Curse

Tongloid Tarthwood · Jul 15, 2006, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

3) PvE chars become PvP chars in a PvP area

This is the only bit I have a problem with. If a PvE char becomes a PvP char, how are PvE chars supposed to get out of the battle isles, once they are in?

Dougal Kronik · Jul 15, 2006, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Leave via the ship on the map.

lyra_song · Jul 15, 2006, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Please read the thread, we've danced this dance already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tracydunklee

People think that it is unfair that PvE characters has all what seems to be the advantages in this game. Yet it seems very unfair if the PvP had the same choices when making there 2 minute character. PvE players has to buy, find or whatever for there upgrades for there armor or weapons. Not to say anything about upgrading their armor. Which PvP gets it for free and any upgrades. Just has longs as they are unlocked. Is that really fair to the PvE player?

We've already established that it is unfair but for the pvp character, in terms of equipment and armor.

Quote:

Anything I have even read, even from GW's said that a PvP character is a weaker character compaired to it PvE counter part. Personnally, a PvP charcter is for the lazy player. Someone who does not want to invest anytime in their character nor their Guild.

Please do not forget what Anet's gaming model is.

Time spent =/= advantage
Guild Wars is supposed to be about player skill.
The time invested in your character should be purely for VANITY reasons and should give you zero advantage in PvP.

lyra_song · Sep 10, 2006, 01:44 PM // 13:44

bump.

theres been a few recent threads discussing these ideas i proposed, so i think this thread desserves a bump because it encompasses a lot of things into one idea.

Horseman Of War · Sep 10, 2006, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tongloid Tarthwood

This is the only bit I have a problem with. If a PvE char becomes a PvP char, how are PvE chars supposed to get out of the battle isles, once they are in?

duh. if you cant figure this out, howd you even make it that far?

PvP- Only Characters will undoubtably be better on average than a pvE character

they always have maxed equipment, Like the above poster said- the pve characters are about vanity the pvp characters are about simple functionality.

It will take you a good amount of time to get your PvE character 'ready' for playing with the big boys.

If you WANT to spend time on your characters/account then you make pve... If you WANT to have everything available to you quicker then just play PvP toons.

Easy as that. Anet is not selling you lies, so quit whining like little kids.

Midnight08 · Sep 10, 2006, 03:16 PM // 15:16

/signed and i dont really PvP. The PvP environment was meant to be equal footing from the start, it has grown away from that somewhat and the above proposals would help to rectify this.

(and the reason for the PvE mode is not to get a advantage people, its to enjoy a storyline and play a non PvE game for a bit. I dont like pvp and if there wasnt a pve mode i wouldnt play. Even if i did like pvp i wouldnt want an advantage for grinding... this isnt 1 of those other games where the winner is the one with the most hours spend farming/grinding.)

Cineris · Sep 10, 2006, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Of course time spent in the game equals an advantage. Expecting to have the same options available to you when you open up the box as to when you've been playing for 20 hours is absurd. Even first-person shooter games, which are entirely about skill, typically pace a player in the equipment he acquires -- Starting off with every weapon in the arsenal blows the enjoyment of improving and getting different strategic and tactical options.

What Guild Wars advocates, and delivers on, is that playing 1000+ hours isn't going to grant you access to gear that's unquestionably better than the gear you can easily acquire on a 20hr run through the game. Is playing for all that extra time going to give you extra resources to get exactly the gear you want for your build? Sure. Ultimately though, those items are no more or less balanced than other easily accessible top-tier items.

What people seem to be advocating here is an extremely selective absolutist principle -- It doesn't seem to bother anyone that a person starts off an account with a limited set of skills and equipment. More and better options have to be unlocked via various means, even though ostensibly this is in violation of the principle that "time spent != advantage." Of course, advocating that people start right out of the box with all skills and equipment unlocked would rightly dismissed as absurd and due to an inappropriate sense of entitlement -- But so is this entire proposal. Despite the repeated assertions that "time spent != advantage" or that a PvPer shouldn't have to "grind" (aka, "play the game") there's remarkably little evidence to back up the assertion that PvE characters gain any advantage worth noting from the perceived imbalance.

Guess what? There's a fundamental asymmetry between PvP and PvE characters. There's no point in trying to completely "equalize" them -- They were designed to be asymmetrical. Unless you want to erase the distinction between the character types altogether you're not going to achieve parity. If you primarily play PvE there's no point in complaining that PvP characters get to slap on equipment that you would normally have to work to acquire willy-nilly -- Roll up a PvP character. Similarly, if you think PvE characters are getting an undue advantage -- Why don't you go make one and see how much of an advantage being PvE grants you in PvP?

lyra_song · Sep 10, 2006, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Hello! Welcome to the thread. If you read the whole thread you will find that almost all of your ideas have been posted and perhaps debunked already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cineris

Guess what? There's a fundamental asymmetry between PvP and PvE characters. There's no point in trying to completely "equalize" them -- They were designed to be asymmetrical. Unless you want to erase the distinction between the character types altogether you're not going to achieve parity. If you primarily play PvE there's no point in complaining that PvP characters get to slap on equipment that you would normally have to work to acquire willy-nilly -- Roll up a PvP character. Similarly, if you think PvE characters are getting an undue advantage -- Why don't you go make one and see how much of an advantage being PvE grants you in PvP?

I think they were designed to be assymetrical because the PvP chars were never intended to become the choice of pvp players. I think they were designed that way so PvPers would make a PvE char and play the game and build up that PvE char.

Guess what.

With the introduction of a Tournament Edition, those with PvP only chars are at a SEVERE disadvantage. They wont have money. They wont have access to anything outside of the Battle Isles.

These glaring imbalances are even more obvious when these players emerge.

Didn't you read what i wrote?

YES I WANT TO DESTROY ANY DISTINCTION BETWEEN A PVE and PVP CHAR in PVP MODES(functionally, not vanity wise).

They need to be completely equal because of the direction the game is going, its splitting down the middle more permanently, the two player types should not be allowed to have one advantage over another.

Thom Bangalter · Sep 10, 2006, 10:45 PM // 22:45

WTB: mods to lock this thread.

there is no difference between pve and pvp characters besides armor swaps, and vanity issues.

Evilsod · Sep 10, 2006, 11:13 PM // 23:13

So why do things still exist that could cause imbalance then?

They nerfed the Rockmolder to stop it been 20/20. But left the FFS alone.

They gave PvPers more choice with weapon mods. But shields are still extremely restricted in the way they only have 5(?) different combos whereas PvE shields can have +10 armour vs x mods.

All PvP weapons/items are restricted at req9. PvE players could enter using req7/8 mods, giving the same bonus at a lower req, such as running a tactics shield at req7 on a monk (not saying this happens but its a possibility).

What reason is there to make a PvP char with 2 weapons max when a PvE char can have any number of weapons for any situation? Same goes for armour swaps.

They've known about the last point since the beginning obviously but yet never saught to change it. Not to mention the rare, but still existant unconditional damage modded weapons with no drawback. They may be extremely rare, but having 1 of them in PvP is still an unfair advantage.

The truth itself · Sep 10, 2006, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

WTB: mods to lock this thread.

there is no difference between pve and pvp characters besides armor swaps, and vanity issues.

- Special PvE items, such as Nolani wands, HoD, -50 hp item, extra energy staff.
- Lower Req. weapons, 7 and 8, at max damage.
- Alot of more armors, and abillity to change mid-battle.
- Alot of more weapons.

Your right, there is "no" difference :S

Cineris · Sep 11, 2006, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Hello! Welcome to the thread. If you read the whole thread you will find that almost all of your ideas have been posted and perhaps debunked already.

I read every post in this thread, thanks. I didn't see that you debunked anything. You merely keep reiterating the same point as though repetition makes it true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Didn't you read what i wrote?

YES I WANT TO DESTROY ANY DISTINCTION BETWEEN A PVE and PVP CHAR in PVP MODES(functionally, not vanity wise).

So you're advocating that PvP characters have only a limited pool of equipment, where unlocking one item only allows one instance of that item to be used? It doesn't seem to me that you're in favor of that.

Ultimately, though, that's not even feasible because allowing PvE characters equal-opportunity to purchase items through faction would more than likely destroy the economy.

Does-it-Matter · Sep 11, 2006, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

PvP chars have access to ALL unlocked items including all skills, runes, weapon mods etc.

In order for a PvE char to match this, that character has to capture every elite and buy every single skill and buy expensive and overpriced mods if they want to even come close to the versatility in skills that a PvP char has.

This is unfair.

On the same note, PvE characters have access to a bigger weapon pool, more weapon slots, and the ability to swap armors while PvP chars do not.

This is also unfair.

You know, when both sides have an advantage that the other doesn't, to me that sounds like an oppertunity cost. And overall fair.

Call me crazy, but it seems like your flexability of choice.

Do you want something that allows you greater flexability, but requires more work (option A), or do you want ease and simplicity, but has less freedom (option B)?

It's really that simple.

Or do you complain that other people may make more money than you in their jobs, which require more work than yours might?

lyra_song · Sep 11, 2006, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cineris

I read every post in this thread, thanks. I didn't see that you debunked anything. You merely keep reiterating the same point as though repetition makes it true.

Lets go back to your post then:

Quote:

Of course time spent in the game equals an advantage. Expecting to have the same options available to you when you open up the box as to when you've been playing for 20 hours is absurd. Even first-person shooter games, which are entirely about skill, typically pace a player in the equipment he acquires -- Starting off with every weapon in the arsenal blows the enjoyment of improving and getting different strategic and tactical options.

Yes this is true. Time spent does give you an advantage in this game. Quite a few people have already said that, in fact a lot of people have said that and they want to KEEP that advantage.

Thats where i disagree.

Dont bring up the FPS analogy because thats ridiculous in this sense. We're talking purely PVP. If this was the 1 player mode of a game like Half-Life then yes, id agree, they pace you.

But in the multiplayer modes, even if the various modes require unlocking, Players will still have access to the same equipment, items, weapons, etc.

And yes i reiterate. Its rather annoying to have to reiterate, and its true that doesnt make it any more true. Thats what forum arguements tend to be about. But this is what this is, a war of opinion. So theres really no choice.

Quote:

What Guild Wars advocates, and delivers on, is that playing 1000+ hours isn't going to grant you access to gear that's unquestionably better than the gear you can easily acquire on a 20hr run through the game. Is playing for all that extra time going to give you extra resources to get exactly the gear you want for your build? Sure. Ultimately though, those items are no more or less balanced than other easily accessible top-tier items.

I agree and disagree. Yes its balanced with most weapons armor. But there have been some gamebreaking exceptions like the Lieut Helm (now fixed), the SOA Axe (now fixed), the HoD sword (now fixed), the Rockmolder (now fixed), Nolani Wand (now fixed), the FFS (still not fixed) as well as other really whacky items that only appear in PvE like the -50 cesta. I dont know much about the HoD axe though, so ill leave that alone.

The PVE char has a much much larger and varied pool of weaponry and armor to bring to battle and can SWITCH in the middle of battle, unlike the PVP char, who only has access to 2 weapon slots on the creation screen.

I hate to reiterate, but cant you see this is an imbalanced advantage?

If you have a full back + belt pouch + 2 bags of weapons and armor swaps vs my 4 items (2 offhands, 2 weapons), who has the advantage? who has more adaptability?

The only advantage that the PvP char has is skill selection, and this advantage can be overcome by the PVE char, given enough time.

Quote:

What people seem to be advocating here is an extremely selective absolutist principle -- It doesn't seem to bother anyone that a person starts off an account with a limited set of skills and equipment. More and better options have to be unlocked via various means, even though ostensibly this is in violation of the principle that "time spent != advantage." Of course, advocating that people start right out of the box with all skills and equipment unlocked would rightly dismissed as absurd and due to an inappropriate sense of entitlement -- But so is this entire proposal. Despite the repeated assertions that "time spent != advantage" or that a PvPer shouldn't have to "grind" (aka, "play the game") there's remarkably little evidence to back up the assertion that PvE characters gain any advantage worth noting from the perceived imbalance.

No, UAX and UAS has long been demanded by PvP players and is not an absurd idea. In fact its on sale at the GW store right now. Thats the reason i bumped this thread. Because this arguement is more important than ever.

In its current state, even a fully UAX PvP only char has a disadvantage vs a fully loaded PvE character with all skills and secondaries unlocked.

Thats a fact.

Go play the game with a PvP-only char as a warrior. You need a Elemental weapon, a furious, vampiric, maybe a bow or wand for building adrenaline. Have fun with your limited options.

Imo, the people who posted here fall into a some basic categories (hurray for vague overgeneralization)

1) People who agree that the two player types are NOT equal and WANT a change (Thats me)
2) People who agree that the two player types are NOT equal and do NOT WANT a change for one reason or another. (People like my buddy shadowfell)
3) People who DISagree that the two player types are not equal.

Quote:

So you're advocating that PvP characters have only a limited pool of equipment, where unlocking one item only allows one instance of that item to be used? It doesn't seem to me that you're in favor of that.

Nope. Im advocating a BIGGER pool of equipment for PVP characters OR a nerf on weapons that dont exist in the PvP character creation screen and a lock on the inventory so the weapons you are carrying in battle are what you have and you cant swap to other weapons and armor sitting in the inventory.

Quote:

Ultimately, though, that's not even feasible because allowing PvE characters equal-opportunity to purchase items through faction would more than likely destroy the economy.

The idea is for a PvE character to have equal access to all the stuff a PvP char has only in PVP MODE. PvE chars would still need their weapons for missions, quests, running around when they exit the PvP areas. I dont see how that would "destroy the economy" when we're talking about PVP and PVP only.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Does-it-Matter

Or do you complain that other people may make more money than you in their jobs, which require more work than yours might?

Bad analogy and a cheap shot.

PvP is a COMPETITION. There shouldnt be an advantage to any one side, but there is...The advantage goes to PvE simply because it can get everything the PVP character can get. But the PvP character cannot say the same.

Does-it-Matter · Sep 11, 2006, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Bad analogy and a cheap shot.

Cheap shot? *shrugs* I'm sarcastic often enough, I guess I don't even realize it. Also, the analogy does work, if you look at the simple basics its say, and not take it word for word.

Anyways, back to the matter at hand.

Quote:

PvP is a COMPETITION. There shouldnt be an advantage to any one side, but there is...The advantage goes to PvE simply because it can get everything the PVP character can get. But the PvP character cannot say the same.

Ok, you show me how a player can decide to make a Mesmer (not having one previously created as a primary) and have it ready to go (decently) for PvP in under a minute using a PvE route.

Show me how a PvE character can get a 20/20 Sundering, +30 Health, etc. weapon if they have no cash.

Show me how I can get the type of shield I want for my PvE character without spending lots of time/money searching.

Show me how I can get the runes (from minor to superior) I want for cheap.

Show me how I can change my armor design without spending a dime.

For every PvE advantage, PvP has one too.

---

Whether its versitility or ease / low (or no) cost, they are just elements of the game. A choice you make, like any other. Hell, you can even call it part of your "build."

A basic warrior will have more armor than a basic mesmer. So don't go toe-to-toe with a warrior, if you are a mesmer.

A basic elementalist will have more energy than a warrior. So don't get into "casting matches" with an elementalist, if you are a warrior.

A basic PvE character has more versatility than a PvP character, so don't make extensive armor-swapping, massive item-dependancy builds on a PvP account.

A basic PvP slot allows for more experimentation in a faster amount of time, with endless oppertunities for re-rolling and re-shaping. You can play around with different weapon combinations that would cost you thousands of platinum if you actually had to buy it. So don't try out different proffesions and item/armor combinations on a PvE slot.

Its a choice, it's an element, it's part of the game.

lyra_song · Sep 11, 2006, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Does-it-Matter

Anyways, back to the matter at hand.

Ok, you show me how a player can decide to make a Mesmer (not having one previously created as a primary) and have it ready to go (decently) for PvP in under a minute using a PvE route.

Show me how a PvE character can get a 20/20 Sundering, +30 Health, etc. weapon if they have no cash.

Show me how I can get the type of shield I want for my PvE character without spending lots of time/money searching.

Show me how I can get the runes (from minor to superior) I want for cheap.

Show me how I can change my armor design without spending a dime.

Sorry strawman. You cant.

--------------------------

But with enough time and money spent you can pvp with a PVE char and have an advantage over the PVP char. Thats the point.

No amount of time spent with a PVP char will equal the advantage that a built up PVE character will have.

Time spent DOES equal an advantage.

Which is what i want to change.

Quote:

For every PvE advantage, PvP has one too.

PVP characters only has 1 advantage and thats access to ALL the unlocked equipment and skills. But as ive said before, time spent can overcome this advantage with a PVE character.

Quote:

Whether its versitility or ease / low (or no) cost, they are just elements of the game. A choice you make, like any other. Hell, you can even call it part of your "build."

I dont accept that.

Quote:

A basic warrior will have more armor than a basic mesmer. So don't go toe-to-toe with a warrior, if you are a mesmer.

mantra of persistence, Ineptitude, Clumsiness, Soothing Images, Images of Remorse, Conjure phantasm.

Quote:

A basic elementalist will have more energy than a warrior. So don't get into "casting matches" with an elementalist, if you are a warrior.

Depends, if its a warder or a flash turret, then the warrior is useless anyway.

Quote:

A basic PvE character has more versatility than a PvP character, so don't make extensive armor-swapping, massive item-dependancy builds on a PvP account.

A basic PvP slot allows for more experimentation in a faster amount of time, with endless oppertunities for re-rolling and re-shaping. You can play around with different weapon combinations that would cost you thousands of platinum if you actually had to buy it. So don't try out different proffesions and item/armor combinations on a PvE slot.

Armor swapping should be disabled. Im not even talking about 1000 items for a PVP character. Im talking 4 weapon slots. Theres only 2 slots in the creation screen.

As it stands, thats all a PVP slot is good for right now. Experimentation. Completely agree.

Quote:

Its a choice, it's an element, it's part of the game.

With the release of the TE (the PVP only game), a simple "part of the game" no longer applies as an excuse for having an imbalance because we will start getting players who only have the PVP slot and do not have the PVE as a choice to them.

If a TE player is to be competitive with a fully loaded PVE player, then the playing field must be level.

Cineris · Sep 11, 2006, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Yes this is true. Time spent does give you an advantage in this game. Quite a few people have already said that, in fact a lot of people have said that and they want to KEEP that advantage.

Thats where i disagree.

That's where I disagree as well.

It seems to me that you only want to rectify the disparity between PvP and PvE characters in one respect, conveniently turning a blind eye to disparities in other respects.

I don't actually have a heck of disagreement over your actual proposal. Giving more items and more item choices to PvP characters is fine by me, as is the ability to customize PvP characters more without requiring recreation. But what it comes down to is that this is a request that's not driven by a principle, no matter how much you attempt to portray it as such. It's a request driven by a much more banal, "I want this" mentality and should be evaluated as such.

lyra_song · Sep 11, 2006, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cineris

It seems to me that you only want to rectify the disparity between PvP and PvE characters in one respect, conveniently turning a blind eye to disparities in other respects.

Please elaborate. Is it because this is only relating to PVP modes?

Quote:

But what it comes down to is that this is a request that's not driven by a principle, no matter how much you attempt to portray it as such. It's a request driven by a much more banal, "I want this" mentality and should be evaluated as such.

I'm not portraying anything. This is how i truly think. Sad isnt it? Believe or not, this isn't based on a simple "I want this" mentality as you call it. I believe in playing by the rules and fair play. I still believe in things called honor and sportsmanship in combat. As a martial artist, its part of how i think and been made to think.

This is an imbalanced that has long been in the game and has not been rectified and if Guild Wars PVP seeks to be a viable and true competitive outlet for gamers, then it should be, it must be, it has to be a level playing field.

Does-it-Matter · Sep 11, 2006, 04:46 AM // 04:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Sorry strawman. You cant.

Using examples to prove one point. I didn't sidestep your issue. It's called evidence towards my point.

Quote:

No amount of time spent with a PVP char will equal the advantage that a built up PVE character will have.

Time spent DOES equal an advantage.

And so does the fact that you get your mods/armor/weapons for free.

Quote:

PVP characters only has 1 advantage and thats access to ALL the unlocked equipment and skills. But as ive said before, time spent can overcome this advantage with a PVE character.

So the fact that you can constantly re-roll for free isn't an advantage? The fact that you start out max? None of those are an advantage to you?

Quote:

I dont accept that.

Completely your right, but that doesn't affect its validity.

Quote:

mantra of persistence, Ineptitude, Clumsiness, Soothing Images, Images of Remorse, Conjure phantasm.

Depends, if its a warder or a flash turret, then the warrior is useless anyway.

Perhaps I should have clarified, but when I refered to "basic" I was taking an "overall look" at the class and also not assuming any "anti-X" build. Sure, an elementalist can out-armor a warrior, but that's a specific build, not all elementalists are like that.

Quote:

Armor swapping should be disabled. Im not even talking about 1000 items for a PVP character. Im talking 4 weapon slots. Theres only 2 slots in the creation screen.

I agree that there should be four slots. I don't agree that you should restrict armor though. If you've read/seen Harrison Bergeron (I know I'm killing the spelling on that...) you may understand why. To summerize, I don't believe in restricting one thing, to keep it even with another.

If anything, boost up PvP to allow you to customize imported weapons (from PvE) and/or allow you to BUY (emphasis on buy) additional armor to swap.

Quote:

With the release of the TE (the PVP only game), a simple "part of the game" no longer applies as an excuse for having an imbalance because we will start getting players who only have the PVP slot and do not have the PVE as a choice to them.

I could say that if you're not buying the full game, you shouldn't be allowed access to all of the same features, but I'll hold my judgement on this TE installment until I see it implimented.

--

I agree with you on many issues, but I disagree with your methods. I don't believe hampering a PvE account in any way is viable. I would rather see a PvP orientation be increased (either adding a weapons customizer and/or armor crafter to battle isles.)

azunder · Sep 11, 2006, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Locking inventory: /notsigned. Just allow pvp chars to get create a backpack of stuff and it's fine.
Locking armor: /signed
Expand equipment options: /signed
Lyra's crazy idea: /notsigned. Let PvE characters have their fun. If they really, really need to buy get a skill, they can just roll a PvP char.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cineris

But what it comes down to is that this is a request that's
not driven by a principle, no matter how much you attempt to portray it as
such. It's a request driven by a much more banal, "I want this" mentality
and should be evaluated as such.

I disagree, the idea that this proposal is that there should be fair and equal footing during a competition. Yes, there may be some of that "I want this because I'm lazy" mentality in some of the people here, but should the proposal be scrapped because of this? Does it diminish the argument in any way?

Of course not.

Now, why are PvPers so against grind? Why do they want to get all the functional stuff now instead of working for it? After all, you could say that grind is part of any competition. Practicing strategies over and over can look like grind to some. And, in real life, don't athletes "grind" by exercising? What makes this different and acceptable compared to PvE grind? It's because competition (for recreation that is) is about self improvement. Practicing and exercising leads to improvement. This is the greatness we recognize in people who win these competitions, the fact that they were able to make themselves better at something.

A lot of the PvE grind, however, does not contribute to personal improvement. How do chest runs, UW runs and green farming improve your PvP strategy? You could even say that it eats up time that could have been used to practice instead. To some players, it's a barrier that stops them because they can't stand PvE. That's why PvE grind should not give any advantage at all to PvP. It goes against the spirit of competition.

A situation hasn't happened yet where a team wins the world championship because of pumped up PvE chars. But what if it does happen? Shouldn't we prevent it?

@Does-it-Matter
Yes, PvP chars and PvE chars have their own different advantages. But I don't think that it's fair that PvE chars have a bigger advantage compared to PvP chars. Given enough time, the advantage of more items is better than the advantage of fast and free items.

Now, if PvP chars also had the advantage of getting more items, you could say that PvP chars are better than PvE chars since they have everything PvE chars have for free. However, they're missing the one thing that all PvEers love about their PvE char: the ability to PvE.