Curse

tuckerotl · Oct 25, 2006, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Reason: The game design of PvE effects for titles is contrary to initial (proclaimed) underlying principles of Guild Wars game play, initial (and ongoing) promotions for Guild Wars, and the player base, which Guild Wars (supposedly) sought.
Any change to game play, which yields a significant advantage for time spent in game over casual players is contrary to the claims of ArenaNet about Guild Wars, and should be prevented/rescinded.

From press release regarding Guild Wars debut at E3 2003 (http://www.arena.net/news/press/pr_22_apr_03.html):
"Mike O'Brien, the creator and architect of Battle.net, points out 'Our vision has been to create a game that rewards skill and inventiveness rather than hundreds of hours of play, so we've built Guild Wars from the ground up to be a balanced environment where players of all skill levels can compete for recognition and prizes.'"

From Gamasutra interview with Guild Wars producer Jeff Strain, in the online article "Social Game, not Social Life? ArenaNet on Guild Wars and the “Casual” MMORPG" (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20...len_01.shtml):
"JS: I think there's different types of rewards. You either reward them for time – that is, investment. The RPG reward. Alternatively, you reward them for their skill, which is the strategy game reward. Some companies reward people for money. There's some companies online which will power-level for you, which is just a conversion of money for time. I think that games that reward time, and particularly games that reward extreme amounts of time, appeal to a fairly narrow subset of the overall population. I think people appreciate a game where they feel their skill as a gamer and the choices that they're making are actually making the difference. I think that appeals to a lot broader group.

JS: You'll often hear us say that Guild Wars is a game without the grind. However, if you want to spend 100 hours trying to get a specific upgrade for an item, like a dragon-tooth hilt and a wyvern skill scabbard for your sword, that's fine. You have a specific goal in mind, and you want that item. What's not fine is “at level 20 I can access this dungeon, and at level 30 I can access that dungeon and there's a 1000 hours between them”. Obviously, the goals are shorter than that, or you just wouldn't do it… but we very much differentiate types of time sinks. And that differentiation is if it's for fun, or whether it's to arbitrarily take and stretch the 70 hours of content you have for game and stretch it over a thousand hours. Is it for fun or is it to try and get people addicted, so that you can collect another month of subscription fees?

You have to be able to make a judgement call. You look at the activities players are doing, and divide them into “People do that because it's fun” and “People do that because they have to”. Let's keep the stuff that's fun."

From online interview of Jeff Strain by "Finger" at Telefragged.com (http://www.telefragged.com/interviews/guildwars/):
"Jeff Strain: Player-vs.-player in Guild Wars is a tremendous amount of fun, but Guild Wars is not designed to appeal only to PvP players. The cooperative missions and quests in Guild Wars are the beginning of a story arc that spans numerous expansion chapters for the next several years. Since Guild Wars is a skill based game, rather than a game in which only those who have thousands of disposable hours will ever see the "cool" content, we can design each of these new chapters around the assumption that all players have reached the maximum level, or "ascension." This means that all of the ongoing content, whether through new chapters or streamed live into the existing game, is enjoyable by everyone, and we don’t have to water down the content by dividing it among the "elite" players and the more casual players. Gamers who enjoy cooperative or even solo gaming will find Guild Wars a refreshing change from endless FedEx quests and level grinding, even if they never venture in the competitive play areas."

From the Guild Wars web site (http://www.guildwars.com/gameplay/synopsis/):
"You don't have to spend countless hours on a leveling treadmill to get to the interesting parts of the game, because combat is designed to be strategically interesting and challenging right from the beginning. You don't have to spend hours running around the world to prepare for a quest, because Guild Wars allows you to instantly travel to the beginning of any quest that you've previously unlocked."

"The game is designed to reward player skill and teamwork, not time spent playing, so you won't need to spend hundreds of hours leveling up your character to compete."

Compared to:
From "Guild Wars Insider - Issue #01" (http://www.guildwars.com/insider/issue01.html):
"Earning ranks in some titles will now give you in-game bonuses. One example of this new type of title is the Lightbringer. When displayed, this title gives you damage reduction and extra damage against demons. There will even be some PvE-only skills you can learn that become more powerful with each rank of the Lightbringer title.

We’ll also be updating some existing titles this way. For instance, after Nightfall releases, you’ll actually have a chance of successfully removing a magic component, like a Fiery Sword Hilt, without destroying the item it’s attached to. The Wisdom title (earned by identifying items) will improve your ability to do this."

If you agree that the implementation of PvE effects for titles are at best not in the spirit of Guild Wars game design, and potentially a significant disadvantage for casual players then please sign below.

If you disagree, please post a valid reason why.

Shendaar · Oct 26, 2006, 12:59 AM // 00:59

I must say that I am not thrilled either about this new "feature". I have no interest in having to get a title so I can successfully recover a mod from a weapon and not destroy it.

/signed

AW Lore · Oct 26, 2006, 02:48 AM // 02:48

/unsigned.
we dont even know actually how much will the titles affect gameplay, wait for the game and the new feature to come out and see how much does it actually changes.

Quote:

If you disagree, please post a valid reason why.

we dont know how much will the titles really affect the game.
we know nothing about the lightbringer title nor the "skills it affects"

besides, the game is going to come out in a few days, wait until the game comes out and we find out actually what do they do, and after that (give it a week or two before all new title´s effects are found) and then you can grab the pitchfork and the torch.

pst, this probably will get locked.

Trakata · Oct 26, 2006, 03:04 AM // 03:04

I agree with AW. Let's see exactly how the Title effects work before deciding we don't like them. I don't like the sound of it either, but I'm willing to give the system a chance.

/unsigned.

draxynnic · Oct 26, 2006, 03:15 AM // 03:15

It's sort of a yes and no case.

The salvaging, while I would prefer for it to be available for everyone, does fall into the category of things that don't *strongly* affect your power. Yes, it means you may be able to get slightly better equipment together by being able to mix and match your mods better than is currently possible... but at the bottom line, the base set by collectors items is good enough to be competitive. Grinding for a title is, IMO, not that much different to farming for that perfect mod - it provides a small benefit, but it's not something you have to do to be competitive. (That said, part of me does feel that it's a bit rude that something I hadn't been paying attention to is suddenly important, while those people who do do things like deliberately shift their rares to a particular character to push their Wisdom track are suddenly getting a freebie.) One thing I would like to see, however, is improved salvage kits that can imitate a particular level of Wisdom, just so that the benefit isn't entirely restricted to the title-seekers - they just get it a little cheaper.

The Lightbringer title is a bit more disturbing - I suspect the bonus to damage and the exclusive skills will turn out to be relatively minor rather than gamebreakers (I predict the skills will be on the same level of power as existing ones, so they're extra options rather than extra power... and it's already estabolished that you do have to work a little to collect skills in GW). The problem I see, however, is that it could be used as a form of discrimination similar to that caused by fame emotes in Heroes' Ascent - I can see groups refusing to allow anyone to join who doesn't have a particular level of the Lightbringer title, and depending on how the title is achieved, that could lead to being forced to grind to complete the story. And that would be a problem.

Rathcail · Oct 26, 2006, 03:20 AM // 03:20

I don't care as long as I can play through the game without having any special title effects.

If the game forces us to grind for the title at some point in order to proceed with the story, then we'll have a problem.

Thom Bangalter · Oct 26, 2006, 03:21 AM // 03:21

/unsigned for lightbringer.

/signed for wisdom seeker.

Unsigned for lightbringer solely because we have no idea how to actually get the title. For all we know it's really easy to get and something that progresses at a reasonable level for everyone as the game progresses.

/unsigned for wisdom seeker, because I pvp and couldn't give a crap about identifying items other than to merely have the title, It's rather unfair that I can't choose what to salvage unless I start identifying some golds.

AW Lore · Oct 26, 2006, 03:51 AM // 03:51

from GW main site:

Quote:

Title System Changes
The Treasure Hunter and Seeker of Wisdom titles now confer a benefit to players who earn them. For each rank of either title earned, the chance of an item not being destroyed when salvaging a magical upgrade component is increased by 1 percent from a base of 75 percent.

so, players with the title will receive a small perk regarding players that dont have it. if wisdom is 5 and hunter one is five also (i believe, im not sure) then the max would be 85%

personally, i believe the percentages are not "high" enough to pick up the pitchfork and the torch, then again, im sure some people will be "Outraged" because of that.

shaolin mind trick · Oct 26, 2006, 03:54 AM // 03:54

/signed

GW should always stay: skill > time

Polgara Darshiva · Oct 26, 2006, 06:33 AM // 06:33

/Signed

This goes against everything they've said in the past.

If they go back on this what's to stop them from going back on some of the other things that makes Guild Wars the balanced game we all love?

I'm seriously miffed about this.

Da Scotty · Oct 26, 2006, 07:56 AM // 07:56

/signed

bigwig · Oct 26, 2006, 11:12 AM // 11:12

We're talking about miniscule, % points per level of title. Give me a break. This effects the gameplay in no way.

Terra Xin · Oct 26, 2006, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigwig

We're talking about miniscule, % points per level of title. Give me a break. This effects the gameplay in no way.

Exactly. Nothing is suffering from this implementation and noones dying over this idea. Just leave it.

Thallandor · Oct 26, 2006, 11:27 AM // 11:27

/not signed

Navaros · Oct 26, 2006, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Quote:

The game is designed to reward player skill and teamwork

Right there it shows why these effects should never be removed. There are almost no good player rewards in Guild Wars. They need to add more rewards, not make less. The title rewards are a good start but they need to give more stuff to title holders.

Yay I have a 50k faction cap yet I can't spend the Faction on any good rewards. How about some Fissure armor via Faction unlocks or Shards as has been suggested many times.

They need to give rewards for every title, and make them huge rewards.

Malice Black · Oct 26, 2006, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Wisdom title being earned <~~that cracks me up (buying any golds 1k) plz

I'm going to give it a few weeks before making up my mind.

Retribution X · Oct 26, 2006, 12:41 PM // 12:41

/unsigned.

Treasue hunter also does this. I spent LOTS of cash getting that title, and I apprecieate the chance to not destroy the weapon.

Stemnin · Oct 26, 2006, 12:53 PM // 12:53

/neutral

This just goes against WHY I play this game, but I shall wait and see about how this affects gameplay.

broodijzer · Oct 26, 2006, 12:58 PM // 12:58

/unsigned

how is someone with a 20% more chance in not destroying a weapon stronger than you?

Pandora96 · Oct 26, 2006, 01:05 PM // 13:05

/unsigned

This isnt going to force anyone to do anything. It's just rewarding the people that spent loads of cash doing loads of chest runs. The percentage isnt going down for the rest of us. Just going a LITTLE bit up for those that spent hours doing this.