Curse

Hengist Meldanash · Jun 30, 2006, 12:37 PM // 12:37

I totally agree with the OP. Just think of all the primary classes that are versatile and can take advantages of all secondary skills combination. I'm also a build conceptor and I like to have access to all skills available. My Warrior may as well be W/Me, W/Mo, W/El, W/R or W/N (not even talking about W/A or W/Rt as I've not yet explored fully their capacities), and that's the same with my Me/X. Those being my two favorite characters, I've spent a lot of time, and money on their skills, and I'm still willing to test any possible combination with my other Mo, N, A, or R characters!!

Concerning the elite skills, I'm not found of collecting some skills that may not be useful for my character regarding his primary class (eg Strength elite warrior skills for any of my characters that are not W primary), so the title should be shared between all the characters' account.

/signed

Hengist

SpeedyKQ · Jun 30, 2006, 01:02 PM // 13:02

I don't see a need for a change. Once a character is advanced, and has all of the skills, why is it being deleted and rerolled? Why not, you know, just keep the character?

Sure, people will make new characters for new expansions, but with Factions there is a much better model for getting skills. Skill points come quickly and trainers teach all skills. You can play whatever build you design for pretty much the whole storyline. This is a great thing, but isn't it good enough?

Each character should have to spend time and resources to improve, even after ascension. This is part of pretty much every RPG in existence and it makes perfect sense to me. If you don't like advancing characters over and over again, then don't. Just keep a stable of fully-advanced characters.

Cirian · Jun 30, 2006, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpeedyKQ

Each character should have to spend time and resources to improve, even after ascension. This is part of pretty much every RPG in existence and it makes perfect sense to me.

I totally agree with this line. What I have said is that players should be out there earning new skills and hunting down the new elites to improve their collection. Players should be moving forward and not back, but the instant you roll a new class to take advantage of their primary and armour... bam, you have to re-cap your whole library of hundreds of skills. It's fine to be locked out while you learn the ropes doing the L1 - 20 stint, but after Ascension you typically want to think about your end game.

For some, the end game will mean earning a lot of money, trading or collecting rare skinned weapons or mini-pets, grinding elite zones or buying obsidian armour. For others like me, the end game is about having a complete skill set and finding obscure skill combinations to slap mobs with - and obviously each primary offers new possibilities, so a single old character with everything just won't do. Without my library opening up at some point, my new characters won't have much of an end game... certainly not a fun one anyway.

I'd like Ascended characters to have the kind of access to skills that PvP characters have, except that I don't care to play PvP characters - I like to kill mobs in new an original ways rather than players.

To make a reference to another game that had a fantastic open ended skill system, I'd point to Final Fantasy 7's Materia system. Every materia had to be found or earned, it's powers grown through killing mobs. But instead of materia being tied to one character, you could swap them around freely to quickly create new combos and it was really open to experimentation and using your brain. The most obscure thing that I found was the way Master Command interacted with Double Cut... a totally unexpected and powerful result occured that gave me a massive rush.

I approached Guild Wars with a similar mind; just an amazing number of skills combinations to tinker with if the game will let me.

mattjones527 · Jul 01, 2006, 01:35 AM // 01:35

/signed

I love the idea of the skill unlocks per account instead of character. I think it would help the game more than hurt it.

Genraka · Jul 01, 2006, 02:55 AM // 02:55

/signed

I quit World of Warcraft because it was a massive pointless grind. I like to play with multiple characters and anything that reduces grind is ok with me.

Either use the OPs idea, or make skills that are already unlocked cost like 50-100g at the skill trainer.

Avarre · Jul 01, 2006, 03:44 AM // 03:44

/unsigned

You have to level up a character anyway, and when leveling up a character, you level it up to play the character. Capping the skills you would like to use is part of the game.

Quote:

Concerning the elite skills, I'm not found of collecting some skills that may not be useful for my character regarding his primary class (eg Strength elite warrior skills for any of my characters that are not W primary), so the title should be shared between all the characters' account.

1) If you aren't fond of it, don't cap them.
2) If you care about playability, why bother capping str on other chars?
3) If you do want to use the skills, just go out and cap.

Cirian · Jul 01, 2006, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

You have to level up a character anyway, and when leveling up a character, you level it up to play the character. Capping the skills you would like to use is part of the game.

You're absolutely right, characters are there to be played. I know you have a lot of skills Avarre, and you're a great innovator with your mesmer, but if you ever changed primaries now you'd be hosed.

If you were ever tempted in the future by a Chapter 3 class (or even an existing one), every skill you'd ever collected with Avarre would be locked away forever and you'd have to go back over Chapter 1 and 2 just to get back to where you were.

I believe players should to learn how to play a new character properly up to the point of Ascension, capping new skills along the way. After that point, previously capped skills re-appear in your library and you can concentrate on capping or buying new ones.

Replaying old chapters over and over with new characters is just insane. This change makes as much sense to me as removing "refund points" for attributes was.

Avarre · Jul 01, 2006, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

You're absolutely right, characters are there to be played. I know you have a lot of skills Avarre, and you're a great innovator with your mesmer, but if you ever changed primaries now you'd be hosed.

I don't have lots of skills. I have all skills

Quote:

If you were ever tempted in the future by a Chapter 3 class (or even an existing one), every skill you'd ever collected with Avarre would be locked away forever and you'd have to go back over Chapter 1 and 2 just to get back to where you were.

Besides Avarre, I also have a necro with some 2500k xp that I use for fissure/uw, and a ranger (deleted) for solo/group fow (had about 1000k xp). These characters needed elite skills and multiple secondaries, and I went and got them. That's part of developing your characters.

Avarre is my little gem, when I make other classes I make them to play. That means I get the skills I need on that character, whereas on Avarre I get everything because I can. If I made a chapter 3 class, I would never try to max it, I would just grab everything that I need for that character and cap more on a basis of requirement. I already know where to cap previous skills, so it's not a grind, just another chance to play the character I'm getting skills for and spending time on. And those skills will allow you to play the character even more.

Asking for everything unlocked in PvE across the board is just silly.

dreamhunk · Jul 01, 2006, 04:48 PM // 16:48

As guild wars is rpg game. I would say no to it! YOu have to treat each charactor like a new life.

If anet runs away from this they are moving away from amking this game a true rpg! So in this case opening up all skills is not rpg! it is more like fps!

I had put deep thought in to it.

BahamutKaiser · Jul 02, 2006, 01:44 AM // 01:44

skill trainers will allow you to buy all the normal skills you have gained beforehand, but they cost just the same.

I have been suggesting the same idea for some time now, at some point in the PvE game, ascension, becoming closer to the stars, or after beating the chapter, a character would achieve some status which granted him access to all non-elite skills which have been unlocked for that account.

The other thing they can do to easily reduce the difficulty of re-skilling is remove the monitary cost for skills you have already unlocked. Basicly what I mean by this is that it would only cost you a skill point for a skill you have unlocked, instead of a skill point and gold (up to one plat), sucking up all my gold for each character I recreate is a staggering blow to finances, it is hard enough to rearmor this new character, for someone trying to build several characters, that cost is too high. With the increase of skill point and exp aquisition granted in Factions, using up your skill points and getting a few more isn't the worst fate, by just removing the cost of these previously unlocked skills it would help alot. This also allows us to unlock some skills with factions and then learn them on our characters without spending gold, for those of us who would rather try to earn "wealth" through PvP instead of PvE, this would provide a reasonable alternative, so far, we can only improve our PvP characters with PvE, it would be great if it worked both ways.

The point is that, this sort of gold sink, doesn't help stabilize the economy or protect against farmers, farmers are the guys that use the same character endlessly in patterns to gain wealth, they arn't in any need of new skills, or gaining skills over again with every other class, but for the rest of us, we need a more affordable means re-skilling new characters, it will be taxing enough to go through the same missions, quests, and exploration with our new character, spending time farming for each one is unneccessary tasking to no end, and not how we want to spend our time.

Each skill should only be paid for once....

GW is a revolution in RPG history, a game which doesn't ask a monthly charge for continous online service, and a game which stresses the enjoyment and playability of the game instead of work which should not exsist in a game. I have put even more thought into this, Anets typical perspective is one of disdain for farming and spending time doing monotinous activities for monitary wealth, this is an intregal part of GW gameplay, and should be carried out a step further. I believe the most common praise every game review gives GW is its pick up and play feasibility, farming for a dozen hrs to pay for skills on every character you make and remake isn't in sink with GW best features. Grinding may be a common flaw in RPGs, but it is a flaw, and should not be propagated just because it is common in RPGs.

floppinghog · Jul 02, 2006, 02:28 AM // 02:28

dumb, like alot of people mentioned, its what RPG is.

ITS WHAT doing RPG is all about. you can't play once, then make a new char ready to be as "godly" or as useful as the last one you finally made.

stupid topic - feel bad for the people who have to explain time and time again. if you want something, go make it. if you don't wanna spend the time to do it how its supposed to be done - DONT DO IT. if you cant spend all the gold u need for all skills - DONT DO IT. quit complaining and either play with brains or quit... honestly. when i see PVE it means RPG. if your not playing with other people, your playing with the story. if you don't like rpgs, why are you playing one?

above : grinding isn't a flaw, its the same as life, you don't get a free 10k for your nice car because you were born helpless. you work for it - unless your spoiled. rpg is another world you put yourself in, play by its rules, enjoy the fantasy that doesnt equal the real world. thats role playing and its fun to grind for just your armor looks, instead of being naked for years tryin to get armor to even try to live.... makes no sense.

heach · Jul 02, 2006, 02:54 AM // 02:54

partially agree, I have 2 acc with 8 professions, that is a pain I have to buy/cap skills again and again, even a FoW run can't help much.
although it's fine to cap elite 8 times, but I can't afford to buy all skills with 8 characters. (I want to play PvP with PvE char, they can change suits in the middle of battles, unlike PvP char)

@BahamutKaiser: I agree with the idea to reduce the cost of skills you already unlocked for one account, like 500g or something.
and
/signed

Age · Jul 02, 2006, 04:48 AM // 04:48

It has rpg at the end of it becuase you are just fullfilling a role in a cooperative comptetive game that is all.I would hate if I wanted to delete and redo one of my Char. from presearing on.

Makkert · Jul 02, 2006, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Altough such a change would be dandy, I don't think it will come to be.
Buying skills is a moneydrain, and an important one at that...

jesh · Jul 02, 2006, 07:33 AM // 07:33

I too would like to see this happen.. and yes it is a pain for those who reroll or don't like unlocking for the sake of unlocking. Earning a skill once is good enough, isn't it?

Even if ANet doesn't totally agree, there's middle ground. They could do a system where each time a skill is unlocked, the cost is reduced by 33% for new chars, or 50%, or whatever it is that seems right to them.

I do agree with the principal behind this, it is definetely an issue for those of us that look forward to high end PvP on our PvE characters.

sLiceR · Jul 02, 2006, 07:46 AM // 07:46

i just rerolled my warrior because i didn't like her name, i exactly understand the OP's point of view.

/signed

Minus Sign · Jul 02, 2006, 08:11 AM // 08:11

/signed. Time consuming and a VERY expensive habit, that of re-rolling your toons.

Cirian · Jul 02, 2006, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I don't have lots of skills. I have all skills

Besides Avarre, I also have a necro with some 2500k xp that I use for fissure/uw, and a ranger (deleted) for solo/group fow (had about 1000k xp). These characters needed elite skills and multiple secondaries, and I went and got them. That's part of developing your characters.

Avarre is my little gem, when I make other classes I make them to play. That means I get the skills I need on that character, whereas on Avarre I get everything because I can. If I made a chapter 3 class, I would never try to max it, I would just grab everything that I need for that character and cap more on a basis of requirement. I already know where to cap previous skills, so it's not a grind, just another chance to play the character I'm getting skills for and spending time on. And those skills will allow you to play the character even more.

We're so nearly on the same wavelength, but not quite

Instead of having a single maxed main character and some alts with the skills they need for a few builds, I like to spread the gameplay experience across six main characters and max all of them. Only then does the fun of creating builds begin.

It's a habit from playing party-based RPG's of up to six members; I created six personas going back... around 17 years or so now, which I take from RPG to RPG, each with their own name and personality, and they evolve a bit more with each game I play them in. Believe me when I say I understand roleplaying.

Currently, the only characters that I can use with my consolidated library of skills are pre-Ascended PvP characters in that psudo-PvE test environment, Isles of the Nameless. I can create a clone of a PvE character to test all sorts of combinations there, but it's limited to what I can fight and there isn't much scope for adventure either... I can't give it a proper run. I have no real interest in using the builds I make in PvP.

You've gathered all the skills on Avarre (well done by the way!

), but like I already said... I want to do it across multiple to get proper use out of the different primaries, some of which are Chapter 2 primaries and I may well find a Chapter 3 class suits one or two of my characters better as well, causing a re-roll. Replacing weapons and armour is a doddle, sharing money and inventory space across characters is also convenient when running multiple characters, but never sharing skills (like pre-Ascended PvP characters) is no fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuildWars.com

Guild Wars is a competitive online roleplaying game that rewards player skill more than time played.

This is the mantra that brought me to Guild Wars. All I want to do is get on with adventuring, capping new skills and exploring new areas, and not spend too much time repeating old content over and over to bring a character back up to speed with an old one. I see nothing silly about that.

Thanks for the support from everyone who thinks the same!

Dagoth Umbra · Jul 02, 2006, 08:00 PM // 20:00

THANK YOU OP!!! I have been wanting to write something like this for a LONG time, actually have before, but retards say things like "man, just pay 1k when you need a skill, its not that much". BS, to get even the skills I am pretty sure I need, for primary professions only, would cost me at least 50k. That is BS. Now, I differ from the OP in that I will not reroll a character, no way, no how. And my expectations of of anet giving us what we really NEED is very low, though them changing alliance chat to be for everyone raised that a little, but still, what I ask for is the bare minimum. I would like all skills and signets of capture to cost 100g. no rise in cost, whatsoever. That would be decent. Yes, we would still have to go buy skills if we change our secondary profession, but I could live with that. Anything higher than 100 is still too much, lower would be nice, but again, I am not that naive. reg. skills should be 100 because people like to change secondaries, so they cant be expensive. Elites should be 100 because we still have to go out and cap them, 1k AND having to cap them is BS. For those who say the low lvl arenas might be unbalanced, WHO SERIOUSLY GIVES A ****, I MEAN, IF YOU WANT TO RANDOM PVP, MAKE A FRICKING PVP CHAR AND PLAY IN THE RANDOM LVL 20 ARENAS, is that SO FRICKING HARD? /end rant

Dagoth Umbra · Jul 02, 2006, 08:09 PM // 20:09

And another thing, if I want to have every single skill for my primary and every secondary for that primary pve char, just to have them, then DARNIT, I should be able to without cutting TOO much into the money I am going to buy almost all the armors for all professions once they allow us to buy more char slots and make separate armor and special hat storage.