Curse

Mr Seph · Nov 05, 2006, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Quote:

/unsigned

2 reasons...

1: This allows Players Who want to HA the ability to form their own team and learn/gain rank sense so many HA player wont even let you enter or speak unless you rank3+ and state build there after.
2: I feel if we build them, help run them to maximum performance then they are deserved and no different then a skilled player in a proper build. After all they do need help from time to time.

How can you say you learn things from playing with heroes? Do they wisper you the best strats for that particular map or something? Do they tell you that this particular skill is better then the one you have on your bar now?

Quote:

However, if you were suggesting that more can be learned from a PUG than a hero team, I don't think you've played in many PUGs recently.

Have you ever played HA before heroes? How can you honestly say you learn more from Heroes, that dont say anything to you, then from PUGS, that have actual people saying you what you might be doing good or bad?
Try saying to a hero that he has to use prot spirit more, or has to preprot constantly.

The thing will still be, if you play with heroes, they will act in 1 particular way, during the entire battle, not adepting to new situations, like a real player team could do.

What i still keep seeing from the people adoring heroes is that this way, they can get rank this way, and will be able to join the better groups. Think again.
The better groups dont take random pugs that they have never heard of. They take people from their friends list, or from guild. So, when you get that higher rank, i dont think Dunkoro will start pm'ing you to join his group. People can be rank 11 for all i care, but if i dont know em, or nobody else from my team knows them, there is a small chance that he'll get into the group. Cuz, and this has been said so much more already by other people, there are r6+ friends list/guild groups beating up the r9+ pugs easily. The only reason for this is the good teamplay they have build up together, they know how everyone functions in the team.

And seriously, stop whining about how you cannot get into the higher ranked groups, cuz of elitism or something. Everyone has been or is in that situation, you think the people who are rank 11 today were taken into r9+ groups when they were r2-3? Hell no. And if its that hard to get into groups, make your own groups. Thats what i used to do when i was r5-6-7. This way, i got known by other people, and they started asking me for their groups, which got me in those better groups in the end, and got me into a better guild.
Playing with heroes will not get you any connections among guild wars community in HA. I havent seen anybody saying: 'Wow, that heroway is good, lets get that person into our group/guild'.

If you are solely going for that lovely deer emote to flash into PvE, yes, heroway will be the fastest way to get that. But will it get you into better groups in the future for HA? Not a chance.

What will happen is, you finally reach that desired rank with heroes, lets say r6. You go find yourself a pug that is r6+. You will join that group cuz you can, but the people in there will know you are not as good as your rank tells you should be. And what will happen you think? They will throw you away like an old tissue and never ask you again.

The thing i advise to lower-experienced players, is to play the profession you like most for X-amount of months, really get better in it, and you'll get those better groups. Save the good people from every group in your friends list, and try playing with them more. This way, you get better and better, and you'll build up a good friends list with better players.

You wanna keep playing with heroes and end up a r9-10+ person with not alot of experience and nobody really wants to play with you cuz you cant play up to the expectations of those true r9-10+ people? I think not.
If you truly wanna become a better player, you'll play with real people in your team, and some of those people will rage at you, cuz yes, everyone makes mistakes, and so will you. But when people rage at you, you learn new things, or maybe you'll teach other people new things. Cuz people, thats how interactive gameplay works.

You will get rank eventually if you keep playing, there is no denying that. Fame doesnt go away if you lose. Its just the way how you get the rank that inflluences your future PvP-play.

Slabby · Nov 05, 2006, 11:46 AM // 11:46

HA 8vs8, no Heroes FTW !
/signed

As far my contribution to the forums

Lord Mendes · Nov 05, 2006, 12:45 PM // 12:45

i am going to post this here since i am sure most of you people crying for heroes to stay dont even know there is an HA section on guru. Now your main argument is that it is easier to get fame with heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

I am going to say this for one last time, rank means jack SHlT. If a ranked party is forming in ID1, chances are it most likely sucks. Unranked/r3+/r6+ parties all seem to play at the same lvl, especially on the maps that count most (courtyard, sacred, HoH).
The good players form parties straight from their f-list and guild list. PUGs are a huge part of HA, but if you look at the ratio of Pugs to guild teams in HA, then look at the ratio of Pugs to guild teams winning halls, you will notice that there are fewer guild teams, but they seem to win halls much more often.

Play RA/TA, then join unranked FoTM HA groups getting 10 fame a day. Then make fellow unranked friends, and play with them. You will eventually get your bambi and if you like HA, you will keep playing. Then, you will start/join an "ok" pvp guild with their friends experimenting with different and less cookie-cutterish builds. They will progressivly get better and eventually win halls under your name/guild name. Soon after, you will realize that fame is totally irrelivant since you are easily taking down higher ranked players and getting pointless fame. Those that kept grinding cookie cutter builds until they got their tiger are losing to henchway.

Point is, play with good friends you know can play, join a PvP guild, or try to get some of your PvE guildies to try out HA (I was in the PvEest guild in guildwars and got my rank 3 from playing with these guildies). Practice what you are good at, and if you really are good at what you do, i am 100% sure you will get pms every night 2 join your buddies' HA teams.

I think i've posted this on another forum, but when you reach this stage you will soon realize how stupid you were for crying on the forums because you couldnt find a group when you were unranked. Also, after beating many incompetent r6 pugs, you will notice that you never missed out on anything and that rank means very little. You will hate rank and hope it gets erased.

this is what i answered when some1 said the "rank and rank elitism is destroying HA".
Plz read this and think about it a bit. You are simply earning something pointless that any decent player in HA knows is irrelivent, and killing all the fun in HA in the process.
Also Seph's post wins the thread.

leeky baby · Nov 05, 2006, 12:57 PM // 12:57

again i wil sign on one of these threads

8V8 NO HEROS!!!!

/signed

iv actually quit to play wow and just sign on to play in gvgs now...because of this rubbish update

Bouddha · Nov 05, 2006, 01:13 PM // 13:13

/signed
Come back FUN to the HoH please.

Gridou · Nov 05, 2006, 01:40 PM // 13:40

/signed

Mysterial · Nov 05, 2006, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Seph

How can you say you learn things from playing with heroes? Do they wisper you the best strats for that particular map or something? Do they tell you that this particular skill is better then the one you have on your bar now?

For example: I have up the hero window, so I see my Paragon guy standing there at near full energy most of the time. That tells me, "hey, I should probably replace an adrenaline skill or two with an energy one so he makes more effective use of his resources". Or "hey, my monk hero is always at zero energy five seconds into the battle... maybe it's because I forgot to give him any energy management?". Or "Hexes never seem to get removed... perhaps I should have more hex removal somewhere?". Etc etc etc. I'm not arguing that having (intelligent) real players help isn't better, but saying that you can't read how the game is going and think of ideas to improve your team just because they're AI guys is ridiculous.

Quote:

Have you ever played HA before heroes? How can you honestly say you learn more from Heroes, that dont say anything to you, then from PUGS, that have actual people saying you what you might be doing good or bad?

It might be because I don't find "OMFG noob learn 2 play" as useful feedback. I don't get to know their energy/skill status unless they tell me and pre-Nightfall listing of skills was so time consuming I eventually gave up, asked for the basics, and prayed they had intelligent skills everywhere else.

Mr Seph · Nov 05, 2006, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Quote:

For example: I have up the hero window, so I see my Paragon guy standing there at near full energy most of the time. That tells me, "hey, I should probably replace an adrenaline skill or two with an energy one so he makes more effective use of his resources". Or "hey, my monk hero is always at zero energy five seconds into the battle... maybe it's because I forgot to give him any energy management?". Or "Hexes never seem to get removed... perhaps I should have more hex removal somewhere?". Etc etc etc. I'm not arguing that having (intelligent) real players help isn't better, but saying that you can't read how the game is going and think of ideas to improve your team just because they're AI guys is ridiculous.

Euhm, you are totally talking bout buildissues here, which has nothing to do with learning anything. How do you think top-PvP'ers improve their build? Let me think here, oh yea, they talk, they communicate. If you dont have any communication coming from your team if you are playing in a real-player team, they dont play with them anymore. Not all lower-experienced players are bad.

In this post, you give an example of how your heroes are telling you how their builds can be improved, but the main thing what i was talking about was how YOU can improve. Heroes will never tell you anything about your positioning, your use of skills, your way of fighting other teams. Heroes dont give any feedback, and that way, you cannot improve yourself.

In your heroteam, you can improve heroes, heroes cannot improve you.
In real-playerteam, you can improve other people, AND the other people can improve you. Like i said, this is how cooperative play works.

Your example of how you improve the heroes is totally irrelavent to what i was trying to point out, and i hope this extra post has opened your mind to that.

Quote:

It might be because I don't find "OMFG noob learn 2 play" as useful feedback. I don't get to know their energy/skill status unless they tell me and pre-Nightfall listing of skills was so time consuming I eventually gave up, asked for the basics, and prayed they had intelligent skills everywhere else.

Yes, there are alot of annoying people who will rage at you this way. If you cant take a lil bit of rage, then you should probably go do something like ballet. Some people will rage at you in this form, not teaching you anything about what youve been doing wrong, BUT, there are others who will tell you exactly what you were doing wrong, by which you can learn, and be better in the future.

Get me right here, we are not talking about skillsetup, just about logical gameplay thinking about how to fight/beat another team, aka strats.

If you truly want to become a better PvP-player, you need to have communication, in both ways, coming from you, and directed towards you.
Critique is sometimes a pain to take, but it is necesary if you want to develop yourself in PvP.

Yunas Ele · Nov 05, 2006, 04:09 PM // 16:09

The topic creator really needs to edit the first post and include all the valid support points that have been made. No one can seem to argue against my points. Why is that? Is it because I bring up valid points? Aww, truth hurts doesn't it... Other people like Mr Seph, luilui, Lord Mendes and others have also brought up valid points that no one can seem to argue against... But the problem is most people aren't reading beyond the first post and just repeating the same stupid points again and again.

If T/C doesn't edit it I'll just make a new topic on this. Getting tired of repeating myself for the 100th time with people making points like "oh u guyz just complain cuz u can't beat teh heroway!11" or "i can fianlly get a grp cuz u 3l1tismzs wun't t4kE mE In UR gRp!111"

Helios Skyfire · Nov 05, 2006, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Meh - based on the OP's language and attitude, I doubt he'd be able to make a meaningful contribution to the topic - I'm just grateful that he started the topic so that better minds could ponder the issue.

Lord Mendes · Nov 05, 2006, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

If T/C doesn't edit it I'll just make a new topic on this. Getting tired of repeating myself for the 100th time with people making points like "oh u guyz just complain cuz u can't beat teh heroway!11" or "i can fianlly get a grp cuz u 3l1tismzs wun't t4kE mE In UR gRp!111"

this is getting frustrating. Love it when you type something that completely counters their entire argument, and all they can say is "ZomG if u cant beat heroes, you shouldnt b in HA!!11! zOMG!". For the last time this isnt the issue! The only time i "lost" to a hero team was when we had to resign at the start of a game because both our warrior and one of our monks had DCed, and we were left with four players. Btw everytime i come up against hero teams on 3 way altar maps, they always have a tendency to gank the guild or human team (rather unsuccesfully too). Is that what HA has become, punishing the real teams?
Jesus...

LoStLaNdS · Nov 05, 2006, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by akh

Never. Your so-called AI is nothing but bunch of scripts with predefined behavior. If you can't fool it, try better. I agree heroes are better at interrupting and attacking called targets than average but so are skilled players. If you constantly lose to hero team, thats because:
1. You're bad/average player
2. You aren't bad but foe is better which means that he knows how to set hero builds, knows how to equip them, knows how to control 4 characters including himself..
If 2 then he would probably defeat you anyway in decent human team.

/notsigned

Definition of Artificial Intelligence:

"the capability of a machine to imitate intelligent human behavior"
http://m-w.com/dictionary/Artificial%20Intelligence

AI is a bunch of scripts with predefined behavior, but what makes it different is that GW made their AI to process every bit of data their opponent and team does.
Plus if you haven't noticed, Heroes have a way different AI coding then the regular Henchmen.

Your argument, "If you can't fool it, try better", is almost impossible, unless you are a Hacker, A Genius and or the Creator.

Thats like trying to imitate an OS Version of Windows in your head VS. A computer doing it.
Or
Playing Pong VS. a Computer. The Computer only messes up because the Author of the program coded to have it make mistakes. Otherwise, it will just wait until you make the mistakes.

If you have read earlier posts, you would see that your reason was already spam by the majority of those who have bought Nightfall. Its not about fighting against Heroes but the AI that controls the Hero. If Heroes AI was the same as early versions of Henchman's AI then we would not have this problem.

Antoine · Nov 05, 2006, 07:22 PM // 19:22

/signed

The hoh is dead, thanks Anet ...

generik · Nov 05, 2006, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by luilui

Not a chance, if you can't even get a team of real players you have no business playing in HA.

Look who's whining here, "Nobody want to play with me please get me some henchies so I can play T___T". It is hard for pver to get into HA or any PvP in general that's not because u do pve, it's because you are not good enough for that particular game style. If you want to get into a team go observer mode and observe, why should anyone waste their time to teach you? That's just as stupid as someone expect you to farm 10 green weapons for some complete stranger.

Henchmen are not good enough for HA, they are there to make up the number so losers like you can actually click "enter". If you read the other post you'll see everybody can beat heroway.

2 weeks later you'll realise you cant win with heroway and u'll start crying again, then Anet might have to improve the your hero friends' ai so they'll actually ping on the map telling you where to go ping the target u should be on and ask u to use a specific skill and u may eventually stop crying.

It's people like u that screw up HA. You go in and expect to get fames and get ur cool deer, if u cant u cry and blame the high rank players that dont let u leech their team. If you really enjoy the game you should just go in and play the best u can, if u lose u think about why u lose and learn from ur mistake, see what others do and learn from them, try to understand the game better, be a better player. Every high rank player have done this. You need to understand the fun of HA (or PvP or the game in general) is not that getting the fame/reward, it's the game itself.

I just cant understand those saying they cant get a team because they are unranked, why cant they just go make an unranked team? Please please tell me the reason.

Eh?

For the record I'm not even bothered with HA, hero or otherwise.

The way I see it:

1) If you can "so easily beat heroway", then where is the issue? More free fame for you!
2) How is this different from other *ways and FOTMs?
3) "You need to understand the fun of HA (or PvP or the game in general) is not that getting the fame/reward, it's the game itself." - how has the game changed with the addition of heroes? Pure hypocracy. Of course you can say that, having invested thousands of heroes into PvP and you yourself probably flash that same "cool deer" or whatever in the outpost. Meanwhile you lose to AI and whine like a baby.

Irony at its finest.

generik · Nov 05, 2006, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoStLaNdS

Definition of Artificial Intelligence:

"the capability of a machine to imitate intelligent human behavior"
http://m-w.com/dictionary/Artificial%20Intelligence

AI is a bunch of scripts with predefined behavior, but what makes it different is that GW made their AI to process every bit of data their opponent and team does.
Plus if you haven't noticed, Heroes have a way different AI coding then the regular Henchmen.

Your argument, "If you can't fool it, try better", is almost impossible, unless you are a Hacker, A Genius and or the Creator.

Thats like trying to imitate an OS Version of Windows in your head VS. A computer doing it.
Or
Playing Pong VS. a Computer. The Computer only messes up because the Author of the program coded to have it make mistakes. Otherwise, it will just wait until you make the mistakes.

If you have read earlier posts, you would see that your reason was already spam by the majority of those who have bought Nightfall. Its not about fighting against Heroes but the AI that controls the Hero. If Heroes AI was the same as early versions of Henchman's AI then we would not have this problem.

So...

On one hand you frequently boot out people from your teams with zero impunity, and now when you lost to a robot you start making them out as though they are based off some latest cutting edge genetic algorithms + essense of HAL 3000?

AI is AI. You make it sound like they are some super code. If Anet's "AI" so far is anything to go by, it is all a bunch of "if" and "then" directives. Nothing intelligent about them.

I do not believe Anet actually created a new AI engine that is used solely for the heroes, sorry.

LoStLaNdS · Nov 05, 2006, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

So...

On one hand you frequently boot out people from your teams with zero impunity, and now when you lost to a robot you start making them out as though they are based off some latest cutting edge genetic algorithms + essense of HAL 3000?

AI is AI. You make it sound like they are some super code. If Anet's "AI" so far is anything to go by, it is all a bunch of "if" and "then" directives. Nothing intelligent about them.

I do not believe Anet actually created a new AI engine that is used solely for the heroes, sorry.

It might sound like what you describe, but the context of what i am speaking is that AI, no matter if its cutting edge or simply "Ifs" and "thens", is still more faster then any normal player.

It is designed by software producers to "imitate intelligent human behavior".
People code the "Ifs" and "Thens" for every possible situation that they can think of, and in addition to that, use a computer to process those situations.

It would be like if you were to put all your strategies into a automatic filer, and it would always bring up the best strategy for the specific situation you are in.

The point is, Computers don't need to be cutting edge to do things faster then a person. They are overall faster at thinking.
Include that with the Authors ideas for their kind of game play is the AI we are taking about.

ANet doesn't need to create a new AI Engine designed solely for Heroes, All they need to do is to improve and build on the ones for Henchmen to be what we have now.

Plus, The whole reason for creating a game is to be cutting edge, to be better then its competitors. Why wouldn't they put cutting edge genetic algorithms in there? I would definitely, if thats what it takes to be better then the opponent.

Winterclaw · Nov 05, 2006, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Heroes are a legit part of the game and a way for unraked people to learn HA maps and see some of the commonly used builds.

/not signed

Siren · Nov 06, 2006, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Heroes are a legit part of the PvE game and a way for people to further customize their PvE experience.

Fixed.

Thallandor · Nov 06, 2006, 02:23 AM // 02:23

/not signed

Vel Satis · Nov 06, 2006, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

blah blah same bollocks we've seen posted by PvE scrubs a million times

and what are they learning? What are they learning that they couldn't learn in hero battles?

The maps? I don't think the 1 minute glimpse the heroway teams get teaches much about the maps.

The builds? Wow, that team rolled me hard, lets load up some more heroes and do the exact same thing again.

Teamwork? OMG that player isn't doing exactly what I told him!!!!111eleven!!

Fame? Ah, now we get to it. Can't get that bambi you want to flash over the other scrubs? No problem, just go roll them in PvE, sorry, Hero battles, dammit, HA.

Grind that bambi, scrub, you'll still suck hard when you've got it.