Curse

Lykan · Nov 16, 2006, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyro

The guild ladder is reset after each season right? I assume that is to stop certain guilds to gain a headstart at new guilds, while they aren't the most skilled guild. Now why not reset the fame to make certain players get a headstart w/o having to be the most skilled?

Im sure i've posted this answer before but well.

Rank 1 on the guild ladder can be achieved in weeks, Rank 9/10/11 in Fame, well some people have taken well over a year to achieve. That may have been a option at the start of the game but its too late now.
I'm sure everyone would be sooooo happy if fame was reset.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bloodrose

I think it's funny that a large % of the people that tell the PvE-ers to adapt, to quit bitching about the pre-NF nerf are PvPers. So I got a few words of advice to all those that bitch to us. Adapt, quit bitching, get some skill. Gaile has said multiple times 6v6 is here to stay, and guess what. If they haven't dealth with the heros in HA by now, they probably wont. Most of the people bitching aren't a high rank either, because higher ranks would be able to counter heroway, just as they did Iway, vimway, etc.

But it would also be interesting to see what problem Anet addresses first. PvP or PvE.
..
Oh and I've gotten a few groups together to do HA lately, won and lost a few times. Had fun regardless. IMO I just think people are pissy about losing to AI. *giggle*

Wow you win, these are truely the most worthwhile posts in this topic.
This thread is about the devaluation of PvP not whinging about losing to heros. Heros are easily rolled but it gets kinda boring and unchallenging when you have to do it every match. Especially as they all play the same build... Boring! If I wanted to play PvE against AI I would.
Read the entire thread and come back with something useful please.

Siren · Nov 16, 2006, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bloodrose

Thats my opinion. And you are welcome to disagree.

Oh and I've gotten a few groups together to do HA lately, won and lost a few times. Had fun regardless. IMO I just think people are pissy about losing to AI. *giggle*

Don't be a troll.

Nurse With Wound · Nov 16, 2006, 07:53 PM // 19:53

I posted several long posts about whole issue in Heroes Ascend subforum. No point in copy - pasting it here.

Anyway, gg Yunas on your post.

Definatly SIGNED bring back player to player vs player.

The Hand Of Death · Nov 16, 2006, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIH49

Whenever someone poses to me the elitist issue, I ask them to solve this dilemma:

Suppose that rank is meaningless. If this is true, then an unranked person should be able to gather unranked people and perform equally as well as the ranked people. As such, there should be no desire to enter ranked groups in the first place. The complaint is negated.

Suppose that rank is meaningful. If this is true, then why should it be wrong or surprising that the ranked exclude the unranked from teams? As such, there should be no opportunity to enter ranked groups in the first place and the complaint is negated.

If you can solve my dilemma, I'll take you seriously with regards to "elitism being a problem". I rather doubt you will though.

One problem is is that some unranked people are not good at all, making it so that unranked people who feel that they are good will not want to get together in groups of unranked people. Now lets face it, there will always be noobs in HA, and just because there are unranked people in HA who are not ranked are noob, doesn't mean they all are. It is fairly hard to find unranked groups with people who really know what they are actually doing.

If rank was meaningful I wouldn't be complaining about it. Most people got rank of builds like IWAY or VIMWAY just to be able to play in groups in HA. Therefore, rank 3 has pretty much become the noob group, and unranked has become something lower than noob.

I have trouble getting into groups in HA. I don't consider myself noob at PvP, have around 300k bath faction and I have been in numerous GvG guilds. Yet, I still cannot find groups in HA, especially since I have settled a bit in a PvE guild for a bit. There is a problem and people who have rank themselves just won't admit it. I have noticed the popularity of HA dwindle ever since IWAY remained present, that is honestly the reason I stopped doing it, because Anet did not do something about the fame farmers in it. When 6v6 was enabled I tried to get back in and then found a different problem, heroway. Now I agree heroway is a problem but 6v6 is not. If you want 8v8 play GvG, and if you don't have enough for it, it can't hurt to do 6v6.

The Hand Of Death · Nov 16, 2006, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

/signed. I'm also pretty sure that most Spearmen are opposed to the Hero abuse in tombs.

Elitism isn't an issue, lazy players unwilling to put forth an effort is. PvP is a social thing, it requires time and effort building up a circle of friends, or searching for a successful guild. If you can't put forth the effort to find other unranked players, start your own groups, or find a tombs guild, it's really nobody's fault but your own.

I think a lot of the problem comes from pvers comeing into HA, and expecting to find a group in 5 minutes, or expecting any player they blindly invite to accept them. This seems like a hold-over form their time spent pveing, which is fine in itself. However, new players need to realize that pvp requires a tremendous amount of dedication and effort to be successful at. This all comes down to the fact that if you're unwilling to put forth that effort, you're probably not ready for pvp in the first place.

Furthermore, I know for a fact that the "I can't find a group" bit is bullshit, because I see unranked groups forming every single day. So why is it that unranked players can't get into those groups? Is it because they think they belong in rank 9+ groups? That's like expecting a top 20 GvG guild to accept someone who has never pvped before.

There is also the issue of rank being equal to tombs experience (or time spent in tombs, whichever you prefer), and the obvious gap between rank 0 and r9ish. The times I've attempted to take unranked players they more often then not lack the required skills to fill the slot, or have horrible builds and are unreceptive to advice given to them. Furthermore, when I sign on I want to play - and win - not hold someone's hand through learning the ins and out of pvp in tombs. I'm sorry if you find that selfish or elitist, but I play this game for fun, not to teach every unranked player in the game how to play.

Ok like I said in the other post, I am not in a GvG guild, and didn't remain friends with many people in them. Now when they HA they occasionally, and I use that term lightly, invite me along, but normally they will take guildies over me because, well, they are guildies and don't want to feel like they are not allowing a guildy to participate.

I started out PvEing and gradually develeoped PvP skills through starting in RA and then moving on to my guild GvG's. Of course we weren't good because we were all noob at it, but we learned the basics of GvGing. Then I figured out the observe mode exhisted and started watching them, looking at what builds seemed to be popular and getting used to the different ones. I eventually got a job as a cripshot flagrunner in a GvG guild and ran flags for awhile. Eventually I left the guild becaues it was full of idiots, not bad players just bad personalities.

Factions was coming up so I went back to a PvE guild, played through and when I got bored I continued to look for GvG guilds. I found a bunch and got into a rank 111 guild eventually, being let in without rank because a friend of mine explained how I was a good mesmer, and they were lacking good mesmers. Eventually I left that one, forgetting why I left one of their guilds in the first place. They were idiots. During this time I never got much HA done because between GvG I would PvE. Through all that, I still am unable to get in great groups that have potential in HA.

Now finding an unranked group in HA nowadays is completely useless. Most groups get defeated by searing flames hero groups. HA was nice as 6v6 before the heroes came and now it is full of fame farmers again, just like when IWAY was around. Now for HA to be good, the builds should be varied, and if one is overused it should be nerfed. I agree heroes should be taken out because it is PvP not PvE. Take them out of AB also, since AB is also suppose to be a PvP game.

phasola · Nov 16, 2006, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Someone thinks he's better than he really is, i've seen that before....

Carel · Nov 16, 2006, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Hi guys i am new here so please guide me but for the rest i will be nice i thik...

Carel · Nov 16, 2006, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Hi guys i am new here so please guide me but for the rest i will be nice i think...

The Hand Of Death · Nov 16, 2006, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by phasola

Someone thinks he's better than he really is, i've seen that before....

That suppose to be insulting me?

Carel · Nov 16, 2006, 09:24 PM // 21:24

No fighting in this forum

Clinically Proven · Nov 16, 2006, 09:28 PM // 21:28

3 real person minimum - you betcha that's the way to go.

Nurse With Wound · Nov 16, 2006, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Hand Of Death

That suppose to be insulting me?

Stop your ego trips. We're old, experienced pvp'ers, high ranked and from top 100 guilds on the ladder. Your posts arent going to impress anyone. You're just making a fool out of you. xoxo

leeky baby · Nov 16, 2006, 09:47 PM // 21:47

bring back 8 v 8 get heros out!

/signed

phasola · Nov 16, 2006, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

That suppose to be insulting me?

Nope, hope you wake up sooner or later.

DIH49 · Nov 16, 2006, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

This post is probably the best I've ever read on guru. Mind if I quote you everytime someone cries about rank elitism?

Heh, no problem. The only thing I ask in return is that if someone does in fact solve the dilemma that you make sure to tell me.

************************************************** ********

Quote:

Originally Posted by phasola

Why did iA die ?

In short, iA was a tombs guild and they killed tombs. It's more complicated than that of course, but that is the core of the issue.

Quote:

On the elitism issue, the only people complaining are r2 people that want to go into r10 groups. We've all been there, get over it.

No, my opponents are quite right to reject this sort of argument. That one group of people were required to endure some sort of hardship is in no way indicative of that another group ought to. For example, just because my great-grandparents were beaten in schools doesn't imply that I should be. Were they to tell me, "It happened to us, get over it." I would be able to quite rightly dismiss that as a valid argument.

************************************************** ********

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Hand Of Death

One problem is is that some unranked people are not good at all, making it so that unranked people who feel that they are good will not want to get together in groups of unranked people.

That is not a problem for my dilemma. All my dilemma does is show that complaints about elitism are foolish or misguided. You are making a separate claim about a division within the ranks of the unranked (pardon the pun). I have no difficulty in accepting this. Either way it does not impact on my argument.

Quote:

Now lets face it, there will always be noobs in HA, and just because there are unranked people in HA who are not ranked are noob, doesn't mean they all are. It is fairly hard to find unranked groups with people who really know what they are actually doing.

I'm not sure what your objection here is. You are saying that among the unranked there are good players. Granted. You are further saying that these rare people can come to form the rare groups that, "really know what they are actually doing." None of that conflicts with my argument. This would fall under the, "rank is meaningless" fork where the unranked should be able to form groups. Apparently they can according to you, so I fail to see why elitism is an issue. As for the other sorts of players, that falls under the, "rank is meaningful" fork. They are unworthy (or unqualified if you prefer) to have the opportunity to join the better groups.

Quote:

If rank was meaningful I wouldn't be complaining about it. Most people got rank of builds like IWAY or VIMWAY just to be able to play in groups in HA. Therefore, rank 3 has pretty much become the noob group, and unranked has become something lower than noob.

This paragraph is directly contradictory. On one hand you're trying to say that rank is meaningless, but then you turn around and make the claim that the higher ranked groups are better. If the former is true then the latter cannot be true, and if the latter is true the former cannot be. Which is it?

The Hand Of Death · Nov 17, 2006, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

Stop your ego trips. We're old, experienced pvp'ers, high ranked and from top 100 guilds on the ladder. Your posts arent going to impress anyone. You're just making a fool out of you. xoxo

Of course when people are unable to prove their point further, they start to flame the poster. Why do people find flaming as a way of getting a point through? I will never know.

DIH49 for one thing thanks for not resorting to flaming in your arguement.

Now what I was trying to explain was that through the gimic builds that have been used in the past, rank has become meaningless. Yet, the problem is a lot of people don't see that rank is meaningless and are just looking for the fame emote to get into a group. Yeah, rank 0 groups can be quite good, but I really have only been in one of those while the rest have been made of a good group of player with one or two that screw the whole thing up. I admit I am really frustrated in searching for a pug group rank 0 that everyone knows what they are doing. Other than that I don't know what to say, so you probably win. But a lot of good PvP players have stopped playing tombs because of the rank issue.

Nurse With Wound · Nov 17, 2006, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Hand Of Death

Of course when people are unable to prove their point further, they start to flame the poster. Why do people find flaming as a way of getting a point through? I will never know.
.

That wasnt a flame towards you. I just found funny that you proclaimed yourself "good pvp player" with nothing to prove this statement. Oh well, I guess that doesnt really matter.

The issue about rank is old as the rank itself. Rank inst compleatly worthless. It shows to some degree your experience in Heroes Ascend. Not the overall player skill or abilities, but HA experience. Thats it. All good PVP guilds require you to have some proof of your skill before they will accept you in their ranks. Thas obvious, everyones time is precious, and there really isnt enough of it to test every ted the happy whamo, or self proclaimed "exp monk". Rank system is good measure of your experience in HA in general, while champion title shows your experience in GVG. Therefore its noting wrong with those titles. Of course its obvious that friends and people you know are better that ranked pugs, but when those arent aviable at the moment, we always have this system.

In pvp there are two kind of individuals. Those who try and learn, and become good through error and trial, or those who are too lazy to try, and prefer whining on forums instead. Guess what dear Hand of Death. Rank isnt granted. I was also rank zero noob, but not anymore. Now Im in serious PVP guild in a good alliance. I also dont worry abour rank. You want to know my secret? I can share it with you.

Less crying on forums, more pvp playing and making friends. That works for everyone.

B Ephekt · Nov 17, 2006, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Hand Of Death

One problem is is that some unranked people are not good at all, making it so that unranked people who feel that they are good will not want to get together in groups of unranked people. Now lets face it, there will always be noobs in HA, and just because there are unranked people in HA who are not ranked are noob, doesn't mean they all are. It is fairly hard to find unranked groups with people who really know what they are actually doing.

I'm fairly certain many people have suggested starting your own groups, as this gives you control over builds and player quality. Running my own groups was how I managed to get rank 8 before ever joining a tombs guild (while remaining in an all but dead GvG guild).

Quote:

If rank was meaningful I wouldn't be complaining about it. Most people got rank of builds like IWAY or VIMWAY just to be able to play in groups in HA. Therefore, rank 3 has pretty much become the noob group, and unranked has become something lower than noob.

If rank was meaningless you wouldn't complain about it, yet you are.

Also, I think you're exaggerating things a lot when you say most ranked people got their fame from IWAY. Most high ranked players got there from balanced and holding builds. Granted, there was a brief period when IWAY was a new and accepted build, and most old timers did try it at least a few times, but that was pretty short lived.

Quote:

I have trouble getting into groups in HA. I don't consider myself noob at PvP, have around 300k bath faction and I have been in numerous GvG guilds. Yet, I still cannot find groups in HA, especially since I have settled a bit in a PvE guild for a bit.

Well there you go, you're obviously not interested enough to start your own groups or look for a pvp guild. Sorry to say but you don't seem that interested in tombs at all. I'm sure you'd jump at the chance to join r9+ groups, but with hardly any faction at all and little to no tombs experience, why would they take you?

Quote:

Now finding an unranked group in HA nowadays is completely useless. Most groups get defeated by searing flames hero groups. HA was nice as 6v6 before the heroes came and now it is full of fame farmers again, just like when IWAY was around. Now for HA to be good, the builds should be varied, and if one is overused it should be nerfed. I agree heroes should be taken out because it is PvP not PvE. Take them out of AB also, since AB is also suppose to be a PvP game.

Like most unranked players, you're only defeating yourself when you choose to go against the grouping mechanics available to you. I'm sorry but it's really nobody's fault that you choose to no form or seek out unranked groups.

The Hand Of Death · Nov 17, 2006, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

I'm fairly certain many people have suggested starting your own groups, as this gives you control over builds and player quality. Running my own groups was how I managed to get rank 8 before ever joining a tombs guild (while remaining in an all but dead GvG guild).
If rank was meaningless you wouldn't complain about it, yet you are.

Also, I think you're exaggerating things a lot when you say most ranked people got their fame from IWAY. Most high ranked players got there from balanced and holding builds. Granted, there was a brief period when IWAY was a new and accepted build, and most old timers did try it at least a few times, but that was pretty short lived.

Well there you go, you're obviously not interested enough to start your own groups or look for a pvp guild. Sorry to say but you don't seem that interested in tombs at all. I'm sure you'd jump at the chance to join r9+ groups, but with hardly any faction at all and little to no tombs experience, why would they take you?

Like most unranked players, you're only defeating yourself when you choose to go against the grouping mechanics available to you. I'm sorry but it's really nobody's fault that you choose to no form or seek out unranked groups.

In my opinion rank is meaningless, yet in others it isn't which becomes my problem. I have been in many PvP guilds, I know how to find them.

I agree with the fact that a lot of high ranked players did deserve to get their rank, however the lower ranked 3's and some 6's did not. It isn't crying on forums. It is just that you guys don't see it as a problem because you are not in the persons shoes.

And if I am not interested then I wouldn't be agruing for it would I?

B Ephekt · Nov 17, 2006, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Well, the thing is, when you come on the forums and complain about elitism, then all but say that you're better than the unranked groups forming, you don't really accomplish anything but making you're self look hypocritical.

So here's the thing (and I know I've already said this, but...) pvp is a social thing. Standing around HA spamming LFG and QQing isn't going to help you accomplish anything, so take some initiative.

You say you already have a headstart on the other unranked people, which is good, because it should give you the ability to form sucessful groups. So, start forming your own groups, help people who are close to your level get on the same page as you, and add the good players to your friends list. Find out what people are good at and let them play those roles. Pretty soon you will have a list of good players who are willing to come play for you, and probably have friends of friends interested as well. Now, play with these people as often as possible, only taking PUGs when you have to fill a slot, and you should all be ranked pretty soon.

This works, I know because I've been playing with some of the same people since we were rank 0 and 3.