Curse

nrvllrgrs · Jul 19, 2006, 02:40 PM // 14:40

As a PvE Me/R, using Domination and Beast Mastery, the fact that my pet doesn't take DP allows me to actually stay alive. I can be casting Empathy or Backfire while simultaneously calling Beast Attacks helps. But I know that I'm not going to be nearly as effective with pet DP.

JR · Jul 19, 2006, 02:40 PM // 14:40

This thread, particularly the posts in it relating to IWAY, actually made me a little bit sad in real life.

T_T

Raiin Maker · Jul 19, 2006, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

This thread, particularly the posts in it relating to IWAY, actually made me a little bit sad in real life.

T_T

Why, because IWAY got a slight buff?

FrogDevourer · Jul 19, 2006, 02:53 PM // 14:53

The design of pets is basically flawed and very very hard to address. It's not just a problem of pet control and AI. Your pet is your weapon, but it's a second weapon, a moving weapon, and a half-autonomous weapon. The ranger + pet symbiosis is basically a character with two different weapons, double HPs (two damage buffers), double mobility, not to mention bonds (HP/dmg transfer from one pool to the other) and buffs "as one" (two buffs for the price of one skill). Worse, pet skills have been overbuffed to make up for the lack of intelligence of your pets and it's too easy to abuse this.

As a result, killing a decent beast master can be a real nightmare in some PvP environments. Either you concentrate on the pet, and you face multiple pet resurrects plus extra annoyance from the ranger's own attacks. Or you concentrate on the ranger and his pet will do damage, interrupts, k/d and so on...

The difficult equation is that :

a decent but unexceptional investment in your pet and in BM is enough to be a serious annoyance in PvP (or a serious bonus in PvE, like for barragers)
a fully equipped beastmaster is arguably weaker than most popular or basic builds because you lack some pet intelligence, flexibility and control

As mentioned by Locust and Makkert, the DP ninja update was implemented to fix #1. Unfortunately the fix is seriously over the top.

Firstly it makes pets almost useless for bunny thumpers and other "half beast masters", even with a non trivial investment of two skills and 10+ attribute points. Each time your paper-thin pet dies, you lose adrenaline, the ability to use your skills, and to apply pressure. Repeatedly killing the pet is the best way to hamper the ranger. Simply put, it's probably much wiser to leave your pet at home or to use it as a sacrifice fodder (Coward, IWAY...).
Seconly it makes #2 even worse, which is incredibly frustrating if you want to play a full beast master.

Improving the pet AI and control would certainly solve many issues, but not all of them. Epinephrine summarized them quite well here. The biggest complain is probably that pets are not a part of your party so many skills don't affect them, and most PuG monks tend to ignore them.

What would have been the best way to solve many PvP-related issues (IWAY, thumpers...)?

Increase the casting time and fragility of pet resurrection skills and put them on par with standard resurrects
Nerf/remove Revive Animal (mass-resurrect for pets) to disrupt degenerated group strategies
If the pet DP is philosophically something that must be added then :
- make pets real allies (targettable with standard resurrects, heal party and so on)
or
- scale the DP down with beast mastery (typically 15 per death at BM 10, and only 5 at BM 16)
or
- add an activable function to Charm (even if easily interruptible, expensive, slow, slow recharge...) to help make your pet more resilient without spending yet another skill slot on a stupid pet you can barely control... For instance something to remove 1-5% DP with each activation

But finding the best way to approach the bigger picture is very hard. It's not just a technical problem of skill slots, attributes or DP. Some of the toughest questions are :

how to address the symbiosis and the duality between the pet and the ranger (pets are not just a weapon, they're moving, they have their own HP, they can serve as a cheap homing system for smiting or as meat shield for barrage...)
are pets supposed to be reserved to primary rangers with high expertise and 16 bm? should they be usable and useful with a moderate investment or not ? (for instance, minion masters with only 10/12 death magic are worthless, but 8/9 in expertise is enough to get a decent effect)
should pets be controllable extensions of the rangers, or half random creatures like minions?
should pets be disposable/resurrectable creatures, or something more resilient that the team should want to keep alive?

Problem is, none of these questions is trivial, and the implications on the whole attribute line, and more generally on the overall metagame are very deep. That's why I agree with Epinephrine and I believe ANet's approach will remain very conservative on this problem. I expect a couple of minor changes to accommodate verbal Best Masters, but not much more because it's probably too complex and too risky. However may be a future new profession will use a variant of pets, and this tricky balance problem will be re-examined.

serenitys flame · Jul 19, 2006, 03:16 PM // 15:16

There cannot be a more useless skill then "Otyugh's Cry". I'm pretty sure this is how the spell reads: "All non-charmed animals around you become aggresive to the enemy you're fighting (for some amount of time or something like that)." HOW OFTEN DO YOU FIND UNCHARMED ANIMALS!?!? EVEN IF YOU DID, THEY WOULD BE LEVEL 5! Great skill, control a level 5 wolf for 20 seconds to help you kill some level 24 enemies!

Amy Awien · Jul 19, 2006, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

The question is wether morale boost really has any affect, meaning that even if we have flag control, my pet doesnt benefit, and thats not very fair >.<

Probably not, taking into account that

a) until recently pets didn't get DP and thus no morale boost and that this change just feels like a quick-fix (Gaile didn't know about it) and
b) I never saw any post that indicates that pets get morale boosts

I'll take it for granted that the devs 'forgot' about morale boosts and compensating DP for pets (and other allies).

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by serenitys flame

There cannot be a more useless skill then "Otyugh's Cry". I'm pretty sure this is how the spell reads: "All non-charmed animals around you become aggresive to the enemy you're fighting (for some amount of time or something like that)."

You didn't read it well, or you forgot the +20 AL part. That would make it a great skill if it didn't require untamed animals to be somewhere in the area as 'target'

The Hand Of Death · Jul 19, 2006, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

On a less-...douchbaggy note...

They could nerf touchers and thumpers at the same time by making expertise apply only to ranger skills. That's why it's a primary attribute.

If they do that then they nerf their own pre-made build, Fang of Melandru, I don't think they are going to do that. I don't see what is wrong with touchers or bunny thumpers. Touchers are easily killed if you know what your doing. Slow down spells, diversion, heavy degen, interrupts (hard to do), backfire sometimes even works on them (if they are stupid enough to use OoB when it is on them). The reason they are so good is because in the midst of battle no one takes the time to run away from them when they get crippled. Bunny thumpers are also easily killed and they should get a nerf. So they are used a lot of GvG now adays, that is probably because of the smiting monks rise. Either way both builds are not hard to kill as long as you are prepared to fight them.

I will admit touchers do get annoying, especially when a group of four comes chasing after you

.

Rulke · Jul 19, 2006, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

You didn't read it well, or you forgot the +20 AL part. That would make it a great skill if it didn't require untamed animals to be somewhere in the area as 'target'

Actually, it doesn't require untamed animals to be in the area. It requires you to be in spell range of some enemy.

What stops it being a great skill for me is that you have to be near the pets for them to get the bonus, and normally I'm standing longbow distance away from my pet while it kills my target for me. Having to move closer than my longbow range even if my pet's next to me is also annoying.

Amy Awien · Jul 19, 2006, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Ah, ok, I'll give it some more thoughts and experiments then, +20AL is a good reason.

BigTru · Jul 19, 2006, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raiin Maker

it makes their pets die quicker, which in turn makes them able to heal themselves faster-so yes, it is a unintended buff.

Plus my Guild Wars is uninstalled XD.

Ok... Let me try to explain this as best I can...

When your pets die, they get DP.
The purpose of IWAY is to let their pets die.
Once they are dead, IWAY lets them stay dead.

Make sense?

fallot · Jul 19, 2006, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by led-zep

second time you've trolled this thread, give a reason or kindly zip it cos you are getting boring. typical elitist pvper

That I need to give a reason is the scary part. I'm beginning to wonder if the people who incessantly complain about IWAY have ever touched GW PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigTru

Ok... Let me try to explain this as best I can...

When your pets die, they get DP.
The purpose of IWAY is to let their pets die.
Once they are dead, IWAY lets them stay dead.

Make sense?

Oh noes! A typical elitist pvper!

Bhaaltazar · Jul 19, 2006, 08:47 PM // 20:47

While i was reading all this posts all i hear Nerf touchers, nerf Thumpers...( most of it is just repeating of something already mentioned )...

Few month ago it was nerf IWAY, wariors,.. eles r too strong... and after devs did something about ballancing something else came out that was waaay overpowerd...

So the problem is there will never be exact balance unless u start fighting with sticks with 0 energy many pool and 0 attribs...

I belive there is no point in all this "nerfing" this and that build because after each nerf there will be another class which will take advantage over other classes...
Its just neverending walking in circles wich cause all the flaming on the forums... More u fix it worse it gets...

Priest Of Sin · Jul 19, 2006, 09:54 PM // 21:54

This thread shall henceforth be known as the clash of the egos... continue as you were, ladies.

lishi · Jul 19, 2006, 11:23 PM // 23:23

wait 1 second!

a beast master run normally 12-14 in beast mastery

that mean a 90-100 hp heal each 1 second , energy is not a probrem since thumber normaly have enough.

that is more the enough for the casual damage your pet receive.

if instead the enemy target the pet , they are not targeting someone else so the monk can heal it.

where is the probrem? is too hard to remember to use confort animal?

until now there was no reason to kill the pet since they get free ressed by confort , now there is a decent reason ...

fiery · Jul 20, 2006, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Lol, agreed, knock down the non-believers so Chapter 3 can be more open to those veterans who love the game.

Lord Oranos · Jul 20, 2006, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Iono, I always thought the pets having no dp made up for them for being dumb as rocks(why cant they atleast have henchie A.I. and change targets when I do?)... but now there is even less of a reason to play one...

Amy Awien · Jul 20, 2006, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Well, at the rate ANet is alienating players from GW, you might have chapter 3 all for yourselves, there might not be a chapter 4 so no worries there either.

lishi, a bunny thumper is not the only one who uses a pet, this is more of a downer to the real beastmaster then thumpers anyway. Secondly, no matter how much of the damageburden your pet takes, human monks do not heal them, even though they can. Thirdly, even with 14 expertise Ferocious Strike will not be able to keep up

There is no way to disengage, or otherwise control a pet (probably more of interest in PvE), it does not share morale boosts and can not get rid of it's DP as players normally can (and fast enough too).

Former Ruling · Jul 20, 2006, 05:36 AM // 05:36

This doesn't effect IWAY at all..for those that screamed that...DP means nothing if you are never rezzed...and IWAY don't rez their pets...So GG to all of those that don't have a lick of respect left because they maoned about IWAY Buff...

Also...This really doesn't hurt "True beastmasters" at all..its really a thumper thing. Thumpers think they should get the cake and get to eat it too.. Use ap et and have it PWN with Fero Strike and such, without dipping any of their resources into it.

God FORBID that someone actually has to take some protection for their pet to not get it killed...BM has some of the best protection in the game for your pet...including a Shout that gives it -15 dmg reduction for like a minute...

Rikimaru · Jul 20, 2006, 05:47 AM // 05:47

First of all, this effects "Real Beastmasters" a lot, mostly because apparently there's no way to heal the DP at all, but also because having your pet die messes you up pretty bad (8 second downtime on death, 8 second downtime on rez), and now they die more easily every time they die.
And Thumpers were never overpowered. From my experience, the very idea is rediculous. They do great damage and interrupts/knockdowns, but they have literally no means to heal themselves. touch rangers are way the hell more "overpowered", and they arent even getting adjusted, let alone nerfed to hell.

Lord Oranos · Jul 20, 2006, 05:53 AM // 05:53

I seriously doubt dp does not affect "True" Beastmasters, even with the defense skills I pack(usualy cop with comfort) they usualy die, mostly because the animal refuses to stop attacking even after the target has kited him well beyond my reach.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hengis Stone

So, now we have a weapon that gets DP?

(Quoted from another thread)
QFT, so now we have even less of a reason to use a bm outside of pve, "balance" ftw, eh?

Even though I like my Beastmaster, I realized before the update that it is crippled by the A.I. of the pet, and now that my pet will be penalized for not being able to break aggro due to an A.I. flaw seems ridiculus.