possible for any single hotbar weapon that isn't equipped. It seems even more redundant with different skills giving different skins for the weapon and altered effects.

The ideas you gave sound fun, but when you really think about it, it isn't really any different from an ordinary weapon, exept that your using a skill slot for it, and in exchange for that it has an effect to it, which could just be applied to an actual weapon version through a different skill.

BahamutKaiser · Jun 03, 2006, 03:58 AM // 03:58

The skill is neccessary to use the glaive, it isn't a weapon which you equipt in your hand and then put points to power up the damage an skills in that attribute. The skill itself is a weapon, and wile it is in your hand you slug ppl with it, then throw it for the same damage over an AoE type path.

In cooperation with hand to hand brawling combat, you would regularly slug and attack ppl hand to hand, with the glaive you would gain some added damage with reduced attack speed, but be able to use the same skills. This could add for a dual effectiveness, equipting hand to hand glove or knuckle weapons, and putting points in Brawling, then putting points in Glaive Mastery for added damage to the glaive. With the glaive in your hand you can hit slower, but your attacks and even fist attacks would increase in damage by the base damage of the glaive attack. Say you do an uppercut with the glaive in your hand, you just added the damage of the glaive to your attack.

Because of the kind of damage you can put out on several targets at a range, with adrenaline, glaives should have the equipment neccessity, otherwise it would be too weak to deal damage, or overpowered if it did damage. In this way you can use a required skill slot to offset the power and effectiveness a glaive has, rather simular to the added damage Glyph of elemental power offers, or the reduced energy cost beast mastery attacks have because they require the skill slot and use of a pet, because Glaive mastery requires a skill slot to use any of its glaive skill, it justifies the efficiency and output the glaive can do, without it, Glaive Throwing with an path of damage effect is simply overpowered, it is a neccessary balance.

The Weapon Equip skill allows you to use the glaive and glaive attack skills, the attribute increases the damage of the glaive attack and its attack skills. Because of the requirements on this weapon, you can afford to give it considerable damage, which would make the weapon useful, otherwise your throwing paper fans which woln't put out enough damage to matter. Instead of a continous Ranged attack like Arrows or Wands, you get a semi-repeatative "Path of Damage" projectile which does heavy damage in in a path at a medium fast pace.

Saying that it doesn't have any difference to other weapons, EXCEPT you use a skill slot instead of equipting it in your hand (1), and that it does a totaly different kind of attack path (2), is a counter statement, it is almost completely different because of those 2 factors. Unlike every projectile weapon and spell which casts in a line and hits one target or a target and others in an AoE around it, this projectile flies toward a targets in a oval path to and from your target, and unlike every weapon in the game, it is equipable with a skill slot rather than just putting it in your hand, which is a serious cost toward using the weapon, just like using a pet. It is in several respects, completely different, down to the foundation of weapon equipment itself.

Yes, this kind of effect could be applied to spells and arrow attacks, like an arrow which shoots in a straight line through up to 3 targets, or a fire attack that cuts a path of damage in front of him or in several directions, but for all intents and purposes, this is a totaly new form of attack for the game, and would require a little invention to be applied. And for any other class to use skills of this kind of magnitude with normal weapons or just spell skills, it would require an enormous amount of energy or cost because they are executing it with one skill, as compared to a Juggernaut who uses several skills together, and cannot use them back to back, his glaive throws can unleash masterful amounts of damage without being unbalanced, the cost in skill spaces and weapon return time balance the damage, it is a rather perfect equation, which is why I am so proud of it, but do piddle about the "Isn't really any differen't" aspect of it further.

This is why I make ideas and ignore onpours of misguided imput, wile on the other hand cut and burn weak ideas which don't work no matter how many people like it, you prove over and over again that you can't grasp the depth and balance I develope every time you comment.

As I have said to pervious posters in the past, save yourself shame by asking me how I have designed it to work rather than misguidedly undermining the invention which you have yet to grasp.

If you think you can come up with a more original and balanced concept excluding my contribution, take a crack at it. Otherwise stop insulting me with your belittlement and oversight, in perspective, you insult yourself.

Rikimaru · Jun 03, 2006, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Your ego's growing pretty fast, for a minute I thought you were heading towards saying the whole thing was your idea

And what I'm trying to say isn't that it's the same as any other weapon, I made so it would be unique. What I'm trying to say is that it would work almost exactly the same if it were an actual weapon, rather than the skill you're suggesting, so it might as well be an actual weapon in my oppinion. Atleast then you'd be able to upgrade it.
I don't see the point in getting so worked up over this and insulting us. I'm not saying your idea is crap or that I hate it. I'm just pointing out why I don't think it should be changed to work that way.

lyra_song · Jun 03, 2006, 05:00 AM // 05:00

911 Operator: Hello 911 emergency
Lyra: Hiya, Im witnessing a thread-jacking in progress at Sardelac.
911: Im sorry thats not a life or death emergency, please contact the regular police
Lyra: >.<

Rikimaru · Jun 03, 2006, 03:43 PM // 15:43

It sucks that this fell behind, Bahamut ran this pretty far off-course. I still need help with everything listed in the origional post, so... please help?
I think it's most important that I get a name right now.
-Edit- I finally added a 4th skill line.
I'm proud of how well all of the skill lines fit together now, even the weapon fits with the use of magic. The class revolves around the use of magical marks and ranged physicle damage with their Glaive. They even have a skill line that revolves around buffing allies, which doesn't currently exist (if you ignore the damage reduction enchantment line from monks).

BahamutKaiser · Jun 03, 2006, 08:39 PM // 20:39

I'm sorry for taking some of your interest and making a good idea out of it, next time I will make a seperate post and develope it myself, sorry for trying to work together.

The weapon can be made to deal alternate damage types and effects with alternate weapon skills, but you obviously don't get it, the weapon would work more like an AoE spell then a weapon, every weapon in the game hits one target, a flying glaive would hit several targets in an oval pattern dealing simular damage to AoE, although at its root, it is totaly alternate to any kind of attack in the game, and would require a new program to operate since no exsisting skill in the game functions like this.

You can put the Glaive in your hand like a weapon, but then it becomes your regular attack, just like a bow attack, you probably can't justify much AoE damage, and it would probably be no better then Barrage, and overall, you would have exactly what Lyra Song said, an alternate to ranger.

Sorry for coming up with something original, you can do this without me.

Rikimaru · Jun 03, 2006, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Whatever-
So I finished the concept for the appearance of the class, it turned out looking a little more cartoonish than I wanted, but it still gives an idea of the armor fine, and shows what I think could be the headpiece. I'll post it later.
-Edit- I've posted the picture, but it transfered really bad.

actionjack · Jun 04, 2006, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

This is why I make ideas and ignore onpours of misguided imput, wile on the other hand cut and burn weak ideas which don't work no matter how many people like it, you prove over and over again that you can't grasp the depth and balance I develope every time you comment.

As I have said to pervious posters in the past, save yourself shame by asking me how I have designed it to work rather than misguidedly undermining the invention which you have yet to grasp.

If you think you can come up with a more original and balanced concept excluding my contribution, take a crack at it. Otherwise stop insulting me with your belittlement and oversight, in perspective, you insult yourself.

Wow.. that some hard core Ego Trip.

Actually, BK, when was your last Concept class that gets major signed? Dragon?

Be kind. Your idea is after all, yours. You don't need to force it down on anyone. If they don't like it, make it a more develop one and post it in a new thread. There is no need to pull ranks here.... High-Council.

Rikimaru · Jun 09, 2006, 07:37 PM // 19:37

The class had turned into something pretty dorky in my oppinion, and kind of started out that way too. So, I've made some pretty big alterations to the class concept, including removing that horrible concept picture.

Dj Tano · Jun 09, 2006, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Rangers could use this so good for the proliferation thing...

Rikimaru · Jun 10, 2006, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Is that a good thing, or a bad thing?
I Think it's pretty on-par with their 4% energy cost reduction.