Curse

Goonter · Nov 20, 2006, 10:31 PM // 22:31

We can’t make babies online. The last utility to compete and cooperate for in a virtual community is virtual money. You got to come up with something way outside the box to get a multiplayer computer “rpg” community to establish value not measured in “gil”.

I’m assuming that guildwars was not designed to have a competitive market, mostly because to compete in it one most spend their time doing so instead of spending time competing in player vs. player activities - the games ultimate purpose. If it were beneficial to win in pvp by playing the market it would be called grinding the way guildwars is set up. (One notable exception in mmorpgs is Eve online where the ultimate intention is to compete using the market)
I’m not sure if the evolution of this game is following the developer’s visions or community activities....maybe it’s an even mix of the two. But from what I assume was the original game design for “no competitive market” got put into perspective around the time sigils and ecto became a currency early in the game.
And so, because players will devise some sort of market value amongst themselves in any online rpg, Anet is making ways to keep virtual value valuable to its players while balancing it against the grind necessary to obtain these things for pvp purposes.

Another idea, if you want to end the press and win ebay problem you could simple remove all player-to-player trade features. Replace it with the often request trade and auction system. If put in right this could also reduce trade scams close to zero.
As for storage issues, I agree with you. Equipping your character’s items has become of as equal of importance as equipping your skillbar. If you're gonna make the investment to have a pve/pvp character your gonna need the inventory to hold all that gear.
I personally don’t have inventory problems, I got mule slots. Logging in and out for gear is annoying though.

On a side note, I like player to player interaction, but not through trade. I’ll go ahead and say that I don’t feel the trade spam in guildwars pulls players together, excluding the few serious market players that can brag to each other over their profits and earnings.
Guildwars economy is very lackluster and maybe even anti productive to this cause. (If you’ve ever turn off chat to avoid trade spam...)
Increasing player to player interaction is a whole different monster to tackle though.

Nexus Icon · Nov 20, 2006, 11:50 PM // 23:50

A lot of people are posting post without really understanding what I'm saying.
I am NOT saying that goals should be removed, I am merely suggesting alternative methods of achieving those goals.
I am NOT saying that everything should be unlocked for everyone; I am saying that by improving quest rewards, one could achieve unlocks through adventuring and then have the flexibility to use those unlocks whenever they like.
Whether those unlocks be skins, weapon mods, runes, inscriptions, it's all the same. Quests should be designed with each of these things as a reward.
For more desirable things, quests should be given by hard-to-reach NPCs and consist of a good challenge.

As for you guys who enjoy playing the market, more power to ya. Personally I'd rather be playing the game as opposed to playing the market, but whatever floats your boat.

Antheus · Nov 20, 2006, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Removing the economy: Design document

1) No form of currency may exist anymore

- Gold is removed
- Materials are removed

Resource traders and merchants become obsolete, and are removed.

2) Linked systems are adjusted

- Dye is removed in present form, since there's no purpose for it to exist. Add armor customization to character screen
- Runes and rune traders are removed. There is no more need for them to be represented with physical objects. Add rune bonuses to character selection screen
- Armor traders can no longer function, since resources and money has been removed. Since armor can no longer be crafted, it's provided through character selection screen.

3) Additional side-effects.

- Since everyone gets all skills, there's no point for skill points or xp anymore.
- Make everyone level 20, since levels are also unbalancing

To sum up:

You want to give PvP characters access to PvE. In addition, you want each character to have all unlocks.

I won't even condone that, but if I had to guess, I'd say the first thing you look for in game is god mode. Then you play through the game in 2-3 hours on easy/hard mode unable to lose, and get satisfaction from beating the game.

What you fail to understand though, is why everyone else plays the game. There's nothing left to be said here.

Antheus · Nov 21, 2006, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

Whether those unlocks be skins, weapon mods, runes, inscriptions, it's all the same. Quests should be designed with each of these things as a reward.
For more desirable things, quests should be given by hard-to-reach NPCs and consist of a good challenge.

But without economy, every single skill and every single object is worthless.

Economy (supply/demand) determines what is valuable and what isn't.

Why are some objects so expensive? They are rare drop. Nothing is worth a lot since it's hard to reach.

You propose removing economy, but you want rare/expensive items? This is paradox. You cannot have one without another.

Value of an item is defined with it's desirability vs. supply ratio. In your scenario, you have items, which are extremly hard to reach. So what? Once someone obtains it, they cannot trade it, they cannot give it to someone, they can show it.

What you are proposing, is creating a single player game. Each of those games exists in separate world, but none can influence another. So what, if I have Sword Of Thousand Truths. You can get it if you beat the game as well.

Then what. You have your Sword Of Thousand Truths. Do you think anyone will care? It's like posting a screenshot of you beating some game. Will anyone care?

Achievements are praised. In this system, there is no more achievement. Beating a mission is not an achievement no matter how hard, since it's inevitable. If you whack on it for long enough time, you'll get it. And then, the reward is the same for all.

Not A Fifty Five · Nov 21, 2006, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Sorry but I entirely disagree with what the above post says (Edit: someone posted befire me, I meant the one above the one above). You're basically saying everyone plays the game to solo farm? We're talking about shifting the focus of goals i.e. quests/missions not solo farms.

Personally I see this as the best solution:

Make quests and missions have OBSCENELY more gold value than drops. I mentioned this somewhere else. But if every major quest gave 4-10k gold along with 4-10k experience, would anyone solo farm? no. Is this more realistic? yes (Woot that gargoyle with no pockets just droped 100gold pieces!!!). Would this switch the focus of play? yes. Would this Upend the market? no. It would create a mild increase in the gold which would naturally fluctuate prices.

Antheus · Nov 21, 2006, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not A Fifty Five

Sorry but I entirely disagree with what the above post says (Edit: someone posted befire me, I meant the one above the one above). You're basically saying everyone plays the game to solo farm? We're talking about shifting the focus of goals i.e. quests/missions not solo farms.

Personally I see this as the best solution:

Make quests and missions have OBSCENELY more gold value than drops. I mentioned this somewhere else. But if every major quest gave 4-10k gold along with 4-10k experience, would anyone solo farm? no. Is this more realistic? yes (Woot that gargoyle with no pockets just droped 100gold pieces!!!). Would this switch the focus of play? yes. Would this Upend the market? no. It would create a mild increase in the gold which would naturally fluctuate prices.

I never mentioned solo farming. I mentioned progression.

Loot (is valued in gold) is obtained from mobs. As you play, you obtain more of it. This, in turn, is used to upgrade your equipment and progress your character. It's of course possible to bypass the system and solo farm, thereby progressing faster.

In case anyone wants to see how this turns out, there's a game that did this. It's called New Game Enhancements to Star Wars Galaxies: An Empire Divided.

All loot is worthless. All weapons and armor are given to you as you level up. Some "rare" weapons are obtained as you complete certain end-game quests.

All lootable objects that were valuable were removed, or changed into decorative objects with no function.

Crafting is still in game, but it serves no purpose. Tens of thousands of items are still in game, but also serve no purpose.

At level 90, there is nothing left to do. You can, if you wish, collect items. These serve no function, and can be displayed in your house.

In order to complete the storyline, you do not need to perform a single purchase, or single trade. All weapons, as obtained through progression, are exactly the same across all characters.

The only objects that have incredible value, are the "pre-nerf" objects, the ones from before the change. Mostly, because they are no longer obtainable.

In under a year after these changes were made, subscriptions dropped to 20-30% of what they were before this happened.

MithranArkanere · Nov 21, 2006, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Not obscenely, but a 500%-1000% increase will do.

Someting like...
Instead of 100 gold, 1000.
Instead of 200 gold... 1750
Instead of 500, 2500.
Instead of 1000, 5000..

And so on.

There are a couple of self exclusive quests in Istan, if you do one, earn 500 exp and 200 gold.
If you do the other, ou earn 2500exp, 15 sunspear points and 25 gold.
Everybody will chose the sunspear points, for they will alway prefer 25 sunspear points than 175 gold... so...

What about between 1750 and 250 gold?
A-haha...! with this situation they'll doubt!

Yup. a Sighlty increase in gold rewards will do, for now.

S h e r r y · Nov 21, 2006, 12:43 AM // 00:43

killing the econamy would kill off 1/2 of guildwars players.

1) "bling armor" as you call it, is a status symbol, make it a quest reward and anyone can get it

2) the fire imp dies... BLACK DYE! Sweet! I can get that armor now! <-- that kind of happiness would not happen

3)while we are at it, lets make it so you can not interact with others at all! this is gona be FUN!! (not

)

you may want to kill the econamy, but 99% of all guild wars players dont. if you want to have no econamy, go to some 3 square mile communist country in southwestern europe, or hell

Sli Ander · Nov 21, 2006, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Not obscenely, but a 500%-1000% increase will do.

Someting like...
Instead of 100 gold, 1000.
Instead of 200 gold... 1750
Instead of 500, 2500.
Instead of 1000, 5000..

And so on.

There are a couple of self exclusive quests in Istan, if you do one, earn 500 exp and 200 gold.
If you do the other, ou earn 2500exp, 15 sunspear points and 25 gold.
Everybody will chose the sunspear points, for they will alway prefer 25 sunspear points than 175 gold... so...

What about between 1750 and 250 gold?
A-haha...! with this situation they'll doubt!

Yup. a Sighlty increase in gold rewards will do, for now.

If you increase the amount of gold given by quests, or simply make it more easily obtainable, gold will lose its value. You got 1000 gold instead of 100? That item you want just went form costing 100 plat to 1000.

If you've ever read A Connecticut(sp?) Yankee in King Arthurs Court, you know what I'm talking about. One guy made more money, but paid more for his food. The other guy made less money, but paid less for his food. Yet the guy who made more money, and paid more, considered himself wealthier despite the fact that he was making about the same, if not less money than the other.

But that's just my two cents(and Mark Twains, too, I guess)

actionjack · Nov 21, 2006, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

We can’t make babies online. The last utility to compete and cooperate for in a virtual community is virtual money. You got to come up with something way outside the box to get a multiplayer computer “rpg” community to establish value not measured in “gil”.

I’m assuming that guildwars was not designed to have a competitive market, mostly because to compete in it one most spend their time doing so instead of spending time competing in player vs. player activities - the games ultimate purpose. If it were beneficial to win in pvp by playing the market it would be called grinding the way guildwars is set up. (One notable exception in mmorpgs is Eve online where the ultimate intention is to compete using the market)
I’m not sure if the evolution of this game is following the developer’s visions or community activities....maybe it’s an even mix of the two. But from what I assume was the original game design for “no competitive market” got put into perspective around the time sigils and ecto became a currency early in the game.
And so, because players will devise some sort of market value amongst themselves in any online rpg, Anet is making ways to keep virtual value valuable to its players while balancing it against the grind necessary to obtain these things for pvp purposes.

Another idea, if you want to end the press and win ebay problem you could simple remove all player-to-player trade features. Replace it with the often request trade and auction system. If put in right this could also reduce trade scams close to zero.
As for storage issues, I agree with you. Equipping your character’s items has become of as equal of importance as equipping your skillbar. If you're gonna make the investment to have a pve/pvp character your gonna need the inventory to hold all that gear.
I personally don’t have inventory problems, I got mule slots. Logging in and out for gear is annoying though.

On a side note, I like player to player interaction, but not through trade. I’ll go ahead and say that I don’t feel the trade spam in guildwars pulls players together, excluding the few serious market players that can brag to each other over their profits and earnings.
Guildwars economy is very lackluster and maybe even anti productive to this cause. (If you’ve ever turn off chat to avoid trade spam...)
Increasing player to player interaction is a whole different monster to tackle though.

I like your world view, Goonter.

-----------------------------------------

In-game gold is a great tool to use in making people want to play the game, as it make them feel that they "earn" something for their work. It is preying on one of human's basic emotions, that which is the joyous feeling when you get as you "earn" and develop and grow stuff.... which in this case, the stuff is your vitural bank account.

The gold can not be taken away, but could be de-value and de-emphises in several way.

The question is what do you fill that void with? Especially to the end-game PvE? Recall the time you play the game for the story, progressing between mission to mission. For that time, the gold is plentful, and enough for most use, and you never mind too much about it... because your goal is to get through the story, and not earn gold.

However, once people reach end game, with no further set goal to do, they start setting goal for them self, which many choose farming and earn more gold than needed as goal.

If there is a continues goal (that is none-gold related) given to players (which are fun to do), than it will surely de-emphises the gold drive. PvP work, but not all PvEers would want to change to that. Would be interesting to see what other idea could be use to fill in that void.

DIH49 · Nov 21, 2006, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

A lot of people are posting post without really understanding what I'm saying.
I am NOT saying that goals should be removed, I am merely suggesting alternative methods of achieving those goals.

The problem you have here is you're just suggesting a synonymous system. Ok, instead of being rare drop-wise things become rare because they're hard to quest to. That alone will create an economy (see books or amulets. Everyone can get them and people still buy them) as some people get them before others.

Quote:

Whether those unlocks be skins, weapon mods, runes, inscriptions, it's all the same. Quests should be designed with each of these things as a reward.
For more desirable things, quests should be given by hard-to-reach NPCs and consist of a good challenge.

Then you've got the rarity problem again. If you make the rewards rare you have a functionally identical system to what we have already. Any changes would be trivial and a waste of time. If you make the rewards easily accessible then they lose all value and no one bothers for them. Customers leave due to lack of goals and Anet loses money. I really think there isn't any way for you to solve the rarity problem that doesn't rely on you mirroring the system we aleady have. I think it basically defeats your argument and I don't think you have a response to it. I certainly can't think of one.

Not A Fifty Five · Nov 21, 2006, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sli Ander

If you increase the amount of gold given by quests, or simply make it more easily obtainable, gold will lose its value. You got 1000 gold instead of 100? That item you want just went form costing 100 plat to 1000.

If you've ever read A Connecticut(sp?) Yankee in King Arthurs Court, you know what I'm talking about. One guy made more money, but paid more for his food. The other guy made less money, but paid less for his food. Yet the guy who made more money, and paid more, considered himself wealthier despite the fact that he was making about the same, if not less money than the other.

But that's just my two cents(and Mark Twains, too, I guess)

While the anecdote makes a valid point the analogy is not the same as being presented by us and so is different. If all sources of "income" were multiplied by ten, yes there would be no change. However, if one source of "income" was increased while another remained the same, the income that was raised would be preferable.

In other words, if quests gave more more money, and drops remained the same, quests would be preferable to solo farming.

Antheus · Nov 21, 2006, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not A Fifty Five

In other words, if quests gave more more money, and drops remained the same, quests would be preferable to solo farming.

Once again, you didn't solve anything.

Let's say each quest gives 10k.

You introduce more money into economy.

How does economy compensate? The rare axe, that was 100k + 50e, now suddenly costs 100k + 500e.

Not only that. Since farming is no longer viable for cash, it becomes incredibly important for making money. Ironic? Nope.

Let's say you make a total of 500k by questing. Then there's no more quests.

But let's say you find a nice loot. An axe worth 100k + 500e. You wouldn't need to do another quest in your entire playtime.

So you have two options. Slowly do boring quests or boringly farm for a chance of rare drop. Chest running also becomes the norm. And since rewards are increased, Id and salvage kits, materials, resources, and all that must be increased in price as well.

All these: Let's fix the economy theories only address one single point - usually personal pet-peeve. The beauty of economic system is, that they balance themselves out. Most often, not for that particular individual.

Antheus · Nov 21, 2006, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionjack

If there is a continues goal (that is none-gold related) given to players (which are fun to do), than it will surely de-emphises the gold drive. PvP work, but not all PvEers would want to change to that. Would be interesting to see what other idea could be use to fill in that void.

For most, collecting gold and buying rarer and more expensive items is the most pleasurable goal.

What better way to say: Look at me, than by expensive armor, unique weapon, or snazzy title?

Gold, like money in real life, is an abstraction of an achievement. The green paper you pass around isn't worth burning to keep yourself warm. Yet a stack of $100 bills says something.

Titles? Sure. once again, you'd be left behind by power-levelers.

Missions? I'm sure you'd be happy to see players who finish entire content in under 24 hours.

Quests? Yep. People run every single one.

What is the common line here?

Competition.

This is why people play online games. Gold is one way of saying I'm better than you. Pvp score is another. Titles yet third. Items, dyes, ....

All online games are about "I'm better than you". Not only that, GW is CORPG. C stands for competitive.

There are games that offer much better story-driven experience. GW story is, afterall, rather bleak, unrewarding, and unimersive.

If you feel money is redundant, why care about it? If money and items are so worthless, why want that 100k +50e sword, when a quest reward is exactly the same stats, just different skin. Why want 15k armor, when the 1k armor is exactly as good.

Competition. All these items are just a way of saying: "I'm better than you." And all proposals to adjust the economy are merely a way of changing how this is achieved.

Some say they don't care about the others, or aren't competitive. But they still enjoy if a random person asks them about an item, advice on a quest, or help with a task. That too, falls under competition. Being more knowledgable than the others, being friendlier, ...

Servant of Kali · Nov 21, 2006, 02:17 AM // 02:17

/signed

I know it's not going to happen, but i already suggested similiar ideas.

lord_shar · Nov 21, 2006, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

A lot of people are posting post without really understanding what I'm saying.
I am NOT saying that goals should be removed, I am merely suggesting alternative methods of achieving those goals.
I am NOT saying that everything should be unlocked for everyone; I am saying that by improving quest rewards, one could achieve unlocks through adventuring and then have the flexibility to use those unlocks whenever they like.
Whether those unlocks be skins, weapon mods, runes, inscriptions, it's all the same. Quests should be designed with each of these things as a reward.
For more desirable things, quests should be given by hard-to-reach NPCs and consist of a good challenge.

As for you guys who enjoy playing the market, more power to ya. Personally I'd rather be playing the game as opposed to playing the market, but whatever floats your boat.

I hate to say this, but I think you're missing this important counter-point:

Everyone can already get max armor and weapons with little trivial effort. So why does a very large segment of the GW players sink many countless hours into questing and farming to obtain fancier looking versions of the same stat armor and weapons with fancier eye-candy?

Nothing dearly treasured is ever easily obtained. Remove the effort involved in getting any item or title, and that item/title loses its inherent worth. By making everything questable, the effort required to obtain the sough-after item goes away, and so does that item's value.

15>50 crystallines for 1g anyone? It'll take only 1 hour to quest for!

Not A Fifty Five · Nov 21, 2006, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Once again, you didn't solve anything.

Let's say each quest gives 10k.

You introduce more money into economy.

How does economy compensate? The rare axe, that was 100k + 50e, now suddenly costs 100k + 500e.

Not only that. Since farming is no longer viable for cash, it becomes incredibly important for making money. Ironic? Nope.

Let's say you make a total of 500k by questing. Then there's no more quests.

But let's say you find a nice loot. An axe worth 100k + 500e. You wouldn't need to do another quest in your entire playtime.

So you have two options. Slowly do boring quests or boringly farm for a chance of rare drop. Chest running also becomes the norm. And since rewards are increased, Id and salvage kits, materials, resources, and all that must be increased in price as well.

All these: Let's fix the economy theories only address one single point - usually personal pet-peeve. The beauty of economic system is, that they balance themselves out. Most often, not for that particular individual.

Uh. No.

Tide to Go · Nov 21, 2006, 02:23 AM // 02:23

sounds alright but i think it would take the fun out of getting armor and weapons

if they made quest for armors and weapons they would be forced to put the quest on Difficulty witch i know no one likes i havent even ben able to complete one of them

DIH49 · Nov 21, 2006, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not A Fifty Five

In other words, if quests gave more more money, and drops remained the same, quests would be preferable to solo farming.

All that does is change the emphasis on HOW to make money, it doesn't change anything about the nature of economies. Ok, now to make gold you do quests instead of farm (you wouldn't of course, but that's a separate issue) but so what? How has that changed anything, made anything better? There's very very little difference between farming and questing. A GW quest is basically, "Go to place A and kill creature(s) X." That's exactly what farming is. The only difference is that for a quest some NPC gives you a thumbs up at the end. Making quests give more gold wouldn't change a thing, relatively speaking. Oh, an item would cost 60k instead of 50k, but that's about it- a cosmetic change.

It all comes back to the rarity problem. People want to show off, and the only way to do that is if they have something other people don't. Hence, rarity. Making quests give people money is pretty much exactly the same thing that we have now. It's a trivial distinction so why waste the time?

Chris616263 · Nov 21, 2006, 02:29 AM // 02:29

I like this idea as much as I'm sure very few people do. To be honest, I haven't read anything but the original post and the last one on the first page so don't expect me to consider anybody else's view.

I agree that quest rewards have gotten worse. 200 gold? For some of the final quests in Nightfall? That's pathetic. I make 200 gold after killing 2 hydras alone with my warrior. In fact, since my Warrior is already level 20, I did nothing but primary quests because 200 gold, and some crappy trade items aren't worth the 30 minutes beating into level 28 enemies. It's faster to just kill Hydras in the desert solo for cash.

Heaping amounts of EXP should reward somehow... if not a stupid title which people lord over, then maybe some shiny armor, at every 1 (or 2) million EXP?

"Prestige" armor, in itself, is a joke. The only armor I think isn't a joke is 15k faction (by faction I mean kurzick or luxon) and primeval armor. Those are the armor sets you actually have to put some sort of effort forth to acquire. It doesn't require any effort to buy 2 million gold on eBay and then pay a group of people heaps of gold to run you all over Tyria and help you get your ever-so-ugly FoW armor.