Curse

LifeInfusion · Jan 07, 2006, 02:37 AM // 02:37

A BRAND NEW idea: Custom (or dual classing) Henchmen

WARNING: This is very long. If you don't have fifteen minutes to read then don't post any criticism. Read the whole thing please. I spent roughly 6 hours thinking and typing this, so don't give a knee-jerk reply.
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Reasoning/Rationale
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I think perhaps we should have the option of creating custom henchmen with builds that are premade, like the ones in the PvP character creation window.
That way, we aren't stuck with the axe/sword chopper warrior(with no brain) , fire nuker elementalist, enchanter illusionist, and blood "battery" necro, wait...the ranger doesn't do much besides ignite arrows (lol).
Healer henches' builds are ALMOST fine, but the protector should get condition/hex removal. Seriously. It is annoying when you stand in poison to kill things and the henches die because they are unintelligent and stand in the poisonous swamps.

Current Henchmen
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Stefan -Healing signet, Griffon's Sweep, Sprint (lvl 3-17, swaps to charge at 20), Resurrection Signet, Power Attack, Balanced Stance, "Charge!" (lvl 20)

Orion/Cynn -Fire Storm, Incendiary bonds (lvl 8-20 only), Aura of restoration, Mind burn (lvl 20), Fireball, Fire attunement, Resurrection signet

Alesia/Mhenlo -Orison of healing, Heal other (lvl 8-17 only, swaps to word of healing), Healing touch (lvl 15-20 only), Healing breeze, Word of healing (lvl 20), Restore life

Reyna/Aidan -Kindle Arrows, Dual shot, Resurrection signet, Power Shot, Troll Unguent, Practiced Stance (lvl 20)

Dunham -Imagined burden (lvl 8-17 only, swaps to crippling anguish at lvl 20), Shatter hex, crippling anguish (lvl 20), Drain enchantment, Empathy, Distortion, Resurrection signet

Little Thom -Healing Signet, Executioner's strike, Resurrection signet, Wild Blow, Sprint (lvl 8-17 only, swaps to "Charge!" at lvl 20), Swift chop, "Charge!" (lvl 20)

Claude/Eve -Shadow Strike, Deathly Swarm, Resurrection Signet, Vampiric Gaze, Blood Ritual, Grenth's balance (lvl 20)

Lina -Aegis, Shield Hands (lvl 17), Protective Spirit, Shield of Regeneration (lvl 20), Restore Life, Reversal of Fortune

Devona -Mighty blow, Counter Blow, Resurrection Signet, Healing Signet,Irresistible Blow, "Charge!"

Proposition One
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Perhaps there could be an AI that adapts certain builds, or (something more viable) just have more henchmen with different builds (using premade builds for pvp).

The idea is, you can mix and match henchmen to make a well rounded team.
Lets' suppose you and your friend are both mesmers. You wouldn't want to have a necromancer "battery" that recharges you, you would want a henchman with death (minions)/curses (weakening, shutdown).
If you are a warrior and have a monk friend, you don't want to have to bring a warrior with axe/sword just for the sake of another henchman, you would probably want a trapper, warden elementalist, or a shutdown mesmer/spiteful spirit necro.

Let's say you are a necro and have a ranger friend. You would want a mesmer that does more shutdown, not illusion magic. Maybe you want a monk , elementalist, mesmer and warrior also.

Proposition Two
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An alternative to this idea would be the narrowing of builds of the henchmen. i.e. a "Illusion mesmer" and a "Domination mesmer" instead of just "Enchanter" (which doesn't really give an accurate description, he doesn't use enchantments for the most part).

Another instance is the necromancer and ranger. Multiple builds like minion master, well maker, trapper, interrupt ranger, beastmaster, etc are possible but all Reyna and Aidan are good for is ignite arrows, troll unguent, and dual shot/power shot (That's all I see them do). Most of the time the rangers just shoot and don't add anything to the team.

The fire elementalist build that is run on Orion the mage henchman represents the narrow mind of many people. They think elementalists are just good for fire magic. What about the earth, water, and air lines? I don't recall seeing Orion use anything other than fire magic.

The warriors (Stefan, Little Thom, Devona) do not use any stances whatsoever, they only use simple strategies like swift chop/galrath slash/final thrust, healing signet, and resurrection signet. They should use shouts besides Charge like watch yourself, fear me, for great justice, etc.

The monks, I have no problem with except their lack of condition/hex removal.

Lastly, it would be beneficial if the henchman had use of a secondary class, which gave me this idea in the first place.

Implementation
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The easy way to implement this suggestion is 30 or more henchman standing in a line, each with different skillsets. However, this would be very laggy on players and hard to use. Also, it would require a lot of space on mission and outpost maps to be devoted. Therefore, it is not viable.
The way this could be implemented is a UI that attaches on to the specific class of henchmen (Warrior/ Monk / Elementalist / Ranger / Necromancer / Mesmer), listing possible skill sets when highlighted.

As an alternative, a “default henchman” of no class with a menu akin to that of a merchant, with tabs for builds.

AI problems
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As to the problem foreseen with AI, it can be solved by using both a proactive and reactive approach. As for proactive skills, they are used as buffs so the henchmen use them whenever they feel like, triggered off by monsters on radar or other activation schemes. As for a reactive approach, skills that remove conditions/hexes, heal and protect (monks, in particular) would be activated after a condition/hex has been used.

This is viable because this scheme is how the AI uses monsters, so why wouldn’t it work for henchmen too?

Conclusion
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There are 30 different combinations of classes, and with about 4-5 attributes each. There ought to be a more diverse group of henchmen, because people make builds based on henchmen and end up narrow minded. It shouldn't be "people should be like henchmen" but not the other way around (*cough* at fire “nuker” Orion henchman copiers *cough*).

If we do a simple combination of 6C5, we get 30. However, there are 454 skills (resurrection signet and signet of capture don’t count), six primary attributes, and this makes for more variety. An E/Me is not the same as a Me/E and neither is a W/Mo and Mo/W. However, henchman builds are too simple, overused, monotonous, and outright an insult to the strategy of skills that makes this great game (like Magic the Gathering’s thousands of cards).

I can understand the limitations of AI, and even that of time spent tweaking for the sake of more variety, but please consider this for later chapters. It would increase the strategy of players and promote more creative, non-obvious builds.

Speculation as to possible builds for Player versus Enemy Environments (PvE)
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These are just ideas of some kinds of builds that could be used, as well as prospective skills (NOT skill sets, that's why there are multiple elites and more than 8 skills).

W/E (axe shock): Conjure Lightning/Whirlwind/shock, Watch Yourself!, cyclone axe, eviscerate, etc...
W/E (hammer shock): Aftershock, Earthquake, counter blow,
W/N (damage): Plague touch/Plague signet/weaken armor/signet of agony, final thrust, savage slash, pure strike, flourish, etc... -inspired by the Sand giants
W/R (Poisoner): w/ Poison lengthening blade or axe ; Apply poison, antidote signet, swift chop, cyclone axe, troll unguent, ... -inspired by jungle trolls
W/Mo (smite): symbol of wrath, judge's insight, strength of honor, rebirth, signet of judgement, executioner' strike, dismember, axe rake... -inspired by the frost griffons

E/N (interrupt slowdown): spinal shivers, chillbains, parasitic bond, conjure frost, plague touch, mind freeze ...-inspired by the jade scarabs and ice imps
E/N (Earth stronghold): Stoning, Aftershock, Whirlwind, Elemental attunement, ward against melee, ward against elements, armor of earth, enfeebling blood, parasitic bond, well of power, well of blood, insidious parasite, parasitic bond
E/Me (Turbulence): enervating charge, thunderclap, conjure lightning, energy drain, channeling, gale, ether feast, inspired hex, energy tap, spirit of failure, echo/arcane echo, air attunement
E/W (Rock the Richter scale): earth shaker, aftershock, armor of earth, ward against melee, watch yourself, ward against foes, stoning, counter blow, devastating hammer, belly smash

N/Me (debuffer): Enfeebling Blood, Deathly Chill, Weaken Armor, signet of humility, spiteful spirit...
N/Mo (minion master): Animate bone fiend, animate bone horror, animate bone minions, Heal area, verata's sacrifice, blood of the master, taste of death, healing seed, death nova
N/? (bloodsucker): order of pain, spiteful spirit, vampiric gaze, shadow strike, mark of pain, Deathly swarm, soul leech, feast of corruption, insidious parasite, well of suffering, well of the profane,
N/R (self sustaining-animal farm):Animate bone fiend, animate bone horror, animate bone minions,blood of the master, taste of death, charm animal, disrupting lunge, troll unguent, comfort animal
N/R (extra pain): order of pain, mark of pain, ignite arrows, spiteful spirit, plague sending, well of suffering, well of the profane, flame trap, dust trap, spike trap, barbed trap, grenth's balance

Me/N (Hell breaks loose): epidemic, plague touch, enfeebling blood, fragility, soothing images, arcane conundrum, migraine
Me/R (magician hate): distracting shot, punishing shot, savage shot, read the wind, cry of frustration, spirit of failure, channeling, drain enchantment, energy tap, energy drain, migraine, arcane conundrum, backfire, mind wrack, guilt, energy burn
Me/Mo (Rezmer): restore life/resurrect/rebirth, heal area, heal other, infuse health, ether feast, spirit of failure, channeling, healing seed,mend ailment, convert hex, inspired hex
Me/? (End of Monks):Cry of Frustration, Conjure Phantasm, Shatter Enchantment, shame/guilt, energy drain

Mo/N (monk blighter): Draw conditions, Plague signet, offering of blood, convert hexes, mend ailment, etc.
Mo/N (well and area high healing): Well of Power, well of blood, heal area, offering of blood, infuse health, healing seed
Mo/R (damage buffer): edge of extinction, symbiosis, strength of honor, judge's insight, troll unguent (maybe), Healing spring, serpent's quickness, melandru's resilience, martyr, remove hex
Mo/E (E for efficiency): Glyph of lesser energy, ward against harm, ward against melee, ward against elements, armor of earth (maybe), armor of mist, swirlign aura, blurred vision
Mo/E (E for electric): enervating charge, elemental attunement, blinding flash, windborne speed, glyph of renewal, *Protection skills*
Mo/Me (<3 energy):shatter hex, hex breaker, energy tap, energy drain, channeling, ether feast, inspired hex, inspired enchantment, Mantra of concentration, spirit of failure, drain enchantment, mantra of recall, echo, arcane echo

R/E (Incinerator): troll unguent, greater conflagration, conjure flame, flame trap, ignite arrows, fireball, immolate, mark of rodgort, incendiary bonds, elemental attunement, energizing wind, dual shot, called shot (finishing move)
R/W (Class Outcast): Bonetti's Defense, Fear Me!, disrupting chop, Eviscerate, throw dirt, apply poison, dryder's defenses,
R/W (pounding barbarian >_>) counter blow, disrupting lunge, charm animal, comfort animal, ferocious strike, hammer bash, belly smash, bestial pounce
R/Me (Interrupt Madman) distracting shot, punishing shot, savage shot, read the wind, spirit of failure, migraine, arcane conundrum, backfire, mind wrack, concussion shot
R/Me (trap FTW): flame trap, dust trap, spike trap, barbed trap, mantra of concentration, serpent's quickness, throw dirt, echo, arcane echo
R/N (Conditioner without Shampoo): Virulence, death nova, putrid explosion/well of the profane/well of suffering, Hunter's shot, pin down, Melandru's arrows, Poison arrow/apply poison, Incendiary arrows

*I don't play Mesmer or Ranger primary so I cannot really make any "original builds"

Will post more prospective build ideas soon. But the builds forum probably has many of these, so it is pretty pointless for me. I hope you get the idea.

Don't say this is an on-the-spot idea because I spent three days typing this outline out...

EDIT: spelling

Draco Hunt · Jan 07, 2006, 03:45 AM // 03:45

First proposition:
Ok it all sounds good i realy like the idea of customizing henchman but i think AI would be hard to adjust.
Second proposition:
Making the already exhisting henchman beter and make some extra with other kind of builds is a great idea.
Also giving them secondary professions is very cool.
The list you made of possible combinations good... but i think that there may be beter simpeler effective builds out there but that is for probibly Anet to decide.
Making new AI for new pre-fixed henchman is probibly the best solution. And to give these henchman pretty general asked builds is the most optional thing to do. This idea is great and i support it for the fullest.

/Signed

The Primeval King · Jan 07, 2006, 03:46 AM // 03:46

I agree with you, but if this was implemented then henchmen might become too important. If you had this much of a choice of henchmen, and knew what you were facing in the area, then you would have the perfect team for every single mission! Maybe ArenaNet didnt make alot of henchmen types because they thought it would add more of a challenge to the game.

Great job on the post though

Luca Blight · Jan 07, 2006, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Props on thinking through all this. I think this is one of those things that sounds good on paper, but executing this would be...vexing to say the least.

JiggyFly · Jan 07, 2006, 02:54 PM // 14:54

All of your suggestions were valid, and would probably work wonders to increase the effectiveness of the henchman, but the fact still remains Guild Wars wasn't made so that you could simply never interact with other players. The henchman were added because Anet realized that by seperating the world into game regions there would be downtimes since not everyone was clumped together, so they added the hechman for those times when groups weren't possible or when you didn't have the time to form one. I don't believe Anet ment for the henchman to ever get to the point where someone would say to themselves "I think I'm going to get the Domination Mesmer HEnchman instead of that guy looking for group", because afterall Guild Wars is a MMORPG...but not if everyone is off doing quests and missions with a party of npcs.

LifeInfusion · Jan 07, 2006, 04:42 PM // 16:42

In response to "it will make the game less cooperative (team) based"
Sometimes you might need a specific build (especially if it is not commonly played). i.e. rezmer, hex removal, a monk-well healer, warden etc.
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Also, I don't think it would be THAT hard to implement, monsters already have something like this kind of AI.

How can you tell? REAL people die to the Sorrow's Furnace dwarves (especially the djinns and the boss robot thing at the end). Things like the Stone Summit Elenmental Warden, Curses Necromancer, and priest show us that the AI is capable of more than "tank, nuker, healer, battery, pink bar maker (conjure phantasm), powershot/read the wind ranger" (ugh, I hate these so called categories) builds.

Additional Info (Motive for this thread):
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Stefan (wow, no sword skills, why is he using sword)
Healing signet, Griffon's Sweep, Sprint (lvl 3-17, swaps to charge at 20), Resurrection Signet, Power Attack, Balanced Stance, "Charge!" (lvl 20)

Orion/Cynn (Mind Burn??? what were they thinking)
Fire Storm, Incendiary bonds (lvl 8-20), Aura of restoration, Mind burn (lvl 20), Fireball, Fire attunement, Resurrection signet,

Alesia/Mhenlo (healing touch yourself)
Orison of healing, Heal other (lvl 8-17, swaps to word of healing), Healing touch (lvl 15-20), Healing breeze, Word of healing (lvl 20), Restore life

Reyna/Aidan (Aren't they so useless)
Kindle Arrows, Dual shot, Resurrection signet, Power Shot, Troll Unguent, Practiced Stance (lvl 20)

Dunham (That's nice, now interrupt... or something)
Imagined burden (lvl 8-17 only, swaps to crippling anguish at lvl 20), Shatter hex, Crippling anguish (lvl 20), Drain enchantment, Empathy, Distortion, Resurrection signet

Little Thom (um, that's not what axe is about... eviscerate please)
Healing Signet, Executioner's strike, Resurrection signet, Wild Blow, Sprint (lvl 8-17 only, swaps to charge at lvl 20), Swift chop, "Charge!" (lvl 20)

Claude/Eve (why necros are considered only good for "battery")
Shadow Strike, Deathly Swarm, Resurrection Signet, Vampiric Gaze, Blood Ritual, Grenth's balance (lvl 20)

Lina (Uh condition and hex REMOVAL)
Aegis, Shielding Hands (lvl 17), Protective Spirit, Shield of Regeneration (lvl 20), Restore Life, Reversal of Fortune

Devona (Hammer has potential but this needs a revamp somewhat)
Mighty blow, Counter Blow, Resurrection Signet, Healing Signet, Irresistible Blow, "Charge!"

Andy_M · Jan 07, 2006, 05:05 PM // 17:05

I think thats (the original post is a very good idea). Failing that I would like to see the AI upgraded so the Eles (Orion, Cynn) don't equip AoE spells, ect.

arbiter · Jan 07, 2006, 05:26 PM // 17:26

This is a good idea in my mind. I dont know how anet would handle it though. The ideas for henches might be too detailed and too many. If you could make the perfect team of henches it would hurt the idea of making a team of real people, but if you want any drops you would want to go with real people, so its hard to say. I think if the henchmen were upgraded in their skills and AI, and make a couple more were added it would be good without too much drastic change

Rafe · Jan 07, 2006, 06:44 PM // 18:44

I agree with all of this, but I think that I would rather have the AI improved before we start any of this customizing stuff. Look at them, they stand in the same maelstrom/firestorm/etc that all the enemies will run out of, doesnt that seem dumb?

Sorry, just had to go off on a mini-rant there.

benmanhaha · Jan 14, 2006, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Very nice, well thought out suggestion. I must say I hate all ranger henchmen. I would rather use Dunham over the ranger hench. I also don't believe this would decrease the amount of people playing together. If you are trying to do a quest and you can't find enough people why not fill out the party with henchmen that don't suck?

Now I don't think having 30+ henchmen hanging out is a good idea, I liked your idea of having like template henchmen.

Ele hench
Monk hench
War hench
Mes hench
Rng hench
Necro hench

Then from each of those branch off into other builds. You would have to make it so that you could take multiple henchmen of the same profession though.

Maybe, we could pick from a set of skills that we unlock through say faction, for a custom henchman. Now i'm not saying that we should give the henchmen all of our skills, but some of them at least. This could give people a chance to try out new team builds, even if your team isn't with you. Just a thought.

PieXags · Jan 14, 2006, 09:53 PM // 21:53

While I'm pretty sure this suggestion has been suggested before...(in not so many words), I'm not about to close this thread after so much work and thought's been put into it! Great job taking the time to write up such a well thought out, serious suggestion. I'm almost in tears (of joy) after reading this thread.

I think it's a great idea, henchmen are great and all...but for people to be able to expand their abilities and use their henchmen in more ways than we're used to with dual classes, different skills, etc---it's a wonderful idea. Well done.

Vilaptca · Jan 15, 2006, 12:34 AM // 00:34

A few things, but I'll start with what someone said about ANet possibly not wanting the missions to become so easy when each henchmen has the perfect build. A way to go along with this would be that at each town, henchmen would have a skillset compared to what should already be unlocked by a player at that point. That means, we wouldn't see henchmen packing elites until around the desert. It would also limit the builds people come up with for areas, so that I don't have a almost real Minion Master throughout the whole game, when you really shouldn't have the Verata skills until around the Southern Shiverpeaks, (yes I know you can cap them early from Verata himself.)

Another thing is, how does this affect the normal way we add henchmen to the party. At the moment, we have two monks, two warriors and then one of each other class to choose from when picking henchmen, it usually means when you make a team, you have one of each class. Will adding something like this allow us to have a team with 3 monks? Something to think about there, would ANet change the henchmen setup so that groups could do that. Or would they have keep the henchmen thing the same, 8 henchmen standing in town, 2 war, 2 monks, 1 of each other class, and then you can customize them, or would we just be able to make a whole group of necs?

I thought I had more, buts that all I could think of right now. Nice idea though, I group with henchmen 95% of the time, so would not mind something like this.

art_ · Jan 15, 2006, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by benmanhaha

Very nice, well thought out suggestion. I must say I hate all ranger henchmen. I would rather use Dunham over the ranger hench. I also don't believe this would decrease the amount of people playing together. If you are trying to do a quest and you can't find enough people why not fill out the party with henchmen that don't suck?

Now I don't think having 30+ henchmen hanging out is a good idea, I liked your idea of having like template henchmen.

Ele hench
Monk hench
War hench
Mes hench
Rng hench
Necro hench

Then from each of those branch off into other builds. You would have to make it so that you could take multiple henchmen of the same profession though.

Maybe, we could pick from a set of skills that we unlock through say faction, for a custom henchman. Now i'm not saying that we should give the henchmen all of our skills, but some of them at least. This could give people a chance to try out new team builds, even if your team isn't with you. Just a thought.

Bleh, i agree with variety in henchmen, but ive got to strongly disagree with the suggestion the Ranger henchmen are a waste of space. Yes they could have interrupts, but when u look at their sustained damage coupled with their ability to stay alive, they far out-perform the mesmer henches for example. My experience of Dunham is that he wastes all his energy keeping distortion permanently on and barely does anything. He's also picked up the nasty habit of running in first for battles, something i suspect he's learnt of Alesia. Reyna (and Aidan) on the other hand, are far more restrained and dont get them selves killed very often at all.

On the main topic, i would say giving maybe 3 subclasses for each hench type would be logistically easier to implement than giving totally customizing ability to the player.

PS: Orion gives Eles a bad name.

LifeInfusion · Jan 15, 2006, 02:12 AM // 02:12

The reason why i say that rangers are somewhat useless as henchmen, is because they basically do not do anything BUT damage. At least Dunham snares and removes hexes.

P.S. Henches dont talk, laugh at your jokes, know the way, do branching off strategies, or be your friend (unless you talk to yourself). You definitely want people, but sometimes people are not there (i.e. monks).

The idea is not to replace people, but rather provide an alternative in times of need INSTEAD of sitting around spamming LFG for an hour or two.

TheGuildWarsPenguin · Jan 15, 2006, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Smiter henchie, trapper henchie, water/air/earth henchie, blood/minion/curses henchie, mesmer henchies that dont just spam distortion I think are the only ones that should be added.

[DE] · Jan 15, 2006, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Don't be flaming me or anything but here is my two cents worth on the matter..

This is a massive multiplayer online role playing game, you play it with other people co-operatively. ANET is encouraging us to communicate in-game and to form groups with other players from across the globe. Henchmen are mearly back-up fighters. If your trying to get a group together for a mission and you can't find a much needed second monk you can grab one and go. Of course the henchmen would not have the skill level of an average player (or maybe its better then teh player you woulda picked up [lol!!!!]) but a henchmen is not meant to be your primary choice of a teammate. Now if Guild Wars was not a MMORPG I could understand the whole customize your henchmen idea. Lets say that ANET did implement your super smart henchmen idea. What would the result be? Everyone would be using henchmen and no one would be trying to team up with other players!! This would defeat the purpose of a MMORPG.

To sum it all up, Guild Wars was meant to be played with other players. Henchmen mearly server as back-ups.
As nice as it would be to have these super smart henchmen I believe that over all it would ruin the game since everyone would rely on henchmen and not enjoy the fun of playing with real people.

P.S. This is just my opinion and if you don't like it that's great, get over it.

m30wc0w · Jan 15, 2006, 05:39 AM // 05:39

I'd make an IWAY!

SaintGreg · Jan 15, 2006, 06:09 AM // 06:09

I would really like having the ability to pick exactly what type of henchman I want, but I think it might complicate things too much depending on how it were done. Incorporating secondary professions would be great, but not even just that, creating builds as you mention - maybe you want a ward ele, a minion master, and healing monk with you, and there could be henchman with preset builds for those types of roles.

At the very least though, the existing henchmen need to be relooked. Why the computer doesn't use 8 skills is beyond me.

Deathqueen · Jan 15, 2006, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Henchies were made more or less as a standby group, not to be your bestest buddies. As they stand they are sufficient used properly for any part of GW's, except the Genth missions after the Titan quest. I was a little shocked that I wasn't getting any level 20 henchies to do those with once I got to the 2nd quest.

Customizing them would just make things easier and this game doesn't need easier by a long shot, if anything it needs to be harder in many areas. I didn't find much of a challenge until I reached the desert area myself. Then things became more fun and challenging using henchies.

The only thing I would really like to see changed about henchies is that they be allowed to be used for FOW/UW, I was pretty disappointed when I finally got there having played the majority of the game with them to find out I could no longer use them there.

pappayaponta · Jan 15, 2006, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Ye, sure its a great idea. But maybe you shouldnt have so much to choose between and you could solo the whole game and do whatever you lie with henchies, but a really GREAT IDEA.