Curse

Me And The Henchies · Oct 10, 2006, 11:08 PM // 23:08

People that have everything unlocked and have all that extra faction must get tired of having nothing to do with it right? Why not just let them unlock skins and such for fun? Make it a PvP-only type of thing, its not going to hurt anything.

Navaros · Oct 10, 2006, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

PvP focuses on function, not attire, you want to look good while fighting, then you're not fighting to win and you're not so much of a PvP character.

That's a rather bizarre argument. In reality skill and sucess level in PVP will have absolutely no bearing on if the characters of the good players look nice or not. Winners will always fight to win even in their Fissure armor.

Plus by that logic then every PVE character with Fissure armor/chaos axes etc. should be banned from participation in PVP areas seeing as they too are focusing on looks and not function.

Farming Balt faction should be a lot more respectable of an accomplishment than doing two-man 55HP UW farms (how most people get their Fissure armor). No reason why Fissure armor should for the most part be restricted to that and eBAYers rather than people who actually have to compete for it in real competition via winning Balt faction.

If the 10k faction cap would make Fissure armor too easy to get then they can simply remove the faction cap. The faction cap always been a totally 100% useless annoyance anyways.

Kool Pajamas · Oct 11, 2006, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Or make the unlock in steps. Like unlocking a minor a major rune before a superior you have to unlock a few levels to get one piece of armor for each profession.

Kakumei · Oct 11, 2006, 01:38 AM // 01:38

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Originally Posted by Terra Xin

Kakumei, allow me to introduce myself. My name is Terra Xin.

Sup.

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No, but common sense states that your posts should be relevant to the thread that you post them in. Strange, I make the impression that you should quote stuff that you make up, and then suddenly you go off on a random tangent and make reference to the rules instead?? OK... you're getting there, you have a hell of a long way to go, but you're getting there. You made a comment that was false, that just means you can't read, nothing to do with rules here.

My comment was false? I stated that I haven't seen a good argument against this; kindly explain how this is false.

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I already had that suggestion implied, the question is, how expensive until it becomes worth it's weight in effort?

Its worth in effort is entirely up to those that desire it. The people that currently have Obsidian armor in PvE are the people that desired it enough to work for it (or eBay it, but I'll leave that out of this discussion entirely).

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when you're unlocking items for looks only, then you're a PvE character. (and fyi, ALL current PvP unlocks have a useful purpose, none of the unlocks are considered for-show only)

Welcome to what I'm trying to change. Why can't vanity items be added to the Faction unlock list? There's certainly not enough to do with it as it is, as many PvP veterans will tell you.

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Like I have stated, PvP focuses on function, not attire, you want to look good while fighting, then you're not fighting to win and you're not so much of a PvP character.

Maybe I want to win with skill and style. How does that make me "less of a PvP character?"

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With reference to my statement above, the reason why colours aren't put into the locked/unlocked category is because unlocking them does not serve a useful purpose, more like a bonus while making a PvP character.

Bonus. Yes. I don't understand at all the rationale behind denying PvP characters bonuses if they're willing to earn them.

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My god, your reply and my quote don't even match, and yet you still managed to ask why? Why what?

Let's take a look at them again.

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Originally Posted by Terra Xin

Couple that reason with the fact that it is effortless for a PvPer to unlock anything and be able to use that for all future PvP characters, and maybe... just maybe you can get it into your head that this idea is unfair.

Emphasis mine. Now let's look at my reply:

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Originally Posted by Kakumei

Why? Because PvE players "earned" it? It's certainly not like grinding out faction is earning it oh no. Still looks pretty equal to me, especially considering all the perks PvE characters have in PvP that they certainly shouldn't.

I certainly hope it makes a little more sense now.

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Anyway... READ! I never said, not at single, that PvE players 'earned' their armour, but they did put in effort into it to actually have the materials and money and then head to a crafter who 'crafts' the armour for them. In all cases, the area in which the crafter is located costs additional money to get run there, or spend an hour or two trying to get a party, or add on another hour trying to hench your way over there. Taking the same amount of time to do it in Factions, What's even better, all future PvE characters have to do it again also.

You may not have used the word "earned" specifically, but it's the general argument against this. PvE characters "earn" their vanity skins, it just wouldn't be fair for PvP characters to have them too.

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Nope, not like for PvP. 1 minute, MAX and you have 15k armour for any character whatsoever.

One minute? Just one minute to grind out all that faction? Especially if you would have to unlock one piece for one profession at a time?

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This ISN'T about whether or not PvE characters should have 15k armour just because they earned it,

No, it's about whether PvP characters should have the right to earn it their own way. You people go on and on about how everyone should have "choices" in this game, I'm just trying to add more.

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it's about whether it is right for PvP characters to have 15k armour/rare skins because they can earn it ONCE and Forever.

Still earning. I don't honestly see the difference. I could even say that it would be harder to unlock it via PvP, since you actually have to have skill, rather than two-manning the UW for weeks on end, though if you manage to live through that drudgery of hitting SS over and over and over again I guess you deserve Obsidian armor.

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A simple child can make the difference between unlocking through faction and buying through money.

I sure can't. Evidently I'm a child now?

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To make an even comparison of "earned" faction, armour unlocks would have to be unbelievably expensive, the time it would take for a PvPer to unlock a 15k armour would have to be equal if not longer for the time it takes for a PvEer to make a character, gather the items, otherwise we're better off making PvP characters just for the look.

Okay. Sounds fair to me.

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attention everyone, please ignore Kakumei's posts^^.

The forum equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "la la la i can't hear you i'm not listening".

And here I thought I was the child.

Theus · Oct 11, 2006, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Owned,Terra Xin,Owned.

Alfrond · Oct 11, 2006, 01:55 AM // 01:55

I'm mostly a pve player, but I still don't see anything wrong with pvp players using faction to unlock new skins for weapons and armor. I've worked hard to get some nice skins and some 15k armor, but having a pvp player use faction to get themselves something pretty does not hurt me in any way. The value I attach to my own items and the time I spent getting them is not affected by the actions of other players. Besides, with the faction system the pvp players would have to work hard for vanity just like me, they would simply being doing their "grinding" in a method more preferable to them while I do mine in a method preferable to me.

However, the exact "prices" at which the pvp players should have to pay to unlock the skins is a little more tricky. To make it more equal to the time spent on the pve side, it would make since to raise the faction limit so things like FOW armor or zodiac skins would be horribly expensive. I also recognize the issue that pve players must get armor and skins repeatably for different characters while pvp players would get to unlock for all their characters. However, I don't see anyway to fix this without making the system pointless for pvp players. PvP characters are remade so often that making the unlocks character specific would be needlessly painfull.

Really, I think the issue boils down to simple kindness. PvP players are regular people just like PvE players and they would also like their characters to look nice. They would like to unlock skins with faction. Why should we stand in their way? I think its about time we end this silly feud between PvE and PvP. We need to get rid of the idea that an addition to one side somehow harms people on the other side. We should want both types of players to enjoy themselves.

P.S While we're on the subject, how about some emotes for pve players? Skins = Vanity for PvE. Emotes = Vanity for PvP. Maybe letting the exchange go both ways would make some angry pve players feel better. On the other hand, I can see some dedicated HA players becoming very angry if they were to see a pve player who has never even been in RA flashing a wolf.

Terra Xin · Oct 11, 2006, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

No reason why Fissure armor should for the most part be restricted to that and eBAYers rather than people who actually have to compete for it in real competition via winning Balt faction.

Oh god, after reading this, i'm more opposed to this idea than I previously was. Yes, you are absolutely right 55-man UW and buying off of Ebay are signs of how FoW armour is not earned, but that's no different to a person who has earned rank 9 just by doing Iway. Is that any different to a person botting in RA? All in all, transferring such accomodies into the PvP side will also have any problems associated with that transferred. Its as if you're trying to say that grinding for PvP gives you more of a title that is "earned" than you would have if you had done it through PvE? So to reply:

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Farming Balt faction should be a lot more respectable of an accomplishment than doing two-man 55HP UW farms (how most people get their Fissure armor).

Botters/Leechers/AFKers - Zaishen Trappers/Iway/Vimway... are all signs of "Respectable" Balth Faction Farming? No. There are problems in everything that is in GuildWars, but we need suggestions that will calm down such areas, we can discuss about whether you want fries to go with your drink... some other time.

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Plus by that logic then every PVE character with Fissure armor/chaos axes etc. should be banned from participation in PVP areas seeing as they too are focusing on looks and not function.

That was not the logic I was trying to convey. In reality, you could have the best set of armour for your character in the game, but when you can't even make a build that is effective for team play, or even killing, then there is no relation of respectability between your armour, and your skill. With reference to Iway and how most of those players still suck at PvP.

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Originally Posted by Kakumei

My comment was false? I stated that I haven't seen a good argument against this; kindly explain how this is false.

If that wasn't simple enough, then I give up.

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You may not have used the word "earned" specifically, but it's the general argument against this.

Stop right there. I just finished stating that this wasn't the general argument. This is really getting annoying. I may be the one running around yelling "la la la I can't hear you" but I still make the effort to reply to posts with some kind of flare in mind. Remember about the random tangent thingy I was talking about^^?

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PvE characters "earn" their vanity skins, it just wouldn't be fair for PvP characters to have them too.

To repeat myself, this is not the general case. Oh, actually, Navaros made a good point about how it's not the case.

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Still earning. I don't honestly see the difference. I could even say that it would be harder to unlock it via PvP, since you actually have to have skill, rather than two-manning the UW for weeks on end, though if you manage to live through that drudgery of hitting SS over and over and over again I guess you deserve Obsidian armor.

Two instances: Iway and Zaishen Trappers... skill? erm... no. Though I believe Iway got the nerf bat when HA was made 6v6. I have 700k faction, gained in 3 months, that was through pure grinding using a rit build I honestly believe should be nerfed... But it got buffed instead, so I have no idea what those developers are thinking.

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I certainly hope it makes a little more sense now.

Since I already stated that earning was not the focus of the argument... probrably not.

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I sure can't. Evidently I'm a child now?

That was a farily simple example. Like... VERY simple example and you still missed the bar. If you couldn't see the comparison, then you can't be a child. The situation was that it can even take a child to make a comparison. Sinc you just stated that you couldn't, I'm not really sure what to make of you now...

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The forum equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "la la la i can't hear you i'm not listening".

*sigh* actually it's the rl equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting... whatever it was children shout. The forum equivalent is basically what I had already said.

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And here I thought I was the child.

So you thought you were a child before I made this post? Darn, I just wasted my time for nothing.

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Originally Posted by Navaros

If the 10k faction cap would make Fissure armor too easy to get then they can simply remove the faction cap. The faction cap always been a totally 100% useless annoyance anyways.

If this was the original suggestion on the table, then I would agree to that. But there are many problems in PvP that should be dealt to first, to make it 'worthwhile'.

I'm going to make a prediction. If Anet does read this, and if they do agree to it, then I will say "welcome... botters and farmers. We have easy Balth FF builds that will get you your faction in no time. Don't like playing? Go AFK instead! Don't waste countless hours grinding in UW or selling your gold on Ebay, sell your entire account and retail it as the PvPer's dream. Play now!"

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Originally Posted by Alfrond

Really, I think the issue boils down to simple kindness. PvP players are regular people just like PvE players and they would also like their characters to look nice. They would like to unlock skins with faction. Why should we stand in their way? I think its about time we end this silly feud between PvE and PvP. We need to get rid of the idea that an addition to one side somehow harms people on the other side. We should want both types of players to enjoy themselves.

... Fine... whatever. I made my pitch. Let's see how this idea flies.

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Originally Posted by Theus

Owned,Terra Xin,Owned.

Theus, I'm a Mesmer, I counter everything...

Dougal Kronik · Oct 11, 2006, 03:31 AM // 03:31

What if they allowed PvP characters to unlock the 15k/FoW skins with their Balthazar Faction.

Then when they reroll their PvP character they lose the unlock of 15k/FoW skins.

The PvP characters then have something to strive for to use with their Balthazar's Faction.

A never ending cycle of earning faction and cashing it in to unlock armor skins.

This becomes closer to what a PvE character has to do when they want 15k/FoW armor. Go and earn it on that character!

And give my PvE characters emotes for Grandmaster Cartographer, Protector, Legendary Survivor, Incorrigible Alehound, and all other maxed titles.

Navaros · Oct 11, 2006, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

after reading this, i'm more opposed to this idea than I previously was. Yes, you are absolutely right 55-man UW and buying off of Ebay are signs of how FoW armour is not earned, but that's no different to a person who has earned rank 9 just by doing Iway. Is that any different to a person botting in RA? All in all, transferring such accomodies into the PvP side will also have any problems associated with that transferred. Its as if you're trying to say that grinding for PvP gives you more of a title that is "earned" than you would have if you had done it through PvE? So to reply:

Botters/Leechers/AFKers - Zaishen Trappers/Iway/Vimway... are all signs of "Respectable" Balth Faction Farming? No. There are problems in everything that is in GuildWars, but we need suggestions that will calm down such areas, we can discuss about whether you want fries to go with your drink... some other time.

That was not the logic I was trying to convey. In reality, you could have the best set of armour for your character in the game, but when you can't even make a build that is effective for team play, or even killing, then there is no relation of respectability between your armour, and your skill. With reference to Iway and how most of those players still suck at PvP.

I'm going to make a prediction. If Anet does read this, and if they do agree to it, then I will say "welcome... botters and farmers. We have easy Balth FF builds that will get you your faction in no time. Don't like playing? Go AFK instead! Don't waste countless hours grinding in UW or selling your gold on Ebay, sell your entire account and retail it as the PvPer's dream. Play now!"

No one would bot for Fissure armor because they know Anet would ban their bot account long-before they acquired Fissure armor. Hence the "bot for Fissure armor" fear is a non-issue.

It is incorrect so say that using IWAY or Vimway to get to Rank 9 is not respectable. That has always taken way more skill, effort and dedication than farming the PVE UW ever will. Yes it is way different than a person botting in RA, as that is illegal not to mention that person is putting in no work, skill or effort. Despite your anti-IWAY zeal, all IWAYers have always had to put in a ton of work, skill and effort to do it well.

Anything involving competing vs. other real, unpredictable humans for success will always be more respectable than competing vs. stagnant AI bots.

I'd have a lot more respect for someone who acquired Fissure armor via IWAY Balt faction unlocks than for someone who farmed PVE UW for it.

You are right that your armor has no relation to your skill; however that does not equate to a reason to forever keep PVP characters condemned to ugly armor.

Agree with you that there should be no faction given for farming Zaishen bots. Solution: make it so beating Zaishen bots does not give faction.

Terra Xin · Oct 11, 2006, 04:18 AM // 04:18

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Originally Posted by Navaros

No one would bot for Fissure armor because they know Anet would ban their bot account long-before they acquired Fissure armor. Hence the "bot for Fissure armor" fear is a non-issue.

What you think you know and what actually happens are two different things.

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It is incorrect so say that using IWAY or Vimway to get to Rank 9 is not respectable. That has always taken way more skill, effort and dedication than farming the PVE UW ever will. Yes it is way different than a person botting in RA, as that is illegal not to mention that person is putting in no work, skill or effort. Despite your anti-IWAY zeal, all IWAYers have always had to put in a ton of work, skill and effort to do it well.

It takes more effort and *cough* dedication... but skill? NO! Countless times I have seen Iway builds in RA, flaunting the R9 emotes... then dying, and then blaming the team because they lost, using his/her rank as a shield against flames. Countless times I have seen Iway, yes IWAY people flash their emotes every second of gameplay, and then during the match, calling the other team noobs and throwing other such insults, and then standing over the person they had defeated and using their emote again... this is a little off-topic, however. My pitch was to say that Iway builds are the perfect comparison to 55/UW, except such 55 builds cannot flaunt their recognition as effectively as R9 can.

As for botting being illegal. Care to quote your source? It's against the EULA, but botting isn't illegal. If it was, people would be prosecuted - which they aren't, which makes you wrong. The fact that botting takes no effort or skill - that's already provided by the fact that you're botting - please don't go repeating yourself.

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Despite your anti-IWAY zeal, all IWAYers have always had to put in a ton of work, skill and effort to do it well.

That's totally incorrect, it takes no skill to play Iway, perhaps during the first instances where Iway first arrived, other than that, it is a very simple build to deploy.

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You are right that your armor has no relation to your skill; however that does not equate to a reason to forever keep PVP characters condemned to ugly armor.

Don't make fun of my PvP characters, their armour looks fine to me.

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Agree with you that there should be no faction given for farming Zaishen bots. Solution: make it so beating Zaishen bots does not give faction.

I never said anything about no faction for farming zaishen... And you've doubled up on what you thought I said, you just slapped "solution" onto the second repetative.

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Originally Posted by Dougal Kronik

Then when they reroll their PvP character they lose the unlock of 15k/FoW skins.

See, I would agree to this, but a PvPer needs the ability to switch characters, and I'm not sure how that fits in here. There has to be a better solution other than permanent/temporary unlocks.

There are other threads that wanted the same benefits that PvP players have. PvE characters were suggesting that their 15k armours should only have to be bought once, so that when you salvage the materials you get a 100% gain from what you had to do to craft it. Of course, noone agreed to that idea. If this idea was implemented, on the assumption that the unlock was permanent, then PvE characters would want the same thing, and if that idea was implemented, it will cripple the GW economy.

Kakumei · Oct 11, 2006, 05:48 AM // 05:48

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Originally Posted by Terra Xin

Stop right there. I just finished stating that this wasn't the general argument. This is really getting annoying. I may be the one running around yelling "la la la I can't hear you" but I still make the effort to reply to posts with some kind of flare in mind. Remember about the random tangent thingy I was talking about^^?

You should probably go ahead and explain what the hell the general case is because I read all your posts in this thread three times over and I still have no goddamn idea what you're getting at with your meandering and insulting posts.

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*sigh* actually it's the rl equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting... whatever it was children shout. The forum equivalent is basically what I had already said.

I, uh, rest my case.

Edit: Wait a second. Waaaait a second. Your case seriously cannot be that "oh no people will bot for it", can it? Because that is pretty much the only recurring theme I can get from what you're saying.

Alfrond · Oct 11, 2006, 05:45 PM // 17:45

I feel we got kinda off track while discussing whether IWAY and 55-monking take skill, dedication, and effort. I feel we should just skip over this debate because words like "skill" and "effort" are really rather subjective. Obviously, some people are gonna feel that some players don't deserve their rewards because they got them in methods that they personally don't approve of. Others might disagree. Instead of trying to decide if IWAY players or 55 monks deserve vanity skins, we should look at the two groups (pve and pvp) taken as a whole so as not to pass judgements on individual builds or methods of farming gold and/or faction.

This debate really comes down to this:

Should pvp players be able to unlock vanity weapon and armor skins with faction?

Debates about bots, leeching, builds that require no skill, overpowered builds, repetitive farming, and whether pve or pvp is superior really shouldn't play a role in answering the main question. Right now in pve, people get vanity items in ways that break the rules (using bots to make money, ebaying items). Similar things will probably happen in pvp if they are allowed to unlock vanity items (in a different way of course). However, this should not convince us that pvp players do not deserve vanity unlocks. We should not let the negative actions of a few convince us that honest hard working players should be denied certain rewards.

Kakumei · Oct 11, 2006, 06:28 PM // 18:28

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Originally Posted by Alfrond

I feel we got kinda off track while discussing whether IWAY and 55-monking take skill, dedication, and effort. I feel we should just skip over this debate because words like "skill" and "effort" are really rather subjective. Obviously, some people are gonna feel that some players don't deserve their rewards because they got them in methods that they personally don't approve of. Others might disagree. Instead of trying to decide if IWAY players or 55 monks deserve vanity skins, we should look at the two groups (pve and pvp) taken as a whole so as not to pass judgements on individual builds or methods of farming gold and/or faction.

This debate really comes down to this:

Should pvp players be able to unlock vanity weapon and armor skins with faction?

Debates about bots, leeching, builds that require no skill, overpowered builds, repetitive farming, and whether pve or pvp is superior really shouldn't play a role in answering the main question. Right now in pve, people get vanity items in ways that break the rules (using bots to make money, ebaying items). Similar things will probably happen in pvp if they are allowed to unlock vanity items (in a different way of course). However, this should not convince us that pvp players do not deserve vanity unlocks. We should not let the negative actions of a few convince us that honest hard working players should be denied certain rewards.

This actually sums up the issue pretty well.

I say yes, give PvP players the chance to earn vanity stuff.

And why not? Go ahead and give that guy who worked hard for his Kind Of A Big Deal title an emote too.

I don't see anything wrong with recognition of efforts.

Kassad · Oct 11, 2006, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Look, if you pvp guys want rare weapon skins and 15k/FoW armour for pvp by buying it with faction, no problem, but then the pve guys must get something too, like say, missions and quests give fame.

Kool Pajamas · Oct 11, 2006, 08:35 PM // 20:35

PvE characters already get to keep their FoW armor. You make him and get to keep him for as long as you want. PvP characters are deleted all the time. You cant really keep him forever because you have to reroll in order to put on different runes or weapons.

Still havent seen any good argument against this.

Nickhimself · Oct 11, 2006, 08:39 PM // 20:39

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Originally Posted by Terra Xin

Yeah, and if you read what you had just typed, a PvPer shouldn't worry about what their armour looks like if the focus is PvP...

PvP doesn't have the luxuries of gathering flash skins or non-constructive items such as ale and bean cakes. If your opponent dies, that is enough.

Sorry, that's not how people work. No one wants to look at something ugly, or the same exact thing forever. No one.

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Like I have stated, PvP focuses on function, not attire, you want to look good while fighting, then you're not fighting to win and you're not so much of a PvP character

So, championship fighters in real life such as boxers, wrestlers (we all know it's fake, but they're aggressive and gritty like a normal fighter would be), or any style of martial art that is practiced in sanctioned events go into the ring looking like 3 day un-washed trash?

Oh wait, no. No they don't. They usually baby themselves up before going into a fight so they can look good on the cameras. Likewise with immediately after the fight when they're frantically trying to clean themselves up for post-fight photo shoots.

Terra Xin · Oct 11, 2006, 08:52 PM // 20:52

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Originally Posted by Kakumei

You should probably go ahead and explain what the hell the general case is because I read all your posts in this thread three times over and I still have no goddamn idea what you're getting at with your meandering and insulting posts.

You can't use that on me, I asked you to explain yourself first... and I'm still waiting. If you need help finding where it was I had asked you to do such a thing, I can quote it for you if you like.

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Edit: Wait a second. Waaaait a second. Your case seriously cannot be that "oh no people will bot for it", can it? Because that is pretty much the only recurring theme I can get from what you're saying.

yeah, I think you and me are done for now.

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Originally Posted by Alfrond

I feel we got kinda off track while discussing whether IWAY and 55-monking take skill, dedication, and effort. I feel we should just skip over this debate because words like "skill" and "effort" are really rather subjective.

Fine. Let's move on.

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Originally Posted by Kassad

Look, if you pvp guys want rare weapon skins and 15k/FoW armour for pvp by buying it with faction, no problem, but then the pve guys must get something too, like say, missions and quests give fame.

No. If you're going to ruin the uniqueness of armour and rare skins for PvE players, then I would suggest that PvE players should only need to buy their armour once also, it will then be no different to that of a PvPer. Either that, or go with that which has already been suggested, and implement temporary unlocks, if where the character becomes deleted, then so will his/her armour.

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Originally Posted by Kool Pajamas

Still havent seen any good argument against this.

Do not post here if that is all you are going to say! You will either wait outside of this thread, or contribute something that YOU think is argumentative, stop the repetativeness... please.

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Originally Posted by Nickhimself

Sorry, that's not how people work. No one wants to look at something ugly, or the same exact thing forever. No one.

Well. I don't mind. My PvP characters re-roll everyday, so it's no real bother that armour isn't sometihng that I would care about. And please read, don't insult my armour...

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So, championship fighters in real life such as boxers, wrestlers (we all know it's fake, but they're aggressive and gritty like a normal fighter would be), or any style of martial art that is practiced in sanctioned events go into the ring looking like 3 day un-washed trash?

Why on earth would you compare 3 day un-washed trash with PvP armour? Vanity, that's all you are... away with you!

Dougal Kronik · Oct 11, 2006, 09:42 PM // 21:42

So would it be better to have temporary unlocks for PvP characters, meaning each character would have to accumulate Faction to unlock high level armor skins.

If not, what does the PvP only (or mainly) crowd want to do with the unspent Faction after they have unlock all the high end armor skins?

Franco · Oct 11, 2006, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Most pvp characters that are made will be deleted after a short time so no point i think..

Theus · Oct 12, 2006, 12:00 AM // 00:00

The only vibe I get from Terra Xin's are posts of that of..

"OH EM GEE MAH POOR E-PEEN!"

So?Give the PvP'ers the ability to buy certain skins for armor.No ones going to die if this occurs.