Curse

Zuranthium · Oct 17, 2006, 06:28 PM // 18:28

The one blanket statement I want to preface this with is that PBAOE spells (Aftershock, Inferno, etc.) should NOT have twice the after-cast time as compared to normal spells. Maybe 1/4 second extra but nothing more.

AIR

Air Attunement - Decrease recharge to 30 seconds and cast time to 1 second and set energy gain as 40%.

Chain Lightning - Increase to 15 energy and a 15 second recharge but remove exhaustion and decrease to a 2 second cast.

Glimmering Mark - Decrease cast time to 1/4 second.

Gust - Reduce to a 7 second recharge and 3/4 second cast time.

Invoke Lightning - Remove the "if not under the effects of an enchantment" conditionality.

Lightning Hammer - Reduce to 15 energy.

Lightning Orb - Make the spell "follow" your target a bit better than a normal projectile.

Lightning Surge - Give the damage 25% armor penetration and reduce to a 1 second cast.

Mind Shock - Cause knockdown even if the energy requirement is not met.

Ride the Lightning - Remove exhaustion and make the damage equal to Lightning Orb.

Teinai's Wind / Whirlwind - Increase AOE to "Nearby", plus slight damage increase and recharge decrease (equal to Gust for both, just to streamline these wind-type spells).

Thunderclap - Decrease to 5 energy and a 1 second cast.

Windborne Speed - Decrease casting time to 3/4 of a second.

EARTH

Churning Earth - Reduce to 20 energy, 2 second cast, and 15 second recharge.

Crystal Wave / Teinai's Crystals - Increase AOE to Nearby and decrease recharge to 15 seconds.

Dragon's Stomp / Earthquake - Increase AOE to "In The Area".

Earth Attunement - Decrease recharge to 30 seconds and cast time to 1 second and set energy gain as 40%

Ebon Hawk - Decrease casting time to 1 second and cause weakness ALWAYS.

Eruption - Reduce to 20 energy and a 15 second recharge and change secondary effect to 4 seconds of blindness on every hit.

Glowstone - Reduce recharge to 5 seconds.

Iron Mist - Decrease to 5 energy and slight duration increase to 5 + Attribute Rank.

Magnetic Aura - Reduce recharge to 45 seconds.

Obsidian Flesh - Increase armor bonus to +60.

Sandstorm - Reduce to 10 energy.

Shockwave - Increase damage to a max of 60 per hit at 16 Earth Magic and decrease recharge to 15 seconds.

Sliver Armor - Slight duration increase to 5 + (Attribute Rank/2) and slightly increase blocking % to 25 + (Attribute Rank multiplied by 2).

Stone Sheath - Decrease recharge to 10 seconds.

Unsteady Ground - Reduce to 10 energy and a 15 second recharge.

FIRE

Bed of Coals - Reduce to a 20 sec recharge.

Breath of Fire - Reduce to a 1 second cast and 15 second recharge.

Burning Speed - Have the duration scale with your Fire attribute (up to 10 seconds at 14 Fire, 11 seconds at 16 Fire) and cause it to set you on fire for 3 seconds instead of the entire duration.

Double Dragon - Reduce to 10 energy and a 15 second recharge, and have the second damage hit come 1 second after the first instead of 2 seconds after.

Fire Attunement - Decrease recharge to 30 seconds and cast time to 1 second and set energy gain as 40%

Firestorm - Increase the AOE to Nearby and decrease to a 20 second recharge.

Flame Djinn's Haste - Small duration increase (up to 13 seconds at 14 Fire, 14 seconds at 16 Fire).

Incendiary Bonds - Increase the damage to be equal to Fireball.

Lava Font - The update to the skill was just not what needed to be done; it's still fairly useless as a 2 second cast. Change it to a 1 second cast and drop the damage a bit.

Meteor - Increase to 10 Energy but decrease to a 2 second cast and 20 second recharge.

Meteor Shower - Increase AOE to nearby (no joke).

Mind Blast - Decrease casting time to 3/4 of a second and give 1/2 energy bonus even when requirement is not met.

Mind Burn - Reduce burning duration by 1 second but cause it even if the energy requirement is not met.

Phoenix - Decrease to a 2 second cast and have the projectile damage be equal to the PBAOE damage.

Rodgort's Invocation - Increase damage to be equal to Inferno.

Savannah Heat - Reduce energy cost to 10 and recharge to 15 seconds.

Searing Heat / Teinai's Heat - Decrease to 20 energy and a 15 second recharge, and change secondary effect to 4 seconds of burning on every hit.

Starburst - Increase damage to be equal to Inferno.

WATER

Armor of Frost - Reduce recharge to 30 seconds.

Frozen Burst - Reduce to a 20 second recharge.

Ice Prison / Teinai's Prison - Reduce cast time to 1 second.

Ice Spikes - Decrease recharge to 12 seconds.

Icy Prism - Decrease to 5 energy and a 1/4 second cast.

Icy Shackles - Should cause a base movement reduction of 30% no matter what, plus an extra 30% per enchantment on the target (max of 90%).

Maelstrom - Increase AOE to nearby.

Mind Freeze - Cause snare effect even if the energy requirement is not met and increase damage on each hit to 5 + (Attribute Rank multiplied by 3).

Rust - Reduce to a 1 second cast and 10 second recharge.

Shard Storm - Change to a regular hex/damage spell instead of being a projectile.

Shatterstone - Decrease casting time to 1 second and cause the second burst to interrupt the foe.

Swirling Aura - Decrease to 5 energy and a 1/4 second cast, and increase to a 75% block rate.

Vapor Blade - Cause 75% damage vs. enchanted foes instead of 50%.

Ward Against Harm - Decrease to 10 energy and slightly increase the overall bonus vs. non-fire damage (set it to half of the bonus vs. fire).

Water Attunement - Decrease recharge to 30 seconds and cast time to 1 second and set energy gain as 40%.

Water Trident - Reduce to a 2 second recharge.

ENERGY STORAGE

Elemental Attunement - Change duration to 10 + (Attribute Rank multiplied by 4) and reduce recharge to 30 seconds.

Energy Boon - Slight decrease in energy gain but remove the exhaustion.

Ether Renewal - 1 second duration increase.

NO ATTRIBUTE

Glyph of Essence - Should cause you to lose 10 energy instead of all energy.

Second Wind - Add 5 energy to the amount given back.

----------------

Random funny note - Teinai must have been a bad mage because I think all of his spells need a boost, LMAO.

BahamutKaiser · Oct 17, 2006, 06:40 PM // 18:40

I agree that most Elementist skills are just a little weak and a little expensive for their effect, especially since Elementist can often second another class and use cheaper skills for more damage and more potent effects.

But the General use of many of their skills is what I think needs the most improvement. Generally reducing the cast time on spells and allowing most nearby and location spells to be cast on any target would be a significant improvement to the way Elementist can be used. Aside from that, all self targeting AoE skills on Elementist should hit at least nearby foes, an Elementist should never need to be point blank to hit something, that is for Zealots Fire Monks who can do it right.

Align · Oct 17, 2006, 10:29 PM // 22:29

This would make it so you NEED to shut down an ele, or else you'll suffer.
I cant decide if I like it or not. The pyro in me says "YES PLZ", but there'll be a huge negative backlash from all the defenseless newcomers getting scorched.

frojack · Oct 17, 2006, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Very interesting. In bold...

(Anything not commented, I either agree or have no oppinion on)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

The one blanket statement I want to preface this with is that PBAOE spells (Aftershock, Inferno, etc.) should NOT have twice the after-cast time as compared to normal spells. Maybe 1/4 second extra but nothing more.

AIR

Chain Lightning - Increase to a 15 second recharge but remove exhaustion.

Conjure Lightning - Decrease to a 45 second recharge and increase the damage to 5 + rank in attribute.
Damage increase could open up abuse by other classes. Enchantment Duration should probably drop to 45 with recharge at 30.
Enchantments taking more than 30 seconds to recharge are really silly. Especially with all the 'hate' currently flying around...

Glimmering Mark - Reduce to a 1/4 second cast and 10 second recharge.

Gust - Reduce to a 1 second cast and 7 second recharge.

Lightning Hammer - Reduce to 15 energy.

Lightning Javelin - Decrease to a 3/4 sec cast, make the projectile arc normal instead of like a longbow, and give a small damage increase (equal to shock).

Lightning Orb - Make the spell "follow" your target better than a normal projectile.
I'd say that would be over-powered. This spell does huge damage (well, relative to other elementalist spells). It really needs to be dodgeable. We all know that while people strafe or run, they are not doing anything else

Lightning Touch - Reduce to 10 energy.

Lightning Surge - Give the damage 25% armor penetration.

Mind Shock - Cause knockdown even if the energy requirement is not met.
Not sure about this one. It's pretty good anyway. Killed a lot of people with this as it is. See no real reason for the buff.

Ride the Lightning - Remove exhaustion and make the damage equal to Lightning Orb.

Shock Arrow - Remove the recharge time and increase damage to 10 + (Attribute Rank multiplied by 2).

Teinai's Wind / Whirlwind - Slight damage increase (equal to Gust) and slight recharge decrease to 7 sec.

EARTH

Ash Blast - Increase damage to 10 + (Attribute Rank multiplied by 3).
I would also decrease recharge to 5 seconds. This is after all, a utility spell. The damage is negligle. Even with the buff.

Churning Earth - Reduce to 20 energy, 2 second cast, and 15 second recharge.
I'd say 1 second. AOE like this are really quite useless, unless you can string in a snare. 2+ second Cast times prohibit this...

Crystal Wave / Teinai's Crystals - Increase AOE to Nearby and decrease recharge to 10 seconds.

Dragon's Stomp / Earthquake - Increase AOE to "In The Area".

Eruption - Reduce to 20 energy, 2 second cast, and 15 second recharge.
Again, 1 second. It's supposed to be utility I guess. Problem is of course, is that in the time it takes to cast, you'd probably be dead...

Grasping Earth - Remove the armor bonus it gives to hexed foes.

Iron Mist - Slight duration increase to 5 + Attribute Rank.

Magnetic Aura - Decrease recharge to 45 seconds.
Again defensive enechantments like this should all follow the Sliver Armour example. Fairly short duration and short recharge. I'd say 11 and 30 respectively for this. Maybe even 25 on the recharge since it's only melee.

Shockwave - Increase damage to a max of 60 per hit at 16 Earth Magic and decrease recharge to 15 seconds.
I'd say 70 per hit. The proximity problem makes this a tricky one to use offensively. Defensively, your attackers have the armour to make you wish you'd used a different elite.

Sliver Armor - Increase overall duration to 1 + Attribute Rank and slightly increase blocking % to 25 + (Attribute Rank multiplied by 2).
I'd say it's fine as it is. It's really quite powerful. The Duration and recharge work quite well also. It seems to be at the sweet spot. If anything I'd say reduce cast-time to 3/4 like Armour of Earth, and increase Blocking percentage to 62 (like Armour of Earth's multiplier.

Unsteady Ground - Reduce to 10 energy and a 15 second recharge.
Again, cast time to 1 second.

Ward Against Elements - Reduce to 10 energy.

FIRE

Bed of Coals - Reduce to a 20 sec recharge.

Breath of Fire - Reduce to a 1 second cast and 15 second recharge.

Burning Speed - Make it a stance.

Conjure Flame - Decrease to a 45 second recharge and increase the damage to 5 + rank in attribute.
...same as Lightning...

Double Dragon - Remove the exhaustion, reduce to 10 energy and a 15 second recharge, and have the second damage hit come 1 second after the first instead of 2 seconds after.

Firestorm - Increase the AOE to Nearby and decrease to a 20 second recharge.

Incendiary Bonds - Increase the damage to be equal to Fireball.

Inferno - Reduce to a 10 second recharge.

Lava Arrows - Remove the half range component and increase damage by 6 points.

Lava Font - Reduce to a 1 second cast time.

Meteor - Increase to 10 Energy but decrease to a 2 second cast and 20 second recharge.

Mark of Rodgort - Reduce to 20 energy and cause burning on all adjacent foes when activated.
Over-powered. I'd say even elite worthy. Constant -7 degen is huge armour ignoring damage. That's on top of it's 5 second rechage and 1 second cast...

Meteor Shower - Increase AOE to nearby (no joke).

Mind Burn - Reduce burning duration by 1 second but cause it even if the energy requirement is not met.

Phoenix - Decrease to 10 energy, 2 second cast, 20 second recharge, and have the projectile damage be equal to the PBAOE damage.

Rodgort's Invocation - Increase damage to be equal to Inferno.

Searing Heat / Teinai's Heat - Decrease to 20 energy, 2 second cast, 15 second recharge, and increase burning to 5 sec.

Smoldering Embers - Reduce casting time to 1 second.

WATER

Armor of Frost - Remove the negative penalty against fire damage and reduce the recharge to 30 seconds.

Conjure Frost - Decrease to a 45 second recharge and increase the damage to 5 + rank in attribute.

Frozen Burst - Reduce to a 20 second recharge.

Ice Prison / Teinai's Prison - Reduce to a 1 second cast.

Ice Spikes - Slight damage increase (equal to Deep Freeze).

Icy Prism - Decrease to 5 energy and slighty increase damage (equal to Ice Spear).
I'd personally trade the damage and energy for a 1/2 or 1/4 second cast

Maelstrom - Increase AOE to nearby.

Mind Freeze - Cause snare effect even if the energy requirement is not met and increase damage on each hit to 5 + (Attribute Rank multiplied by 3).

Rust - Reduce to a 1 second cast and 10 second recharge.

Shard Storm - Slight damage increase (equal to Ice Spear).

Shatterstone - Reduce to 10 energy and a 1 second cast, make the first hit of damage equal to the second, and cause each hit to interrupt the foe's action.
Good change! Though I'd up the damage to 84 maxed for each burst. There are 3 whole seconds to mitigate the damage

Swirling Aura - Decrease to 5 energy, 1/4 second cast, 45 second recharge, and increase to a 75% block rate.
I'd give this a 10 second duration, 20-25 second recharge, 1/4 second cast, but leave the evade percentage at 50%

Vapor Blade - Reduce to 10 energy.

Ward Against Harm - Decrease to 10 energy and slightly increase the overall bonus vs. non-fire damage (set it to half of the bonus vs. fire).

Water Trident - Reduce to a 2 second recharge.

ENERGY STORAGE -- suggestion -- simply being an Elementalist and having this attribute should give the caster 15% energy back on any ELE spell they cast. Basically 1 less energy for 10cc spells, 2 energy for 15cc, 3 energy for 20cc, and 4 energy for 25cc.

Energy Boon - Slight decrease in energy gain but remove the exhaustion.

Ether Renewal - 1 second duration increase.

NO ATTRIBUTE

Glyph of Lesser Energy - Reduce to a 20 second recharge.

Glyph of Elemental Power - Should give you 3 energy back when the spell is cast.

Second Wind - Add 5 energy to the amount given back.

----------------

Random funny note - Teinai must have been a bad mage because I think all of his spells need a boost, LMAO.

Zuranthium · Oct 18, 2006, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Align

This would make it so you NEED to shut down an ele, or else you'll suffer.

I think it makes it more of a "move it or lose it". AOE-over-time spells right now are all gimped, with the exception of Meteor Shower. That one is even a bit weak, though, as it only really shines at VoD or sometimes on the Altar. With the new changes mass Elementalist damage would actually be a viable tactic that requires the enemy to do more than take two steps every so often if they want to completely avoid the effects. Instead they have to be moving around almost constantly if they don't want to suffer large amounts of damage. I think it makes Elem AOE viable for real play, much as trapping is.

-----------------

Responses for Frojack:

Conjure "Element" Spell Line - It's only a 4 damage increase, I don't think that makes it abusable at all. Just playable. It would be most powerful on an Assassin but any less than 12 in Dagger or 13 in Crit Strikes hampers either their damage or their energy management, making it an equal tradeoff if they want to pump a ton of points into an elemental line.

Defensive Enchantments - A shorter duration but an even quicker recharge could work too. You'd definitely wanna keep Swirling at 75% though. Whatever the change I think they should be able to be up for at least half the time...so Sliver does need a bit of an increase (my suggestion might have been slightly too much but at the same time I don't even think so because it's a more specific skill and many builds would continue running Armor of Earth anyway).

Mark of Rodgort - It's not constant -7 degen...the degen is conditional. If the spell flat out said "cause burning on target and all adjacent foes for 30+ seconds and reapply this burning every 3 seconds", hell yes, that would be overpowered.

Lightning Orb - It does 21 more damage than Fireball for 50% more energy. For a 15cc spell I think it needs a little something extra. It only sees so much play on Elem runner bars because there simply isn't anything better. If there was a spell that was an exact copy of Fireball in the Air line, I'm pretty sure that spell would always be used instead.

Shockwave - I wanted to cap the spell at 60 so that Spirit Bond doesn't make it worthless. Telporting E/A's could do great Aftershock + Shockwave spikes if PBAOE's weren't gimped.

Churning Earth, Unsteady Ground, Searing Heat, etc. - They would be overpowered at a 1 second cast time if you still want to keep the low recharge. Breath of Fire is fine at a 1 second cast because the AOE is only adjacent.

TadaceAce · Oct 18, 2006, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Bravo, I like this guy, are you the same guy that did the assassin skills? Anet listen to this guy. Very well thought out, these buffs would make eles deal more sustained damage while still keeping their spike capability at a good level.

Zuranthium · Oct 18, 2006, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Yes, I did the Assassin write-up as well.

Oh a GW forum · Oct 18, 2006, 03:17 AM // 03:17

So, because you play an ele you want half the ele skills to get a buff?

Doesn't work that way... anet has beta testers for a reason. I don't see how you are qualified to declare that all these skills NEED "fixing"...

Flopjack · Oct 18, 2006, 03:23 AM // 03:23

For real, it honestly doesn't sound like you look closely enough at Ele skills or the attributes the skills are under.

Zuranthium · Oct 18, 2006, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oh a GW forum

So, because you play an ele you want half the ele skills to get a buff?

I play all classes and will be doing a write-up for every class.

I've looked at the skills quite closely, actually. I have played this game since its release and have a firm knowledge of how they all work within each sect of the game. My goal going into all of these changes is that every single skill in the game needs to be playable in GvG and/or HA.

80% of these skills never see play in serious PvP. That alone should be enough for anyone to question if they are balanced well enough. I say "no" and these are my solutions. It will only help if you discuss and give thoughtful input instead of just being afraid of change and saying "no way!" without giving any kind of supporting argument or thinking about why these skills never see play.

For anyone who knows the game in-depth I believe that almost all of these changes are pretty much no-brainers that NEED to happen if skill balance is of any concern (even if you don't agree with the exact change I listed). There are definitely some changes that I can see being contentious and I would love to explain my point of view to anyone who has a different viewpoint and hear their opinions as well.

inscribed · Oct 18, 2006, 04:49 AM // 04:49

I outright dismiss anyone who says elementalists don't need a buff in their damage capabilities. With the exception of a very few skills, elementalist are completely lacking in damage dealing compared with other classes. Every other class, with the exception of possibly a mesmer, can out damage them.

Look up the thread "Why nuking sucks" in the elementalist forums if you are unconvinced.

I agree with most of the skill changes listed, more or less. Something needs to be done in any case, otherwise elementalists will forever be locked into their 'support/heal bot' role.

BahamutKaiser · Oct 18, 2006, 04:49 AM // 04:49

There are weak skills in every class, but a barage of weak skills makes the class weak. Even if the class has "some" combinations which are strong, with only a few strong combinations compared to dozens in other classes, it is overall a weaker class.

I think it is natural to point out Assassins skill weakness and Elementist skill weakness because these are the ones which suffer disapproval the most. And no matter how good some of thier builds are, their overall skill pool has less productive builds to choose from than other classes, which is why they are disliked in whole.

Improving weak skills in all classes would be a great asset to the game. And starting with the ones who need improvements the most is the most rational thing to do. Only a moron does maintenance on the working wheel before fixing the flat. It is one thing to balance your tires when they are all in working condition, it is another thing to overlook a flat or damage tire for a working one.

I think the most promenant weakness throughout all classes is massive skill recharge on certain skills. It basicly makes them part time skills, and using one of your 8 skill slots for something your only getting part time use out of will always suck. If the skill doesn't have an exagerated effect, it shouldn't have ridiculously large costs and recasts, and some recast are so long that you simply can't justify that much output, either the damage needs to go up, or the cost and recast need to go down. This is most prevalent in elementist, who spends twice as much cost for the same output as other classes, which totaly counters the usefulness of their Primary, putting them at a clear disadvantage. And if your trying to convince others that 2 energy managment skills and a maxed primary is a fair ability to compete with other classes who simply put out just as much (and sometimes more) with thier cheaper skills, than your just bonkers.

But unlike alot of classes, I still think Function is just as much a problem as Frequency for this class. Although simply being able to recast DoT spells Frequently would make it rather useful. It really makes no sense to wait 30 seconds to recast Fire Storm.

NeHoMaR · Oct 18, 2006, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Shockwave - I wanted to cap the spell at 60 so that Spirit Bond doesn't make it worthless.

Balance

both skills was released at the same time (Factions)

Similar thing happen in Nightfall, with necro skills that counter the "overpower" of Paragons.

draxynnic · Oct 18, 2006, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Comments inline, using underlines:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

The one blanket statement I want to preface this with is that PBAOE spells (Aftershock, Inferno, etc.) should NOT have twice the after-cast time as compared to normal spells. Maybe 1/4 second extra but nothing more.

AIR

Chain Lightning - Increase to a 15 second recharge but remove exhaustion.
I think the Nightfall elite Invoke Lightning is looking to do what you're angling for here - and that has a condition on losing exhaustion! If you don't have any other exhaustion-related skills on your bar, think of this as more of a 30 second recharge skill, with the ability to cast faster in a pinch.

Conjure Lightning - Decrease to a 45 second recharge and increase the damage to 5 + rank in attribute.
My W/E would love that change! Seriously, I don't think a damage increase is really needed - I think it's intent is to provide a little boost during downtime between spells (one that doesn't cost 5e/second, that is!), but wanding still shouldn't be your main damage output! Shorter recharge would be nice, though, to give a little leeway in when to reapply it, and to make enchantment-hate a little less painful.

Glimmering Mark - Reduce to a 1/4 second cast and 10 second recharge.
Shorter recharge would be nice, especially when the enemy tends to die before the hex runs its course. I don't think a casting time decrease - especially one so drastic - is really necassary, though. And when you get down to it... wouldn't it be only fair to let the pack get one or two swings every 15 seconds where they can actually see?

Gust - Reduce to a 1 second cast and 7 second recharge.
Seems reasonable. The main benefit is hard enough to pull off as it is without the hex you're basing it off getting stripped (or simply expiring) while you're halfway through casting.

Lightning Hammer - Reduce to 15 energy.
This would just make it Lightning Orb without the miss chance. I agree that it's overpriced in the energy stakes, but 15 is a little low. It's a shame that we don't seem to have 20e skills - maybe some secondary effect, like a small AOE effect around the target doing half damage or a Lightning Javelin like interrupt of attacking targets, could make it a little more attractive?

Lightning Javelin - Decrease to a 3/4 sec cast, make the projectile arc normal instead of like a longbow, and give a small damage increase (equal to shock).
Looks good - only reason I've ever heard of anyone using this one after gaining a few levels under their belt (it does have decent damage at low Air attribute scores, but how often does that matter at level 20?) is simply to put another air damage skill to add to the spiking, and there are so many better options. And as a means of damage mitigation, the interrupt is greatly inferior to Enervating Charge - giving it a decent chance to reactively interrupt attack skills, however, would go a long way to improving its utility.

Lightning Orb - Make the spell "follow" your target better than a normal projectile.
Are you trying to make this and Lightning Hammer virtual duplicates? Seriously, it's not really needed - the chance to miss is why it doesn't cost as much as the Hammer.

Lightning Touch - Reduce to 10 energy.
My W/E would like this one too - especially when pet Elementalist heroes that can carry Water AOEs become available...

Lightning Surge - Give the damage 25% armor penetration.
Never really used this one, so I'll nocomment it

Mind Shock - Cause knockdown even if the energy requirement is not met.
Again, no experience, no comment - except that I expect careful choice of targets can make sure the requirement is met ;-)

Ride the Lightning - Remove exhaustion and make the damage equal to Lightning Orb.
Agreed. I can't think of many reasons you'd want this as it is rather than simply taking an Assassin secondary. Being an elite skill and having Exhaustion is a big price to pay - the exhaustion makes it very expensive for most non-Elementalists, and most Elementalists that have reason to get that close would probably rather shadowstep.

Shock Arrow - Remove the recharge time and increase damage to 10 + (Attribute Rank multiplied by 2).
Seems to be a decent adjustment

Teinai's Wind / Whirlwind - Slight damage increase (equal to Gust) and slight recharge decrease to 7 sec.
I always thought of the damage of this one to be secondary to the area knockdown. Can't really see how much difference this would make, so no other comment

EARTH

Ash Blast - Increase damage to 10 + (Attribute Rank multiplied by 3).
My first reaction was that that was too much, then I realised that the skills I was comparing it against (Stone Daggers and Flare) did a little more damage than I thought they did - so this boost would only make it equivalent to the other two in damage, with the conditional effect balanced by the longer recharge. However, I'd say a more significant change would be to decrease the cast time to make it easier to achieve the conditional effect.

Churning Earth - Reduce to 20 energy, 2 second cast, and 15 second recharge.
Lack of experience -> No comment

Crystal Wave / Teinai's Crystals - Increase AOE to Nearby and decrease recharge to 10 seconds.
These are pretty nasty skills as they are because of the large amounts of armour-ignoring damage. I don't think a recharge decrease is really necassary.

Dragon's Stomp / Earthquake - Increase AOE to "In The Area".
My elementalist primary says yes. My other characters ask "Aren't Jade Brotherhood mobs bad enough as they are?"

Eruption - Reduce to 20 energy, 2 second cast, and 15 second recharge.
Again, no comment.

Grasping Earth - Remove the armor bonus it gives to hexed foes.
This is referred to as flavour for the skill. With a bit of coordination with your party, you can make this armour bonus irrelevant.

Iron Mist - Slight duration increase to 5 + Attribute Rank.
Owwww... Do you know how painful it is to be hit with a 90% speed reduction hex?

Magnetic Aura - Decrease recharge to 45 seconds.
Agreed

Shockwave - Increase damage to a max of 60 per hit at 16 Earth Magic and decrease recharge to 15 seconds.
Hrrmn. Possibly. I found it nice enough as it is, however.

Sliver Armor - Increase overall duration to 1 + Attribute Rank and slightly increase blocking % to 25 + (Attribute Rank multiplied by 2).
Have you, by any chance, met a Shiro'ken Elementalist boss? They're painful enough as it is unless you have an enchantment-stripper who's really on the ball...

Unsteady Ground - Reduce to 10 energy and a 15 second recharge.
I think that would be an excessive buff. It's pretty powerful as it is - one of the few DOTAOEs I've really paid much attention to since the AI adjustment

Ward Against Elements - Reduce to 10 energy.
Hrrmn. Yes, at 15 energy, it does seem expensive compared to Ward Against Melee

FIRE

Bed of Coals - Reduce to a 20 sec recharge.
Allowing you to have it up half the time... but is that a bad thing, since Lava Font can be kept up indefinitely?

Breath of Fire - Reduce to a 1 second cast and 15 second recharge.
Yeah, I've wanted to be able to be able to cast this one more often myself. Not sure the reduction in casting time is really necassary, though - currently, it's equivalent to Fireball, which I think is about right for what it does.

Burning Speed - Make it a stance.
Agreed

Conjure Flame - Decrease to a 45 second recharge and increase the damage to 5 + rank in attribute.
See Conjure Lightning

Double Dragon - Remove the exhaustion, reduce to 10 energy and a 15 second recharge, and have the second damage hit come 1 second after the first instead of 2 seconds after.
Um... This one does a goredengineload of damage as it is, and the delay means it doesn't set off the AOE code (not on it's own, anyway). I think the price is pretty decent for two Infernos in quick succession.

Firestorm - Increase the AOE to Nearby and decrease to a 20 second recharge.
AOE increase could work. I don't think the recharge time reduction would really be necassary then, though.

Incendiary Bonds - Increase the damage to be equal to Fireball.
Include the burning, and it's already doing more damage than Fireball - and armour-ignoring, to boost. I think this one's fine as it is.

Inferno - Reduce to a 10 second recharge.
I think ANet was going for a certain balance between Flame Burst and Inferno - one that can be done regularly at high cost, one that can be done infrequently but relatively cheaply for its damage. This would probably upset that balance.

Lava Arrows - Remove the half range component and increase damage by 6 points.
Not sure about the damage increase, but I'll agree that the half range is annoying

Lava Font - Reduce to a 1 second cast time.
Not sure either way on this one

Meteor - Increase to 10 Energy but decrease to a 2 second cast and 20 second recharge.
Again, not sure either way

Mark of Rodgort - Reduce to 20 energy and cause burning on all adjacent foes when activated.
Too nasty. While I previous poster did point out that the effect was conditional, it's not exactly a hard condition to fill, especially with some party coordination

Meteor Shower - Increase AOE to nearby (no joke).
Could actually work

Mind Burn - Reduce burning duration by 1 second but cause it even if the energy requirement is not met.
See Mind Shock

Phoenix - Decrease to 10 energy, 2 second cast, 20 second recharge, and have the projectile damage be equal to the PBAOE damage.
I think any balancing of this skill should start with a reduction in the cast time - at present, it's far too easy to run away from. Given that, the other changes may not be necassary, and the energy cost decrease is certainly unnecassary - consider the equivalent cost of firing off Fireball and Inferno.

Rodgort's Invocation - Increase damage to be equal to Inferno.
In my experience, Rodgort's is powerful enough as is.

Searing Heat / Teinai's Heat - Decrease to 20 energy, 2 second cast, 15 second recharge, and increase burning to 5 sec.
These skills do need a little more bang for their buck, yes, but I'm not convinced all THAT is necassary...

Smoldering Embers - Reduce casting time to 1 second.
Slightly more powerful than Flare, significant recharge time, easily-avoided conditional effect... yeah, seems to be a fair adjustment.

WATER

Armor of Frost - Remove the negative penalty against fire damage and reduce the recharge to 30 seconds.
Again, the penalty is flavour - just be careful who you use it against. Being able to keep it up longer would be nice, though.

Conjure Frost - Decrease to a 45 second recharge and increase the damage to 5 + rank in attribute.
See...yeah, you know

Frozen Burst - Reduce to a 20 second recharge.
I can agree with this one.

Ice Prison / Teinai's Prison - Reduce to a 1 second cast.
Seems reasonable

Ice Spikes - Slight damage increase (equal to Deep Freeze).
That [/i]is[i] a slight increase. Simple enough to leave it as it is - the snaring effect is probably the more important effect.

Icy Prism - Decrease to 5 energy and slighty increase damage (equal to Ice Spear).
Probably a little much. I'd probably say that a casting speed increase is probably more important to make it a decent signet-interrupt - the rest is really secondary. After all, Mesmer interrupts don't do ANYTHING unless there's something to interrupt...

Maelstrom - Increase AOE to nearby.
Fair enough

Mind Freeze - Cause snare effect even if the energy requirement is not met and increase damage on each hit to 5 + (Attribute Rank multiplied by 3).
As the other Mind spells - although I will note that this one is one of the more annoying Mind skills from the perspective of the target. At least as is there is a CHANCE of avoiding the hex part.

Rust - Reduce to a 1 second cast and 10 second recharge.
Making it even easier to keep it on everything?

Shard Storm - Slight damage increase (equal to Ice Spear).
See Ice Spikes

Shatterstone - Reduce to 10 energy and a 1 second cast, make the first hit of damage equal to the second, and cause each hit to interrupt the foe's action.
No to the interrupt part. As for the rest... maybe. It is elite, after all.

Swirling Aura - Decrease to 5 energy, 1/4 second cast, 45 second recharge, and increase to a 75% block rate.
Hrrmn. Reasonable

Vapor Blade - Reduce to 10 energy.
Agreed

Ward Against Harm - Decrease to 10 energy and slightly increase the overall bonus vs. non-fire damage (set it to half of the bonus vs. fire).
Seems reasonable

Water Trident - Reduce to a 2 second recharge.
Hrrmn. Not sure about this one.

ENERGY STORAGE -- suggestion -- simply being an Elementalist and having this attribute should give the caster 15% energy back on any ELE spell they cast. Basically 1 less energy for 10cc spells, 2 energy for 15cc, 3 energy for 20cc, and 4 energy for 25cc.
I disagree. At the very MOST, it should be 1%/rank - make you have to put in the ranks to gain the benefit. We don't want it to be simply 'just because you're an Elementalist, you get this bonus', which it would be if it only required one rank.

Energy Boon - Slight decrease in energy gain but remove the exhaustion.
How much, exactly, is 'slight'? One does have to be careful here not to give free energy away - I think the general idea is that when it comes time to use Energy Boon, the exhaustion cost doesn't really matter anyway.

Ether Renewal - 1 second duration increase.
No comment due to lack of experience

NO ATTRIBUTE

Glyph of Lesser Energy - Reduce to a 20 second recharge.
Would be useful

Glyph of Elemental Power - Should give you 3 energy back when the spell is cast.
Nah. It's already giving you a nice benefit.

Second Wind - Add 5 energy to the amount given back.
In order to offset the casting cost? Seems reasonable.

----------------

Random funny note - Teinai must have been a bad mage because I think all of his spells need a boost, LMAO.

As a general comment: There does seem to be some nice stuff for elementalists coming in Nightfall. We may find that the Ele is less obviously in need of buffing when the other stuff comes in.

Brother Redmund · Oct 18, 2006, 06:40 AM // 06:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Lightning Hammer - Reduce to 15 energy.

There is a reason this spell costs 25; it has precisely the same effect (dmg and armor pen.) of lightning orb, but like lightning strike or enervating charge, cannot miss the target. I suspect this is why it costs 25 energy, whereas orb costs less but can be strafed ^^

Dr Strangelove · Oct 18, 2006, 08:00 AM // 08:00

I'm unsure on a few of these. Most wouldn't be that imbalancing however, considering how imbalanced warrior and sin damage is already. I wholeheartedly agree on the aftercast thing. Who thought that would be a good idea? If anything, they should have a low aftercast so you can run like hell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

The one blanket statement I want to preface this with is that PBAOE spells (Aftershock, Inferno, etc.) should NOT have twice the after-cast time as compared to normal spells. Maybe 1/4 second extra but nothing more.

AIR

Chain Lightning - Increase to a 15 second recharge but remove exhaustion.

Conjure Lightning - Decrease to a 45 second recharge and increase the damage to 5 + rank in attribute. Don't think the damage needs a boost, but 60 second recharge with 60 sec duration is pretty stupid.

Glimmering Mark - Reduce to a 1/4 second cast and 10 second recharge.

Gust - Reduce to a 1 second cast and 7 second recharge.

Lightning Hammer - Reduce to 15 energy. 15 energy or 5 sec recharge or increased damage would all be ok on this one

Lightning Javelin - Decrease to a 3/4 sec cast, make the projectile arc normal instead of like a longbow, and give a small damage increase (equal to shock).This is already a halfway decent skill, you spam it at people for the random chance of interrupts. The damage is already equal to lightning strike with less recharge

Lightning Orb - Make the spell "follow" your target better than a normal projectile. No way, this is a nice spell already

Lightning Touch - Reduce to 10 energy. Another idea would be to make it a spell so ele energy management works on it. But really, it just needs a recharge reduction since you have to build your entire build around it

Lightning Surge - Give the damage 25% armor penetration.

Mind Shock - Cause knockdown even if the energy requirement is not met. The real killer on mind spells is the exhaustion. get rid of that, increase the cost and the recharge and you're good

Ride the Lightning - Remove exhaustion and make the damage equal to Lightning Orb.

Shock Arrow - Remove the recharge time and increase damage to 10 + (Attribute Rank multiplied by 2).

Teinai's Wind / Whirlwind - Slight damage increase (equal to Gust) and slight recharge decrease to 7 sec.these aren't used for damage. In fact, mostly warriors use it in PvE, where it's a great skill

EARTH

Ash Blast - Increase damage to 10 + (Attribute Rank multiplied by 3).damage doesn't matter much. It needs a faster casting time to be able to catch KDed people though

Churning Earth - Reduce to 20 energy, 2 second cast, and 15 second recharge. 25 e is ok it is a nice damage AoE if nothing else

Crystal Wave / Teinai's Crystals - Increase AOE to Nearby and decrease recharge to 10 seconds. On one hand, these are decent spells already. On the other, they have major drawbacks that would indicate a great effect, which they don't have.

Dragon's Stomp / Earthquake - Increase AOE to "In The Area".

Eruption - Reduce to 20 energy, 2 second cast, and 15 second recharge. same as churning

Grasping Earth - Remove the armor bonus it gives to hexed foes. still worthless

Iron Mist - Slight duration increase to 5 + Attribute Rank.still not so hot. It's easily removed

Magnetic Aura - Decrease recharge to 45 seconds.

Shockwave - Increase damage to a max of 60 per hit at 16 Earth Magic and decrease recharge to 15 seconds. No way, this does nice damage already

Sliver Armor - Increase overall duration to 1 + Attribute Rank and slightly increase blocking % to 25 + (Attribute Rank multiplied by 2). While the duration does suck, it can be nice for farming builds as it is. I'm unsure

Unsteady Ground - Reduce to 10 energy and a 15 second recharge.I never understood why ele elites cost so much energy. Using them means not using elite energy management, and thus blowing it all on your elite spell

Ward Against Elements - Reduce to 10 energy.

FIRE

Bed of Coals - Reduce to a 20 sec recharge.

Breath of Fire - Reduce to a 1 second cast and 15 second recharge.

Burning Speed - Make it a stance.

Conjure Flame - Decrease to a 45 second recharge and increase the damage to 5 + rank in attribute.

Double Dragon - Remove the exhaustion, reduce to 10 energy and a 15 second recharge, and have the second damage hit come 1 second after the first instead of 2 seconds after.starburst is still better

Firestorm - Increase the AOE to Nearby and decrease to a 20 second recharge.

Incendiary Bonds - Increase the damage to be equal to Fireball.

Inferno - Reduce to a 10 second recharge.

Lava Arrows - Remove the half range component and increase damage by 6 points. Just tossing the half range thing would be ok.

Lava Font - Reduce to a 1 second cast time.

Meteor - Increase to 10 Energy but decrease to a 2 second cast and 20 second recharge.

Mark of Rodgort - Reduce to 20 energy and cause burning on all adjacent foes when activated. 25 energy if it causes burning on all adjacent foes, 10 energy if it stays as it is. It really sucks to reapply this.

Meteor Shower - Increase AOE to nearby (no joke).No joke? This does a job and does it well. Leave it alone.

Mind Burn - Reduce burning duration by 1 second but cause it even if the energy requirement is not met. Same as mind shock, exhaustion is the problem

Phoenix - Decrease to 10 energy, 2 second cast, 20 second recharge, and have the projectile damage be equal to the PBAOE damage. 15 energy is ok since it's fireball + inferno, although the recharge and cast time suck

Rodgort's Invocation - Increase damage to be equal to Inferno.

Searing Heat / Teinai's Heat - Decrease to 20 energy, 2 second cast, 15 second recharge, and increase burning to 5 sec. For this and eruption, I prefer the idea of them causing burning or blindness on every hit for a couple seconds.

Smoldering Embers - Reduce casting time to 1 second.

WATER

Armor of Frost - Remove the negative penalty against fire damage and reduce the recharge to 30 seconds.30 seconds still makes this suck

Conjure Frost - Decrease to a 45 second recharge and increase the damage to 5 + rank in attribute.

Frozen Burst - Reduce to a 20 second recharge.

Ice Prison / Teinai's Prison - Reduce to a 1 second cast.

Ice Spikes - Slight damage increase (equal to Deep Freeze).

Icy Prism - Decrease to 5 energy and slighty increase damage (equal to Ice Spear).

Maelstrom - Increase AOE to nearby.

Mind Freeze - Cause snare effect even if the energy requirement is not met and increase damage on each hit to 5 + (Attribute Rank multiplied by 3).

Rust - Reduce to a 1 second cast and 10 second recharge.

Shard Storm - Slight damage increase (equal to Ice Spear).

Shatterstone - Reduce to 10 energy and a 1 second cast, make the first hit of damage equal to the second, and cause each hit to interrupt the foe's action.Maybe with the interrupts this would be ok, still not so hot

Swirling Aura - Decrease to 5 energy, 1/4 second cast, 45 second recharge, and increase to a 75% block rate.

Vapor Blade - Reduce to 10 energy.

Ward Against Harm - Decrease to 10 energy and slightly increase the overall bonus vs. non-fire damage (set it to half of the bonus vs. fire).

Water Trident - Reduce to a 2 second recharge.

ENERGY STORAGE -- suggestion -- simply being an Elementalist and having this attribute should give the caster 15% energy back on any ELE spell they cast. Basically 1 less energy for 10cc spells, 2 energy for 15cc, 3 energy for 20cc, and 4 energy for 25cc. so with dual attunements you get 95% back? I'm unsure, but it does suck as it is. The only reason to bring it is for a few skills in the line. Of course, the same could be said of strength

Energy Boon - Slight decrease in energy gain but remove the exhaustion.

Ether Renewal - 1 second duration increase. This will stay nerfed into oblivion thanks to dervishes and smiters. Way to go guys

NO ATTRIBUTE

Glyph of Lesser Energy - Reduce to a 20 second recharge.But then it won't be the pip glyph!

Glyph of Elemental Power - Should give you 3 energy back when the spell is cast. Doesn't need energy, but since you have to cast it every time, a bonus of 4 might be better

Second Wind - Add 5 energy to the amount given back.

----------------

Random funny note - Teinai must have been a bad mage because I think all of his spells need a boost, LMAO.

Riotgear · Oct 18, 2006, 09:42 AM // 09:42

I can't believe you didn't list Blurred Vision as needing a recharge reduction. :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Redmund

There is a reason this spell costs 25; it has precisely the same effect (dmg and armor pen.) of lightning orb, but like lightning strike or enervating charge, cannot miss the target. I suspect this is why it costs 25 energy, whereas orb costs less but can be strafed ^^

It also has a rather huge recharge. 5e + exhaustion would actually suit it quite well, but as it is now, it's ridiculous to run hammer without dual attunements. Are there ANY other spike skills that cost 25 energy?

I could argue for specific skill changes, but I think the problem with the class runs deeper than that.
- Too many skills are needed to keep the same effects going persistantly
- Too many skills have side-effects or conditions that ruin their usefulness
- None of the skill lines pack the diversity of lines like Curses, Wilderness Survival, or Domination Magic
- There's very little synergy with other professions' skill lines, and the synergy among the class's own lines is limited.
- Basic attunements are fragile, recharge slow, and not even good enough to spam the good spells in any particular line, yet all of the skill costs are balanced around them.
- Elemental damage is spikey, yet easily mitigated.

In general, I think the problem is that most other ranged classes either simply do more damage, cause very harmful side-effects, or more often, both. The strategic use of ele skills aside from wards and gale is rather limited, so either that needs to be improved (i.e. more fire spells that cause burning, more diverse water hexes, more conditions/knockdown stuff in air), or the damage needs to be buffed significantly.

Zuranthium · Oct 18, 2006, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Some responses to things multiple people have questioned:

Glyph of Elemental Power - It increases the damage of the average spell by like 12 damage. 5 energy for 12 damage is horrible. It has a place for some spike builds but I was trying to give it a broader use.

Lightning Orb vs Lightning Hammer - Even with both at 15e I believe they'd be balanced. Hammer always hits while Orb would have a partial miss chance but the difference is in the recharge times...5 sec on Orb and 15 sec on Hammer.

Phoenix - I realize my change just turns it into a Fireball with an added PBAOE damage component. But, once again, the difference is in the recharge times. 20 seconds means that both Fireball and Inferno are going to be superior most times and this will remain a speciality skill.

Inferno - If Aftershock can do 177 damage every 10 seconds than this most certainly should be a 10 sec recharge. Flame Burst would still definitely be better for some builds because it hits a larger area and recharges quicker.

Ice Spikes/Ice Shards/Whirlwind/Ice Prism - The extra damage is mostly symbolic, really. Just trying to get all the spell lines with a certain parameter for these spells. For Ice Shards specifically I don't think the 5cc Ice Spear should be doing more damage.

Incendiary Bonds - It's doing 7 more damage than Fireball right now. Perhaps a little bit more when you account for a part of the damage being burning that ignores armor. However, it costs 5 more energy and has twice the recharge of Fireball. For the small amount of extra damage it does that's not worth it...needs to be increased.

Eruption/Searing Heat - I agree that the effects should be applied on every hit. I thought about that myself but bailed out when typing this up...I don't know why now.

Energy Storage Attribute - Spreading the bonus out across the attribute ranks would be better, I agree with whoever said that. A base of 2% + 1% per rank would be good.

Zuranthium · Oct 18, 2006, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

As a general comment: There does seem to be some nice stuff for elementalists coming in Nightfall. We may find that the Ele is less obviously in need of buffing when the other stuff comes in.

No matter what comes out in further expansions, it doesn't changed how weak most of these spells are. Worthless skills shouldn't just be sitting around taking up space in the game.

Riotgear · Oct 18, 2006, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Lol, I dunno if you're sarcastic or not. 20 seconds is fine for a spell with a potential 21 second duration that can potentially hit multiple people. It's no SHADOW OF FEAR but that's not what this line specializes in either.

"It's no shadow of fear" is exactly the point. Spells like SoF are what give a class threat and legitimacy. And as far as not being what the line specializes in, that's the other half of the problem, a line specializing in one effect and not having much of anything in others isn't very good. Rangers don't have a whole line "specializing in cripple."

Chilling Winds may make things slightly more interesting.