Curse

Yunas Ele · Nov 04, 2006, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alt F Four

/notsigned x 100000

Learn to PvP. You wanna know why heroes are so powerful? Because they take the skills they're ordered to and follow targets. Maybe if you tried something better then a pug, you'd own them. gg.

Great, another person who posts without reading the thread. Majority of the complaints is not that the heroes are too powerful, its that its too boring rolling through them. The fun factor of HA (fighting with real people against real people) is gone. That is the problem...

Alt F Four · Nov 04, 2006, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yunas Ele

Great, another person who posts without reading the thread. Majority of the complaints is not that the heroes are too powerful, its that its too boring rolling through them. The fun factor of HA (fighting with real people against real people) is gone. That is the problem...

I'm still having fun. I like having a team who gets the simple concept of 'follow targets'. So again. /notsigned

Lord Mendes · Nov 04, 2006, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alt F Four

Learn to PvP. You wanna know why heroes are so powerful? Because they take the skills they're ordered to and follow targets. Maybe if you tried something better then a pug, you'd own them. gg

heroes are far from "so powerful" and if you couldnt coordinate a spike or "follow targets" with a real team, then you absolutely do not deserve to play any form of PvP, im sorry...

to quote myself from another thread,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

Do i feel threatened? hell no. On the contrary, i laugh at heroways that still lose when they r ganking me 12v6, and i dont feel challenged one bit. I feel bored.

It's that simple m8, i would rather win/lose to real players, then win against heroway...

HKEY_ · Nov 04, 2006, 11:16 PM // 23:16

/signed

the can't get in a group thing is no excuse go back to PVE.

Mr Seph · Nov 05, 2006, 12:02 AM // 00:02

This is obviously turning into a low-experienced vs high-experienced players thread.
The thing is, what apparently alot of lower-experienced people are forgetting, is that the higher-experienced players where in that same situation as you are now. Everyone has been a noob, you cant deny that. The fact is, the lower-experienced players of today, just want an excuse to be able to fight the big dogs.
You wanna know why r10-11+ players only play with people from the same rank, its because most of em have played with the same people for over months now. They know these people, and know if they are good or bad at certain positions.
What i still think that is important in HA, is that you meet people that you can play with, and that they know you for how good you are at a certain position in the team.
If your not a good player at anything, fine, not Anets fault, not anybodys fault, train, and you'll be accepted alot more, stop whining about not getting groups.
If you want to get your fame up with heroway, do it, nobody really cares. Will you get known by better players in HA because you have that illustrious hero below your name ? No.

All i see in all these posts is how good heroway is cuz the heroes listen to calls, and you can make groups faster and stuff. But will you get to learn anything from doing this? Not at all. You dont learn new strats on any map, you are solely relying on your own decisions in a battle, which will never make you a better player then you are at this particular moment. People learn from mistakes, thats as simple as that.

You want these heroes to stay because the 'higher-ranked' people dont take you in their groups? There are 2 answers to that: 1, you really gotta train at a position you like, a position that is necesary in practically every build, and 2, play with people from your own experience, we all had to start the same way, dont look for excuses because you started PvP later then the rest of us.

Dean Harper · Nov 05, 2006, 12:18 AM // 00:18

i love the heroes as a mesmer, makes it so i dont have to work with stupid henches, and also i dont have to look for more sophisticated people to work with which takes to long to do.

However, i did really like having real ppl in HA, so im gonna sign this, just dont make it so heroes arent in pve, they work really well, i like them in PvE

/halfway signed

Yunas Ele · Nov 05, 2006, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alt F Four

I'm still having fun. I like having a team who gets the simple concept of 'follow targets'. So again. /notsigned

Did you play HA before NF? Can you honestly tell me that you're having more fun fighting NPCs than real players? I can tell you the vast majority of HAers prefered fighting real players. If you like fighting AI, theres another section of the game for you, its called PvE. Stick to it if you prefer to fight AI. PvP is where real players fight other real players.

Mysterial · Nov 05, 2006, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Using Starburst is an issue concerning the metagame. It's irrelevant here.

Not entirely. I believe his point was that if you kick all the AIs out of HA it'll still be the exact same teams that are exactly as easy to beat - just it'll be humans running the crappy builds instead.

Personally, all I care about is having a place where I can play straight up annihilation with heroes. The Hero Battle gametype can be fun but it gets old and I'd prefer a simpler gametype to prototype builds in. I couldn't care less if they do it through HA, letting heroes in TA or a new arena altogether.

tomcruisejr · Nov 05, 2006, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Lord Mendes, you talked to yourself @ post #243. omg

http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showp...&postcount=243

Siren · Nov 05, 2006, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

if you kick all the AIs out of HA it'll still be the exact same teams that are exactly as easy to beat - just it'll be humans running the crappy builds instead.

Yeah, but there the issue becomes the metagame itself, because you'll have human teams running around. AI cannot evaluate what is going on around them on the battlefield. AI, particularly in GW here, cannot adapt and change like the players do in PvP. It really doesn't matter if the AI is running an identical build to what we'd see when heroes are banned from HA, because the potential for change is nonexistent with AI. There isn't even a metagame when AI is present when you really think about it.

I mean, after a match in HA versus other human players, what usually happens? Each player on the team contributes to revised strategies and tactics. This is one of the elements of communication that make PvP so worthwhile. Everyone there gives his or her insights into the strengths and weaknesses of the team build, and offers ways to improve. You're getting five to seven different viewpoints there, which can only expand one's knowledge of the game and open new avenues of build design, both for the team and the individual.

There's no communication like that with Heroway. AI can't offer any type of advice in terms of what was being countered where, and what types of problems certain elements of the build suffered from. The strategizing and revision after Heroway loses is minimal at best, because it's only one person using a limited scope of game knowledge. That one player sure as hell does not specialize in everything--especially if said player is a newbie to PvP.

That's precisely why I generally don't design Monk or Ele PvP builds. I never play Monk or Ele. Anything else, I'm down with. Necro, mesmer, ranger, assassin, warrior, ritualist, and very likely paragon. I rock house there. Especially mesmer. I'm pretty much a one-man wrecking crew when I'm in the zone as a mesmer.

Furthermore, my lack of experience doing monk and ele is exactly why I can't (and don't) offer advice to the monk and ele players on my team. I can't offer reasonable, respectable feedback. I won't positively contribute to the metagame there. I know I can't be trained in everything. There are always going to be at least two professions throughout the entirety of GW that I will never attempt to design builds for, and this holds true with most players I imagine. Everyone has limitations.

And a single newbie human trying to command/revise the builds of five AI NPCs is not learning anything due to those limitations and the lack of other humans on the team, who specialize in those particular professions that said newbie human doesn't know very well.

GW is a team game. You need a solid team build, but more importantly, you need solid team players.

A post-heroes HA game environment that still features Starburst will be annoying, definitely, and troublesome. But those human players have a vast pool of knowledge from which to develop new ideas, to revise strategy, or to devise counters. HA has a lot of potential to change here with Nightfall's new skills. The metagame has a lot of potential to change here with NF's new skills.

The problem is that all of that potential doesn't matter because of heroes totally distorting HA. Once we get rid of the heroes in HA, we'll see the metagame shift, especially when people start getting into paragons, as well as the new necro and mesmer skills.

Hell, I think balanced teams will see a renaissance of sorts, because of the cross-conditional effects/requirements of NF skills.

Jesse · Nov 05, 2006, 02:44 AM // 02:44

/notsigned

no comment

gamecube187 · Nov 05, 2006, 02:45 AM // 02:45

/notsigned

Newer players need a way to get rank so they can accually be accepted in HA groups. ArenaNet finally allowed this by letting heros in. Untill there is another way to let newer players get rank, I'm not going to sign this.

Akimi Akatsuki · Nov 05, 2006, 03:03 AM // 03:03

/signed

Khift · Nov 05, 2006, 03:20 AM // 03:20

/signed

Yunas Ele · Nov 05, 2006, 03:29 AM // 03:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamecube187

/notsigned

Newer players need a way to get rank so they can accually be accepted in HA groups. ArenaNet finally allowed this by letting heros in. Untill there is another way to let newer players get rank, I'm not going to sign this.

Newer players can get their rank without heroes/hench. Many people started VERY late in pvp. I know someone who started only a month and a half ago, only played balance (no fame farming gimmicks), didn't get into high ranked groups or anything and is now rank 9. The new players need to stop whining about how the high ranked players won't take them in their groups and start making their own groups or join other unranked groups and get their ranked. And guess what, high ranked PUGs usually aren't that great anyways, I can tell you from personal experience. 99% of all good HA teams come from the friends list (or guild list). I've seen unranked friends list groups beat r9+ pugs. So how do you start of? Join/make unranked groups, friends list the good people, and well it all goes from there. Farming your rank up with heroes isn't going to get you anywhere. Unless your some pver who just wants to flash his cool deer emote to go with his Fissure Armor. Heroes are good for that I guess. But if you actually want to get into HA, like I said, Heroes will get you absolutely no where. See Mr Seph's post if you want more info, he did a good job explaining stuff.

LoStLaNdS · Nov 05, 2006, 03:46 AM // 03:46

The whole concept of an MMO RPG is playing with people and not with NPCs.

The NPCs are just there to help a group out, not to give a noticeable advantage over their opponent.
I'll Explain this. NPCs are originally created to offer assistance to those who cannot find or join a group. For missions and quest.

Yes, it is great to have NPCs around, and people think its the same skill-level as players or even worse. But Its not as it seems.

Yes, players may give feedback, advise and words of encouragement. Also the advantages of thinking for yourself and knowing where to move.
But the recent addition of Heroes, and the buffing the NPC AI and cause this balance to be lopsided.

Heroes are controlled by GW's AI. Its a computer, which processes and compute things way faster then any normal player. GW's AI also had a complete makeover over the past few weeks. More aware of their surroundings and of their opponent's next move. Their micromanagement for things are incomparable to those of a player. Relate this to games like Starcraft or Warcraft III. Players can only micro and do so much at once. However a computer can do all of this in a matter of seconds. Things like keeping track of who is wounded on their team, and also track those who are about to die in the opposing team. Same to running away from A.O.E or attacks and returning to safety.

In addition, a hero can also switch to manual control to its owner. It would be controlled by the owner and the owner can position them in strategic locations, Which makes up for the strategic positioning for a team full of players.

The addition of Player/AI controlled Heroes is a good thing, but should only be restricted to help you progress within the game. But since this combination of PvP with Heroes is already in effect, Players now are reduced to People counting with their fingers and toes VS. Modern time Calculators.

/signed

generik · Nov 05, 2006, 03:59 AM // 03:59

/unsigned

As a long time PvEer it is so hard for us to get into some HA action and earn some fame. For once we have customisable henchmen (heroes) which are good enough to do some HA. Now the same losers that excluded us from their teams turns around and whines?

Not a chance, if you can't win against the heroes you have no business playing in HA, still less excluding other players from your teams.

LoStLaNdS · Nov 05, 2006, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

/unsigned

As a long time PvEer it is so hard for us to get into some HA action and earn some fame. For once we have customisable henchmen (heroes) which are good enough to do some HA. Now the same losers that excluded us from their teams turns around and whines?

Not a chance, if you can't win against the heroes you have no business playing in HA, still less excluding other players from your teams.

Generik, Your post contradicts the other.

"As a long time PvEer it is so hard for us to get into some HA action and earn some fame."

"if you can't win against the heroes you have no business playing in HA"

This would mean those PvEers who doesn't have nightfall would have a much harder time getting in some HA Action, for everyone would be using Heroes and the number of extras in HA would fewer. And once in, they would probably have a harder time beating HA.

With this, There would be a new type of Elitist, 1 or 2 man groups other then its original 6.

This problem only seem to have occured when the new addition of Heroes and Nightfall was released.

Saider maul · Nov 05, 2006, 04:27 AM // 04:27

/unsigned

2 reasons...

1: This allows Players Who want to HA the ability to form their own team and learn/gain rank sense so many HA player wont even let you enter or speak unless you rank3+ and state build there after.
2: I feel if we build them, help run them to maximum performance then they are deserved and no different then a skilled player in a proper build. After all they do need help from time to time.

Mysterial · Nov 05, 2006, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

I mean, after a match in HA versus other human players, what usually happens? Each player on the team contributes to revised strategies and tactics. This is one of the elements of communication that make PvP so worthwhile. Everyone there gives his or her insights into the strengths and weaknesses of the team build, and offers ways to improve. You're getting five to seven different viewpoints there, which can only expand one's knowledge of the game and open new avenues of build design, both for the team and the individual.

There's no communication like that with Heroway. AI can't offer any type of advice in terms of what was being countered where, and what types of problems certain elements of the build suffered from. The strategizing and revision after Heroway loses is minimal at best, because it's only one person using a limited scope of game knowledge. That one player sure as hell does not specialize in everything--especially if said player is a newbie to PvP.

I don't think anyone's disputing that a good guild group (or at least friends) is better than anything else. However, if you were suggesting that more can be learned from a PUG than a hero team, I don't think you've played in many PUGs recently.