Curse

Embodiment Of Gaia · Jun 14, 2006, 08:50 AM // 08:50

I think you look too much at the "benefits" of your idea, to see and value of the negative sides of this idea. (In fact you even ignored some of them)

The way Dyes and Runes work on your essence armor is lame. Just buy all dyes and runes from your profession from a trader and let them absorb them in your essence armor. Wow! Accomplishment! Next to that it will ruin the current economy on Dyes and Runes, cause if I understand your concept, it would mean you only need to buy them once.

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Originally Posted by Tuoba Hturt Eht

Define "spoiled/rich players" ?

It is suggested that this armor be made available in different price ranges, so that the not so rich players can afford the functionality of this essence armor as well.

Which means that, everyone who plays Guild Wars would be able to afford this Essence Armor, which means that everyone in Guild Wars will benefit from this concept armor, if implemented.

Maybe it was a bit blunt of me to put it like that. Anyway first in GW(Prophecies Campaign), looks of armors where bound to the stats they came with. There were lots of complains about that from the community, because most people wanted the same stats, and therefore lots of characters looked alike. Anet listened to that and with Factions stats where no longer bound to looks. Imo a great update that works pretty good to give a more distinct looks to characters across Cantha (I really hope Prophecies Armors will soon be changed as well). Does this really need another change? Imo the addition of a ‘wardrobe’ that will store up to 4 different armor sets, will give enough variation in looks and stats you can get, without causing imbalance. Why? I think it still would be very hard to get all the armor stats for casual players with an Essence Armor. You do realize that there are already 6 different types of armor stats (and it will probably increase after Chapter 3 comes out)?

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Actually, it does kinda matter in PvE.
For example:
- a warrior might wish to change into Sentinel stats before venturing off into an area full of mobs with elemental attacks.
- a monk might wish to change into the set which gives extra armor while conditioned if the monk is venturing into an area full of mobs which applies conditions
- etc

How can you make sure that the price is not too expensive that rich players can buy all stats with ease and poorer players also are able to get all the stats of armor, without farming for it? You actually said yourself that these stats do matter in PVE, so wouldn’t this idea lead to imbalance in the game then?

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Mate, let me ask you:
Does it "feel" real that our characters can:
1. adjust their attribute points freely?
2. take so many slashes, stabs, chops, slices from various weapon before dying?

Nice question. It actually feels "real" to me, because those are essential game mechanics. This game wouldn’t work well, without them. Your idea however, is not essential to the game mechanics, and therefore not comparable to these 2 points.

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I am confident that if ANET decides to implement this, they can think of a fitting explantion of why the Essence Armor is here.
Besides that, I believe that the community of GuildWarsGuru who agreed with this idea can help contribute ideas to make this work out.

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Do we ask:
"How the Seer infuses our armor to protect us against the Mursaat?"
"How Glint opened portals to teleport us here and there?"
"How the Vizier (undead lich) summoned the boat from the depths of the ocean?"

First you express your confidence in Anet (and the community) to come with a good back story about it and then you say that we shouldn’t take some unexplained mysteries in the story of GW to serious either. (btw, your first question is actually explained in the game

)

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We merely suggested that this Essence Armor smith be placed in the realm of Lyssa, since Lyssa is the godness of Illusion, and we figured that changing looks would be associated with her.

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She is a Godness of Tyria, do we need to question her abilities?

First you say that the essence armor doesn’t need to come from Lyssa, but when I ask how she could do that, you answer as though the armor does come from her. Oh and btw yes she is a Goddess of Tyria(and Cantha), not the Goddess of Tyria/Cantha, in other words she can’t just do anything (would make the other gods a bit unneeded).

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Originally Posted by Embodiment of Gaia

Stat-wise, I don't see the need for it.

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Mate, you do not see the need for it, but that does not mean others does not see the need for it, aye.

And my explanation for that was right in the next sentence (you even quoted that line later). So why separate that line then? First you ask of people that disagree, to explain themselves. So when I actually do, could you please not respond like this? I think you should not break posts up this little like you did, because it results to some contradictive answers.

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This is the whole idea of this concept, to accumulate as much as possible.
But does it "gets too far" ?
I think it is up to ANET to decide if "this idea goes too far".

You know what? I think so too

(and I think Anet disagrees actually).

I can understand why you think this is a good idea, because all players would ‘benefit’ from this, as you say it. But there is more to that. I think it’s a good thing to not be able to ‘have it all’ in a RPG. Just choose your armor(s) wisely, and respect what you already have. Just wait for Anet to give some extra storage for armors, and it will be fine.

Tuoba Hturt Eht · Jun 16, 2006, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Thank you all for all the feedback.

There might be a 2 methods to implement this "Essence Armor" concept, the first is the original method as proposed in the first post of this topic, the second is suggested by kyro27.

I think the second method, as suggested by kyro27 could be a much more better implementation, but I could be wrong.

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Aye, floppinghog, the issue you brought up has been addressed by Priest of Sin:

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1.5k Version:
Absorbs all 1.5k armor, all primary colors, all minor/major runes.

15k Version:
Absorbs all 15k armor, 1.5k armor, all colors, all runes.

Lyssa's Version:
Absorbs all armor (FoW, 15k, 1.5k), all colors, all runes.

But, much thanks for the feedback you have provided.

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Originally Posted by floppinghog

for 15k possibly it should beable to absorb major runes + minors, but not superiors.

I believe 15k versions should be able to absorb runes including superior runes.

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Ok, I believe kyro27 here has a very good alternative method to implement this new concept of "Essence Armor".

To summarize what he wrote:
Instead of crafting a new set of "Essence Armor" for our characters, we "infuse" two (2) Armor Pieces together with an "Essence Rune" plus paying some "infusion fee" instead.

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Originally Posted by kyro27

You buy the essence armor for w/e u want. you buy a rune to apply to w/e base armor you look like, and then if you want to change part of it, you buy the 1.5k version of it and theres like a 5k fee of adding the stats to that piece of armor. ex.

you have stone skin gauntlents but want them too look like 15k glads gauntlents. you buy 1.5k stone skin and pay the 5k fee to add those 15k gladiator gauntlents. when you want to change them, thers a little drop down menu when u click on ur armor, that has apearance, dye color, stats.
5k for essence rune
5k for armor
1k for runes
1k for dye

I belive this method could be better than the original one, aye. Will work on that later.

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Aye, what M C H A M M E R is proposing, could very well be described as a "mobile armor closet".

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Originally Posted by M C H A M M E R

This armor wouldn't be armor...it would be a storage for armor, that could change its stats/appearence by into another armor. Say I had 15k glads...15k kurz and 15k lux. I was wearing my essence armor( at the time glads) but needed to switch, so I clicked on the armor pieces, and selected from a dropdown window which I wanted it to be...not that complicated IMO

Personally, I would prefer the original method, or the alternative proposed by kyro27. This method seems much more expensive, and not very flexible compared to the other 2 methods.

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All rights, it is debating time:

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Originally Posted by Embodiment Of Gaia

I think you look too much at the "benefits" of your idea, to see and value of the negative sides of this idea. (In fact you even ignored some of them)

Aye, are you refering to the Dyes and Runes?

Anyway, I think it would be better if you could elaborate the value and negative sides of this concept in detail, if you wish to convince me that this concept Essence Armor is really that bad.

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The way Dyes and Runes work on your essence armor is lame.

I would say, this would kinda depends on how our perspective of viewing things is.

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Just buy all dyes and runes from your profession from a trader and let them absorb them in your essence armor.

That is the main purpose of this concept "Essence Armor", to collect and absorb all.

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Wow! Accomplishment!

Let us refer to the following image:

As one can see, this is the current price list (as of the time when this post is being typed) of dyes. There are 8 types of dyes, as shown in the list above.

In order to achieve total freedom of colour customization for the character with the "Essence Armor", 4 copies of each dye must be "absorbed" by each of the 5 armor pieces.

8 types of dyes, 4 copies of each dye per armor piece, 5 armor pieces total.
That would be 8 x 4 x 5 = 160 dyes bought, and absorbed into the "Essence Armor"

Out of those 160, 20 of them would be Black Dyes, which would costs 20 x 9k = 180k alone.

To provide a more precise calculation, let us look at the prices of the dyes:
Blue - 150 x 4 x 5 = 3k
Green - 150 x 4 x 5 = 3k
Purple - 110 x 4 x 5 = 2.2k
Red - 180 x 4 x 5 = 3.6k
Yellow - 120 x 4 x 5 = 2.4k
Orange - 100 x 4 x 5 = 2k
Silver - 750 x 4 x 5 = 15k
Black - 9k x 4 x 5 = 180k

Total costs for purchasing all the dyes alone would be 211.2k, bear in mind this does not yet include the "absorbing fee" for each bottle of dye to be "absorbed" into the "Essence Armor".

Regarding the "Absorbing Fees", let's say:
1k for non Silver, Black
3k for Silver
5k for Black

That would be around
140k for non Silver, Black
60k for Silver
100k for Black

Additional "Absorbing Fees" would total up to 200k, add it up with the total cost of acquiring all dyes, which amounts to 211.2k, the total cost to achieve total freedom of color morphing would be around 411.2k. Remember that the prices of dyes fluctuates, the cost could very well be 500k+.

For Runes, the prices would vary according to Profession type.

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Next to that it will ruin the current economy on Dyes and Runes, cause if I understand your concept, it would mean you only need to buy them once.

First, how do you define the economy as "ruined"?

The way I see it, it would actually "improve" the economy of Dyes and Runes, not "ruin" them.

See the explantion as writen above, sales of dyes for "non-popular" colours would be boosted, if there are many people who are interested in achieve "total freedom of colour morphing" via the "Essence Armor", more people would end up purchasing all the dyes, instead of just the few popular dyes.

The same would apply for Runes.

Actually, how does one define an economy to be ruined?
In this case, the economy for Dyes and Runes.
Would ruined meant extremely low prices for all dyes and runes, or extremely high prices?

What if the prices are not too expensive, and not too cheap?
Would that be called a balanced economy?

Please do let me know which one is ruined, which one is balanced, aye.

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Maybe it was a bit blunt of me to put it like that.

Its all right, mate. No worries.

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Anyway first in GW(Prophecies Campaign), looks of armors where bound to the stats they came with. There were lots of complains about that from the community, because most people wanted the same stats, and therefore lots of characters looked alike.

Aye, very true.

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Anet listened to that and with Factions stats where no longer bound to looks. Imo a great update that works pretty good to give a more distinct looks to characters across Cantha (I really hope Prophecies Armors will soon be changed as well).

Agreed. Back then, only the ubar rich players who can afford Obsidian Armor have this "advantage" of having "Armor with same looks but any stats they wanted".

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Does this really need another change?

Well, might be too early to tell, hence this is what the forums are for, to collect feedback from the public, to find out what the players think about a certain possible new concept, etc.

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Imo the addition of a ‘wardrobe’ that will store up to 4 different armor sets, will give enough variation in looks and stats you can get, without causing imbalance.

Mate, people will always ask for more, once you give them players a "wardrobe", next they will complain the storage capacity for the "armor wardrobe" is extremely limited, and will want to request, demand, petition ANET to increase the storage capacity of this "armor wardrobe", aye.

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Why? I think it still would be very hard to get all the armor stats for casual players with an Essence Armor. You do realize that there are already 6 different types of armor stats (and it will probably increase after Chapter 3 comes out)?

Aye, this might be true.
First, how would one define a "casual player" as?

Let us calculate the total cost of acquring 6 sets of armor with different stats:
1.5k per armor piece, 5 armor pieces total, 7.5k total per piece
NOTE: Some armor only costs 800 per piece, hence 4k total
I will take 7.5k as the higher average for ease of calculation
7.5k x 6 = 45k

45k would be the total cost for acquring the 6 sets of armor with 6 different armor stats, we have not added in the "absorbing costs" for these 6 sets of 1.5k armor.

NOTE:
We have 2 possible methods of "absorbing" armors:
1. Craft Essence Armor first, then absorb other armors into it
2. Infuse 2 existing armor pieces together, infused armor pieces became an essence armor piece

I think the second method could be more economic and flexible.
Now let us return to the "Absorbing Fees":

If the "Absorbing Fee" for the 1.5k armors would be:
2k per piece, 5 pieces total, 10k total per one set

1st method, it be: 10k x 6 = 60k
2nd method, it be: 10k x 5 = 50k

So, for about 100k, a player can have an Essence Armor that is able to change into either of the 6 armor stats. But this cost does not include the cost of Purchasing Runes and its associated Absorbing Fees yet.

I am not sure how much gold a "casual player" have in their storage vault, though.

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How can you make sure that the price is not too expensive that rich players can buy all stats with ease and poorer players also are able to get all the stats of armor, without farming for it?

Well, through research, I guess. ANET would have access to the statistical data for this, statistic such as how much gold a player has, how much time that player spends playing on Guild Wars etc.

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You actually said yourself that these stats do matter in PVE, so wouldn’t this idea lead to imbalance in the game then?

I did mention it would matter, but the difference are not that significant until it would cause imbalances in the game, aye.

For example, my canthan born monk is running around with 3 pieces of Canthan Collectors Armor with 60AL, the head piece and sandals are not 60AL. No other additional bonuses on them. Am I complaining? Am I imbalanced? Well, again, it depends on one's perspective of seeing things.

NOTE: I am not a "poor player", but a "cheapskate".
Will use this armor for my canthan monk until I reach the various 15K armor crafters in Cantha.

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Nice question. It actually feels "real" to me, because those are essential game mechanics.

Exactly. At the moment, this new concept "Essence Armor" does not feel real to you, or those who oppose this concept, simply because it is a new concept, and not an "essential game mechanic" yet.

Now, imagine if our RPG characters are unable to change our secondary professions when Guild Wars was first released, then suddenly, some one suggests that we can change our secondary professions, how would you feel?

Would you support such an idea, or would you oppose it, like how you oppose this concept of Essence Armor right now, aye?

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This game wouldn’t work well, without them. Your idea however, is not essential to the game mechanics, and therefore not comparable to these 2 points.

Again, imagine that our RPG characters are unable to change their secondary professions, unable to change our attribute points as freely, then someone suggests that we can change our attribute points, change our secondary professions.

Would you oppose those suggestions again, saying these are not essential game mechanics, and therefore not needed?

NOTE: Immerse yourself in this possible scenario, imagine how you would feel.

Now, imagine when a year ago, when Guild Wars was first released, and the concept Essence Armor is already in the game, as one of the functioning "game mechanics", how would you feel?

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First you express your confidence in Anet (and the community) to come with a good back story about it and then you say that we shouldn’t take some unexplained mysteries in the story of GW to serious either. (btw, your first question is actually explained in the game

)

Aye, both are possible methods to resolve the matter. Have a good back story, or just leave it as an unexplained mystery.

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First you say that the essence armor doesn’t need to come from Lyssa, but when I ask how she could do that, you answer as though the armor does come from her.

Well, I was replying to your question, aye.
Though both methods could be examined, either the armor does indeed comes from Lyssa, or not.

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Oh and btw yes she is a Goddess of Tyria(and Cantha), not the Goddess of Tyria/Cantha, in other words she can’t just do anything (would make the other gods a bit unneeded).

Aye, my bad.
But I still think as one of the Gods in Tyria / Cantha, they should be quite powerful.

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And my explanation for that was right in the next sentence (you even quoted that line later). So why separate that line then?

Separate which line? Are you refering to this paragraph?

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Stat-wise, I don't see the need for it. The difference in stats of all max armor mainly affects PVP, it does not make that much of a fundamental difference in PVE. The only good purpose imo, is for players that take PVE chars into PVP.

I separated them because I wanted to reply to each sentence that ended with a full stop, aye.

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First you ask of people that disagree, to explain themselves.

I need to understand why people would oppose this idea, hence I would like to read detailed posts describing what they think, how they feel about this concept Essence Armor.

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So when I actually do, could you please not respond like this?

The feedback you have contribute to this topic is invaluable and I really appreciate it, I am sorry if I offended you in the way I replied to your posts.

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I think you should not break posts up this little like you did, because it results to some contradictive answers.

Mate, this is Sardelac Sanitarium, the Suggestions Forum of GuildWarsGuru.com, I think that by doing so, new ideas will be generated. Try not to think of them as "contradictive answers", but instead possible new ideas, proposals, suggestions etc.

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You know what? I think so too

(and I think Anet disagrees actually).

Aw, you think I have gone too far with this concept.
But, I really do not know whether or not ANET agrees or not agrees with this concept, since I have yet to see any representative from ANET posting in this thread, telling me to stop writing, since it will not happen, ever.

Until that happens, I will continue to work on this concept idea, gather supports from like minded people, debate against points presented by people who oppose this idea, aye.

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I can understand why you think this is a good idea, because all players would ‘benefit’ from this, as you say it.

Thanks. I appreciate that you could understand how I think. Cheers, mate.

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But there is more to that. I think it’s a good thing to not be able to ‘have it all’ in a RPG.

Aye, I would respond to this sentence by saying: "Guild Wars ain't our regular RPG".

Oh, by the way, I think Guild Wars already have a "have it all" concept.
If you character is able to afford the gold and skill points, you can basically "have it all" all the skills, normal and elite.

That would be 450 for core and chapter 1 skills, and another 300 for chapter 2 skills, the total would be 750 skills at least.

Mate, if you think it is a good thing to not be able to "have it all" in a RPG, what do you think of the skills acquisition system of Guild Wars?

It is basically a "have it all", if one can afford the gold and skill points, aye.

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Just choose your armor(s) wisely, and respect what you already have.

Aye, that is what I am doing now.

Cheers.

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Just wait for Anet to give some extra storage for armors, and it will be fine.

Aye, been waiting for one whole year for ANET to increase our storage capacity.

Of course, I will continue to wait.

Again, thank you all for the feedback you have all contributed to this topic.
All feedback provided is invaluable and it is much appreciated.

BowLad21 · Jun 16, 2006, 05:16 AM // 05:16

At this point in time, 1.5k armor can carry superior runes. Why would I buy 1.5k essence armor if it could only hold minor/major runes?
/notsigned
1.This gives more reason to farm, less reason to RP
2.Encourages the people who are too weak to carry only 2 armor sets.
3.Moves the focus of armor from the crafter to the one Goddess.

-3. mentions amor crafter focus. If I made you a set of armor, in an RP world, I would be po'ed if you went to some higher being and destroyed my hand-made armor for something that's a "cheap copy" (In my [crafter]'s opinion).

Lady Lozza · Jun 16, 2006, 08:14 AM // 08:14

My apologies, while it sounds like a brilliant idea, I personally do not like it.

When selecting armour we should ultimately be considering functionality. Where functionality is redundant we consider asthetics. Why should this be changed? Our choices have consequences, expensive ones. If we decided to change our armour later, we have to buy a new set, if we delete an old one out of lack of storage space and then decided we want it back we have to buy it. If we make a mistake with runes, dye, etc we have to PAY for it. This makes players THINK about their armour choice. Why change that by having people moving around saying, "whoops, made a mistake, doesn't matter anyway because I have to have this to merge with my 1337 armour anyway". Certainly, armour functionality (assuming you have max) isn't all THAT critical but what you want to turn armour buying/deciding into is a check list where all you have to do is tick the boxes. If anything you are making armour LESS personal by wanting to do this.

You want freedom? I think that would be best served by Anet giving us "wardrobe" room so that we can keep our 5, 6, 7 suites of armour rather than having to get rid of them because we are out of storage.

Your proposal is one that requires players to spend ridiculous amounts of time farming (or resort to ebay) just to show how 1337 their morphing armour is. It is NOT an somthing for endgame players to strive for. Just another ridiculous addition to that long list of farmables. If you want to collect cool armour, sure, fine, go ahead, I love armour, I'd love to have more of it ingame, however you have to understand that choosing to collect armour (like collecting greens) means that it is going to take up at least some form of stroage space, that you are going to have to make some decision as to what colour and runes to put on it, and you are going to have to PAY for it.

Add morphing armour and the next thing you will want is morphing weapons. Honestly the idea is ridiculous. Decisions are half the fun of the game. Make a unique weapon (rare skin find + mods) or a not so common armour combo and instantly you will have a hundred ebayers copying you because, hey they have morphing armour/weapons.

Wammo LFG have morphing armour of 1337ness that morphs to all warrior armour inc. FoW! - I NEVER want to see this ingame.

/notsigned

Slainster · Jun 16, 2006, 12:48 PM // 12:48

i like the idea.. my nec has 3 sets of armor, and would have had more if it were not for storage limitations

/signed

Tuoba Hturt Eht · Jun 25, 2006, 10:19 AM // 10:19

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At this point in time, 1.5k armor can carry superior runes. Why would I buy 1.5k essence armor if it could only hold minor/major runes?
/notsigned

You got a very good point.
Proposal revised.
Please review and comment.

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1.This gives more reason to farm, less reason to RP

First, farming is already a wide spread and known practice in Guild Wars.
It is not compulsary for anyone to farm.
Second, define what you meant by RP, do you mean "Role Play", or "Role Playing"?

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2.Encourages the people who are too weak to carry only 2 armor sets.

Could you please elaborate in detail about what you mean by "the people who are too weak"?

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3.Moves the focus of armor from the crafter to the one Goddess.

-3. mentions amor crafter focus. If I made you a set of armor, in an RP world, I would be po'ed if you went to some higher being and destroyed my hand-made armor for something that's a "cheap copy" (In my [crafter]'s opinion).

Agreed.
The proposed method of impidea is revised, please review and comment.

==================================

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Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

My apologies, while it sounds like a brilliant idea, I personally do not like it.

Apology not required. No worries.

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When selecting armour we should ultimately be considering functionality. Where functionality is redundant we consider asthetics. Why should this be changed?

Why not? We get to choose how we want to distribute our 200 attribute points, we have achieved total freedom of attribute distribution with the abolishment of the refund point system.

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Our choices have consequences, expensive ones. If we decided to change our armour later, we have to buy a new set, if we delete an old one out of lack of storage space and then decided we want it back we have to buy it.

Why impose such restriction upon the players?

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If we make a mistake with runes, dye, etc we have to PAY for it. This makes players THINK about their armour choice. Why change that by having people moving around saying, "whoops, made a mistake, doesn't matter anyway because I have to have this to merge with my 1337 armour anyway".

Why not?

Certainly, armour functionality (assuming you have max) isn't all THAT critical but what you want to turn armour buying/deciding into is a check list where all you have to do is tick the boxes. If anything you are making armour LESS personal by wanting to do this.

You want freedom? I think that would be best served by Anet giving us "wardrobe" room so that we can keep our 5, 6, 7 suites of armour rather than having to get rid of them because we are out of storage.

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Your proposal is one that requires players to spend ridiculous amounts of time farming (or resort to ebay) just to show how 1337 their morphing armour is.

Does not the Obsidian Armor already requires players to spend "ridiculous amount of time farming (or resort to ebay)"?

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It is NOT an somthing for endgame players to strive for.

Not for you and the 10+ people who objected perhaps, the 20+ people who agreed with this concept would think otherwise.

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Just another ridiculous addition to that long list of farmables.

Able to achieve total freedom of armor customization is not ridiculous.

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Add morphing armour and the next thing you will want is morphing weapons.

First we will see how the community react to the concept of this Essence Armor first. Personally, I think

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Honestly the idea is ridiculous.

Imagine this scenario:

You have been playing Guild Wars for more than a year, but your character is unable to:
- distribute its attribute points as freely as you can now
- to change secondary professions

Suddenly, you no longer have this restriction, your characters are able to:
- distribute its attribute points as freely as you can now
- to change secondary professions

How would you feel?

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Decisions are half the fun of the game.

We already make decisions when we decide how we want to distribute our attribute points.

With the implementation of this concept Essence Armor, we will have more decisions, regarding our Armor stats.

i.e: "What Armor Stats should I change into when I enter this area?"

Hence, according to what you wrote "Decisions are half the fun of the game", this concept should be adding more fun to the game.

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Make a unique weapon (rare skin find + mods) or a not so common armour combo and instantly you will have a hundred ebayers copying you because, hey they have morphing armour/weapons.

This topic is about Armor that can change appearance and stats, not Weapon.

You are speculating about things that have yet to exist, how can you be so sure that such scenario will come to pass?

Embodiment Of Gaia · Jun 26, 2006, 04:06 AM // 04:06

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Originally Posted by Tuoba Hturth Eht

Anyway, I think it would be better if you could elaborate the value and negative sides of this concept in detail, if you wish to convince me that this concept Essence Armor is really that bad.

Okay then, I will try and make the arguments on the negative sides of Essence Armor more clearly to you.

Concept Itself and Concept vs. RPG's

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Originally Posted by Tuoba Hturth Eht

Total freedom of armor customization is not achieved right away. It takes quite a while to achieve full freedom of customization.

Ahum... actually if you have the gold required for it, it's not much more then just go to all armor crafters, rune traders and dye traders to buy all you need for it and you are done. In other words: where you see it this as an idea for a high-end PVE goal, don't be surprised that I can't help but see it as a cheap/easy tool for the rich, to get free customization on everything concerning armor, dyes and runes.

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Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

Decisions are half the fun of the game.

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Originally Posted by BowLad21

3.Moves the focus of armor from the crafter to the one Goddess.

-3. mentions amor crafter focus. If I made you a set of armor, in an RP world, I would be po'ed if you went to some higher being and destroyed my hand-made armor for something that's a "cheap copy" (In my [crafter]'s opinion).

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Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

If anything you are making armour LESS personal by wanting to do this.

Some people do value the aspects of RPG's. Building up a character that looks unique (lots of armors in one = not unique). The value of making choices, the focus on 'crafting' npc's and traders, the value of a story and background information that makes sense. Guild Wars doesn’t fully offer all that, but it's still a RPG, and your concept takes it further away from that. At least that's how i feel about it, and I'm not the only one I think.

Time to Implement
Obviously, it would take a lot of work to implement this in the game, and it will take more time for every chapter that is added to the GW Series. I rather see it spend on something that is more important and desired by the GW Community.

Ebayers
Although this is a problem that already exists, your idea is probably and to be honest, regretfully going to lead to an enormous increase of Ebayers. Of course this is not your intention, but it's definitely going to be an issue, that comes with your idea, and therefore should be considered as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuoba Hturth Eht

Does not the Obsidian Armor already requires players to spend "ridiculous amount of time farming (or resort to ebay)"?

Yeah, so what is your opinion then of giving them something they need maybe 20 times as much gold for to fully have?

Economy of Dyes and Runes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuoba Hturth Eht

First, how do you define the economy as "ruined"?

The way I see it, it would actually "improve" the economy of Dyes and Runes, not "ruin" them.

See the explantion as writen above, sales of dyes for "non-popular" colours would be boosted, if there are many people who are interested in achieve "total freedom of colour morphing" via the "Essence Armor", more people would end up purchasing all the dyes, instead of just the few popular dyes.

The same would apply for Runes.

Actually, how does one define an economy to be ruined?
In this case, the economy for Dyes and Runes.
Would ruined meant extremely low prices for all dyes and runes, or extremely high prices?

What if the prices are not too expensive, and not too cheap?
Would that be called a balanced economy?

Please do let me know which one is ruined, which one is balanced, aye.

Yes the economy of dyes and runes will be 'boosted' at first.
Everyone is going to buy a lot of dyes and runes to absorb in their essence armors. For a good period of time prices of dyes and runes will be sky high, due to a large demand. But then suddenly the prices begin to drop. And they keep dropping and dropping! Now why is that, you think? The majority of the GW population has bought all the runes and dyes they need, and don't EVER need to buy new ones anymore. So yeah it boosts the economy on short terms and destroys it after that.

Essence Armor vs. Increase Storage/"Wardrobe"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuoba Hturth Eht

Not for you and the 10+ people who objected perhaps, the 20+ people who agreed with this concept would think otherwise.

Most of the posters that sign this petition, only give the argument that they want the extra storage. I believe not many of them really think or are aware of the negative sides of this idea, and just sign because it's a solution to the storage limitation, which is only a part of your concept.

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Some misunderstood/strange arguments:
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuoba Hturt Eht

We get to choose how we want to distribute our 200 attribute points, we have achieved total freedom of attribute distribution with the abolishment of the refund point system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuoba Hturt Eht

Oh, by the way, I think Guild Wars already have a "have it all" concept.
If you character is able to afford the gold and skill points, you can basically "have it all" all the skills, normal and elite.

That would be 450 for core and chapter 1 skills, and another 300 for chapter 2 skills, the total would be 750 skills at least.

Mate, if you think it is a good thing to not be able to "have it all" in a RPG, what do you think of the skills acquisition system of Guild Wars?

It is basically a "have it all", if one can afford the gold and skill points, aye.

You need a lot more then just the gold and skill points to get them. (hint: not all skills can be bought from skill trainers *cough* Elites *cough*).

But seriously I think the skill system is great and so do I think about the attribute refunds and secondary profession changing. Those things are essential game play mechanics, and are related to your skill in playing the game, unlike wanting to collect all armor, won't you say? So... please stop comparing essential game play mechanics with optional aesthetics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

Add morphing armour and the next thing you will want is morphing weapons. Honestly the idea is ridiculous. Decisions are half the fun of the game. Make a unique weapon (rare skin find + mods) or a not so common armour combo and instantly you will have a hundred ebayers copying you because, hey they have morphing armour/weapons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuoba Hturt Eht

You are speculating about things that have yet to exist, how can you be so sure that such scenario will come to pass?

So you say, but you actually know it's gonna happen. (check the quote below)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuoba Hturt Eht

Mate, people will always ask for more, once you give them players a "wardrobe", next they will complain the storage capacity for the "armor wardrobe" is extremely limited, and will want to request, demand, petition ANET to increase the storage capacity of this "armor wardrobe", aye.

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And for the sake of a good debate:
-----------------------------------
Once again, don't break up other people's posts to single sentences, and respond to EACH OF THEM with separate answers, while they OBVIOUSLY should be responded too as one argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuoba Hturt Eht

I separated them because I wanted to reply to each sentence that ended with a full stop, aye.

Well....DON'T FRIGGIN DO THAT! Why do you think people divide their posts into paragraphs huh? Honestly, it just makes you unnecessarily repeat the same points over and over again and it almost seem to me that you want to make our posts look more badly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuoba Hturt Eht

The feedback you have contribute to this topic is invaluable and I really appreciate it, I am sorry if I offended you in the way I replied to your posts.

Thank you for NOT listening and just doing the same thing again in your response and your post after that one. It really helps arguing about this concept!

Tuoba Hturt Eht · Jun 26, 2006, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Embodiment Of Gaia

Concept Itself and Concept vs. RPG's

Ahum... actually if you have the gold required for it, it's not much more then just go to all armor crafters, rune traders and dye traders to buy all you need for it and you are done. In other words: where you see it this as an idea for a high-end PVE goal, don't be surprised that I can't help but see it as a cheap/easy tool for the rich, to get free customization on everything concerning armor, dyes and runes.

If gold is the issue here, then by adding in some non-gold requirements would fix this problem. For example, we can make it such that a repeatable quest of a reasonable difficulty is required to be completed first before the character is able to merge any armor piece.

Quote:

Some people do value the aspects of RPG's. Building up a character that looks unique (lots of armors in one = not unique). The value of making choices, the focus on 'crafting' npc's and traders, the value of a story and background information that makes sense. Guild Wars doesn’t fully offer all that, but it's still a RPG, and your concept takes it further away from that. At least that's how i feel about it, and I'm not the only one I think.

Regarding this, I have no idea how to resolve this issue.

However, I can provide my arguement regarding this issue:
If we are able to have total freedom of armor customization, able to change the apearance, stats, runes and colors of our armor set, would not this enable us to experiment more freely and come up with more unique looks?

Quote:

Time to Implement
Obviously, it would take a lot of work to implement this in the game, and it will take more time for every chapter that is added to the GW Series. I rather see it spend on something that is more important and desired by the GW Community.

I agree that such a concept would involve a lot of time and effort to implement, but I believe once this idea is properly implemented, it will be worth it.

Quote:

Ebayers
Although this is a problem that already exists, your idea is probably and to be honest, regretfully going to lead to an enormous increase of Ebayers. Of course this is not your intention, but it's definitely going to be an issue, that comes with your idea, and therefore should be considered as well.

As stated earlier, would adding in a non-gold component solve this issue of gold and ebayers? For example, the merging service is only available after the character has completed a quest of reasonable difficulty, the quest is only repeatable if the character exits and re-enter the area.

Quote:

Yeah, so what is your opinion then of giving them something they need maybe 20 times as much gold for to fully have?

Obsidian Armor is optional, it is not compulsary.

Regarding this concept Essence Armor, the merging fees can vary depending on the price of the armor.
i.e: Merging fees for 1.5k armor would probably be 10 times cheaper than the 15k armor

Quote:

Economy of Dyes and Runes
Yes the economy of dyes and runes will be 'boosted' at first.
Everyone is going to buy a lot of dyes and runes to absorb in their essence armors. For a good period of time prices of dyes and runes will be sky high, due to a large demand. But then suddenly the prices begin to drop. And they keep dropping and dropping! Now why is that, you think? The majority of the GW population has bought all the runes and dyes they need, and don't EVER need to buy new ones anymore. So yeah it boosts the economy on short terms and destroys it after that.

Prices of dyes and runes will rise at first, due to the implementation of this new feature, after things have settled down, the prices will drop back to a stable level, not rock bottom. New players, new characters will always need to buy new ones.

Quote:

Essence Armor vs. Increase Storage/"Wardrobe"
Most of the posters that sign this petition, only give the argument that they want the extra storage. I believe not many of them really think or are aware of the negative sides of this idea, and just sign because it's a solution to the storage limitation, which is only a part of your concept.

The "negative sides" of this concept will be brought up by people such as yourself, and then I will continue to work on the idea until there are no more "negative sides".

Quote:

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Some misunderstood/strange arguments:
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You need a lot more then just the gold and skill points to get them. (hint: not all skills can be bought from skill trainers *cough* Elites *cough*).

But seriously I think the skill system is great and so do I think about the attribute refunds and secondary profession changing. Those things are essential game play mechanics, and are related to your skill in playing the game, unlike wanting to collect all armor, won't you say? So... please stop comparing essential game play mechanics with optional aesthetics.

Personally, I like the skill system, as well as the freedom of attribute distribution as well as the changing of secondary profession, which inspired me to come up with this concept.

Actually, this concept was brought up before in Sardelac, however the OP suggested that this feature be made available only to the Obsidian Armor, that thread did not get much support and soon died off.

After some time I decide to come up with a similiar topic myself and hence this thread is born, after a couple of postings I decided that it is better to make this armor accessable to all players, instead of only the minority rich.

Quote:

So you say, but you actually know it's gonna happen. (check the quote below)

Aye, I know, people always ask for more.
I figured it would be better to give them a have it all armor.
We can already achieve a "have it all" status with skills, why not armors?
Once all the "negative sides" have been carefully dealt with, I do not see any reason to not implement this.

Quote:

-----------------------------------
And for the sake of a good debate:
-----------------------------------
Once again, don't break up other people's posts to single sentences, and respond to EACH OF THEM with separate answers, while they OBVIOUSLY should be responded too as one argument.

Ok, mate. I think I am replying to your paragraphs now. Am not breaking up your paragraphs this time.

Quote:

Well....DON'T FRIGGIN DO THAT! Why do you think people divide their posts into paragraphs huh? Honestly, it just makes you unnecessarily repeat the same points over and over again and it almost seem to me that you want to make our posts look more badly.

I am sorry. I will not break up the paragraphs this time and reply to each paragraph instead. Well, it is not my intention to want to make your posts look more badly, but sometimes I wish to highlight what has been writen and I wish to reply to that particular line.

Sometimes, people only have one big paragraph, and I have to break it up.

Quote:

Thank you for NOT listening and just doing the same thing again in your response and your post after that one. It really helps arguing about this concept!

Ok mate, I apologize again. I hope I did not break up your paragraphs this time. I tried to only reply to each paragraph this time. Did I did better this time?

Tuoba Hturt Eht · Jul 09, 2006, 11:52 PM // 23:52

If this concept is only limited to the changing of armor stats and runes, minus the aesthetics, what would those who oppose this idea originally feel then?

Discuss.

Kai Nui · Jul 10, 2006, 04:19 AM // 04:19

/SIGNED

This would be the best thing since the loss of attribute refund points. It wouldn't limit your skill and would totally make sense. I completely agree.

Allow us to get all max armor "infused" in the sense that it becomes "essence-ized?" if you know what I mean.

August August · Jul 10, 2006, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Here's what I am getting from the concept...

You are a warrior and you have Essence Armor, you buy a set of Glads and a set of Platmail, apply both armor sets to the essence armor, now the essence armor is the only set of armor you have, but you can toggle between what function it has, in this case either Glads or Platmail.

If this is the case and you must first BUY the armor to be 'absorbed' then I will sign, otherwise no, it would be broken.

Tuoba Hturt Eht · Jul 11, 2006, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Thanks for the support, I believe this concept will be better than simply a "Armor Storage" idea, although it will be harder to implement.

August August, actually I was thinking about revising this concept into just retaining the functionality, while losing the aesthetics, due to some of the more recent feedback received.

Discuss.

Tuoba Hturt Eht · Jul 14, 2006, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Revised the post again, please cast your votes again, be it you support this idea, or against it.

The Concept:
- An Armor that is able to change its: Stats, Runes
- While in towns or outposts.
- Total freedom of armor customization in terms of statistics is not achieved right away
- Takes quite a while to achieve full freedom of customization

NOTE: Idea has been revised again, but the concept is the same.
- Once again the idea is revised
- Concept remains the same
- Aesthetic aspect has been removed

Proposed method of implementating this idea:

1. John has a full set of Glads Armor
2. He wants to be able to change armor stats and runes for his full Glads set
2a. He then forms of group of like minded individuals
3. They visits a certain Gods Realm
4. They find a particular NPC in a certain Gods Realm
5. Each purchases a special "Essence Capturing Signet" (ECS) from the NPC
6. They proceeds to complete a quest for this NPC
7. The quests requires them to kill a certain monster
8. They proceed to kill the tough boss and its gang
9. Upon death of the boss, they captured its essence using the ECS
10. A quest item "Essence of <insert name here>" appears in their inventories
11. They return to the NPC to have their armor upgraded
12. They have the following options:

Armor Upgrade Options:
1. Armor Stats
Requires:
- One (1) Essence of <insert name here>
- Reasonable merging fee
- Armor piece to be upgraded

Upgrade:
- Upgraded Armor piece is able to change into the newly selected stats
- Abilty to change back into original stats remains

2. Runes
- One (1) Essence of <insert name here>
- Reasonable merging fee
- Choice of Rune to be merged into Armor
- Armor piece to be upgraded

Upgrade:
- Upgraded Armor piece is able to change into the newly selected rune stats
- Abilty to change back into original rune stats remains

12. John's party will need to exit the God's Realm and re-enter
13. If they wants to do this quest again

Discuss.

Griev · Jul 14, 2006, 11:05 PM // 23:05

If they can change back and forth then ANet loses a massive gold sink.

Tuoba Hturt Eht · Jul 14, 2006, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griev

If they can change back and forth then ANet loses a massive gold sink.

This concept was originally devised as an even massiver gold sink, read Embodiment of Gaia's posts for the feedback he provided.

Due to the many points he stated, I decided to revise this concept again.

Players will still have to fork out gold if they want to dye their armor, or change new appearance for their armor.

This concept originally included the ability to change appearance, as well as the color of the armor. It would be a much more better gold sink. Again, read Embodiment of Gaia's reply for more details.

Tuoba Hturt Eht · Jul 15, 2006, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Feedback from the community is requested.
Be it you support this idea, or you are against it, please let me know and post your stance in this thread.

If you vote Yes as in you support this idea, would you have more ideas to contribute to this concept?

If you vote No as in you are against this idea, would you share with us in more detail about why you are against this idea?

Thank you for your time.

Cybah · Jul 16, 2006, 09:12 AM // 09:12

/signed.

I've bought 2 cantha 15k armors. I really don't need two armors with the same style, but I needed those different stats. That's expansive and flooding my inventory.

...oh and I wish I could change my fow armor stats...

bamm bamm bamm · Jul 16, 2006, 10:05 PM // 22:05

I certainly like the idea, but it sounds more like a ui upgrade rather than something to be purchased. I think simply having a drop down menu for each body part in the [i] window would be far better. Your idea is akin to farming for months and spending a vast sum of money for the awesome ability of having a material tab in your storage window. I think it would be better as simply an inherent feature of the ui and not something soley for the people who have all the time in the world for farming. To be honest, it sounds like you want to implement the pvp armour menu into pve and charge a fortune for the privilege. So that's one area where I think your idea could be improved. So it would look like this:

[Black \/] [15K Kurzick Executioners Helm \/] [of Superior Axe Mastery \/]

So that's the menu for your warriors head, and the only items available in the dropdowns are the things you have bought and dragged onto your 'absorb' symbol, located on the [i] inventory menu (like the trash can is). If you need anything back, open one of the dropdown menus and drag the item back into your inventory space and it gets unabsorbed and ready to be sold, salvaged or destroyed. If you have absorbed one black dye and you are using it on your helm, it can't be used on anything else unless you take it back off the helm.

Of course this poses some problems. One, people would absorb items simply for extra storage purposes. Two, I agree with a previous poster that this WOULD destroy the economy, or at least drastically slow it in the long run. Instead of people buying dye and runes per armour per character per account, it becomes simply per character per account. So demand has been reduced by an order of magnitude. I suppose you could reduce supply too (drop rate ratios), further slowing the economy.

I'm sure there are ways around the issues. Maybe your inventory could have a new tab with two storage spaces. One can hold ten dyes (and only dyes) and one can hold ten runes (and only runes). Whatever you put into them appears in the two dropdowns to the left and right of your armour dropdown. That way you have a limit to the number that can be stored and you don't need an 'absorb' button. Maybe the same can be done for armours. But like I say, I like your idea, i just dont like the idea of paying for what is essentially a ui upgrade (unless the charge is 50g ^^)

Tuoba Hturt Eht · Jul 17, 2006, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Thanks, bamm bamm bamm, for the feedback you have provided, much appreciated.

=============================================

However, this concept, being revised many times, the latest incarnation has me decided that the aesthetic part of this concept will be discarded, while leaving the functionality part intact.

Functionality, in terms of armor stats and runes changing while the character is in towns or outposts.

Hence, the drop down menu would resemble something like this:

[Gladiator's \/] Kurzick Cuirass of [Superior V] [Absorption V]
[Gladiator's \/] Luxon Gauntlets of [Minor \/] [Swordsmanship \/]
[Gladiator's \/] Kurzick Leggings of [Superior \/] [Vigor \/]
[Gladiator's \/] Luxon Boots of [Minor \/] [Strength \/]

The part which is bolded and underlined will cannot be changed, since we are only talking about functionality here, and not aestheics.

As for dyes, the armor would of course still be dyeable, just that the dyes would not be "stored", only the armor stats and runes.

=============================================

Regarding how the current armor system in Guild Wars work:
If our RPG characters would want a different set of armor with different stats than our existing armor, the only option is to purchase a new set of armor.

This would create problems such as reduced inventory storage capacity, which is one of the problems that this proposed concept armor type would resolve.

=============================================

The economy would not be destroyed at all, people would still continue to purchase runes and armors.

Remember, the revised concept armor has the ability to change its armor stats and runes, nothing else.

Functionality, not aesthetics.

=============================================

And yes, you are right, this would be a most welcomed User Interface upgrade. Perhaps a suitable way of implementing this into the game is, introduce it as a series of quests in the future chapters.

A multi-tiered quest to get one's armor "Essenized", how would that sound?

Discuss.

Aramaki · Jul 17, 2006, 02:25 PM // 14:25

/signed
Idea is good for players, but... will Anet do it? IMHO No. They will rather give us more storage space.