Curse

Tiny Killer · Nov 21, 2006, 02:42 AM // 02:42

I have two Tyrian characters that I have completed Nightfall with and am currently underway with my third. With none of them did I find it to be that much work to level up the heroes. I would simply add them to the party and their level would increase. Every now and then I would see that I had not allocated their new attribute points and would then take care of that. Before I knew it, they were all at 20.

As far as build management for heroes is concerned, I find that to be no work at all. The new template feature is a wonderful thing. Some heroes use my builds, some use builds I have made for them. One way or another, it is all quite simplified with templates.

Equipment I can see as a little bit of a problem for some, but not insurmountable. I am a pack rat, so my heroes all started out with some pretty good items. For those that do not have a large amount of weapons sitting in storage collecting dust, I should think that after the first couple of walk throughs in an area you should have enough drops to have your heroes fairly well set up.

MithranArkanere · Nov 21, 2006, 12:48 PM // 12:48

The mains reason to have individual heroes is this:

You have an elementalists, most of the time, you use Axe Koss, Healing Tahlkora and MM Olias.

You also have a warrior, mainly axe. When you use two warrior heroes, you make them use sword and hammer.

You also have a monk, mainly healing. When you use two monk heroes, you make them use Protection and Smitting.

You also have a necromancer, mainly MM. When you use two necromancer heroes, you make them use curses and blood.

Now... are you going to store all those different weapon and armor sets for all of your characters in one single hero?

The current system is better. Each characters need different supporting heroes.

I still say: Unlocking them with your same level would be enough.

Gorebrex · Nov 21, 2006, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by TadaceAce

So let me get this straight, you're for people having to lvl new heroes for every character, but you're anti grind?

Hows that grind? Hell, why bother leveling heros at all? Why not have it so that when you start a NF character, youre given level 20 heros who already have all skills?
/wonders why some people say GWs become "too easy"...

Antheus · Nov 21, 2006, 02:12 PM // 14:12

One reason for getting non-maxed heroes is also storyline.

Let's say that the time when Tyrian/Canthan characters arrive into Elone is day 0.

1 year before then, the Searing occured. Then that character trained, travelled through the Shiverpeaks and established Lion's Arch.
During same year, Canthan character visited the temple, and helped clear the plague, and traveled to Kaineng.
Both of these now arrive into Kamadahn.

At the same time, a new Elonian recruit joins Sunspears (new Elonian character).

They all meet in same place and at same point in story. They all meet the very same heros in very same place. Jin, for example.

So it's not really the issue of getting heros that are too low for you, it's more that foreign characters are too high for that moment in storyline.

Timeline for this is something like that:

Tyria ----------+--------------- Ring of Fire
Cantha --------+--------------- Defeated Shiro
Elona ---------+--------------- Abaddon

With + marking the point in storyline where all 3 chapters intersect.

This may seem like role-playing nonsense to some, but GW did always put a lot of emphasys on consistency of canon.

And since you meet heroes at '+', it doesn't matter where you come from or what level you are. They exist regardless of other events. Even though you are at a certain level, they are the same characters, from the same part of storyline.

sn0w1337 · Nov 21, 2006, 03:08 PM // 15:08

-If you unlock the heros you should be able to use them on any char.
-Paying runes and weapons for every hero gets aggravating.
-Your hero should keep the weapons and runes you assign them for every char you have.
-Honestly, which one of you havent been a lvl 1 with a maxed out green weapon?
-The hero should never surpass your existing level on your char. In this case, creating a new char, it would be a lvl 1 dunkoro with his runes and a yakslapper for example. To prevent death, heros should not be able to wear superior runes (just like henchmen dont).

=HT=Ingram · Nov 21, 2006, 03:59 PM // 15:59

I personally feel if heroes become account based it would become Way way too easy... Its already made the other chapters so easy its almost a joke now. I can do titan quests with heroes like they are nothing... If all the sudden I made a character and went out and had all my lev 20 heroes ready to use, I would FLY through the game on other characters.

I mean really... I would be like lev 3 and heroes of lev 20 with uber end game armor and green weapons. Common. that's way too easy, All I would have to do is hang out while the heroes did everything for me like a lousy runner customer or account buyer... Naw. leave it the way it is... The only other fair thing to do would be to eliminate them from the game, but that is not going to happen unfortunately...

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea, its just by allowing heroes into the fold its almost entirely became a single player game instead of a more MMO style. and thats a shame...

Gregslot · Nov 21, 2006, 07:40 PM // 19:40

actually the storyline doesnt go like this
when u are at cantha cynn makes references to the ring of fire, she says something like "this reminds me fo that time on the ring of fire", not excatly like that, but the this is the idea...meaning that they were at the ring of fire before chapter 2.
All three chaper cant be happening at the same time because Mehnlo, Devona, Cynn, Aidan and Eve are the main characters of all stories, and you are the 6th.

BACK TO THE HERO ISSUE.

Im pretty sure the designers will think on something...
Like giveing you the option to choose between your heroes equipment. Exemple: you have 2 characters, and both have koss (one with a hammer, and another with an axe), you will choose wich Koss is going to be YOUR koss, the other one will have his itens removed and bla bla bla (or you remove them by yourself). Of course, with pvp characters, u wont be able to choose, or else everyone would make awsome equipments and use them, they will just have to create their heores for these pvp characters.

Its just like the insignea and inscription thing, they HAVE to do something about it. I dont feel motivated at all on getting new itens, or buying new armors. I like my armors, i have a 15k dragon wth an ascalon healm, the problem is that i dont use the heal too much because it has +1 tatics and i cant change to sword, hammer, or axe... AND WHY THE F* IT DOESNT HAVE +1 ENERGY LIKE THE REST OF THE HELMS?
So, basically these are somethings they HAVE to change... most of the ppl just dont like it, or would be much happier with these changes

Imagine how would you feel if you could get that Eternal Shield and give it +30hp and -5 dmg (20% chance) ?

Savio · Nov 21, 2006, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregslot

AND WHY THE F* IT DOESNT HAVE +1 ENERGY LIKE THE REST OF THE HELMS?

Because if you actually paid attention to the stats of the +1 attribute helms, they didn't have anything equivalent to an insignia (Knight's helm has Knight's insignia, +1 Tactics; Dreadnaught's helm has Dreadnaught's insignia, +1 Strength) so all of the +1 attribute helms were given stats equivalent to Radiant insignias, which means +1 energy.

Quote:

Imagine how would you feel if you could get that Eternal Shield and give it +30hp and -5 dmg (20% chance) ?

Vanity isn't a good reason as to why anything should be changed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by =HT=Ingram

Its already made the other chapters so easy its almost a joke now.

The hardest part about the other chapters was finding a group of people that didn't ragequit, ping repeatedly, draw penises on the minimap, and use builds that are craptacular. Prophecies and Factions were only hard when you didn't have a group of friends online and henchies were ill-suited for the area (of which there were few areas).

Quote:

Originally Posted by sn0w1337

-Paying runes and weapons for every hero gets aggravating.

Heroes don't need to be 100% perfect to perform their jobs. Even without full runes, fully upgraded equipment, or even level 20, they'll get you through most missions and quests.

I Brother Bloood I · Nov 21, 2006, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiny Killer

Every now and then I would see that I had not allocated their new attribute points and would then take care of that. Before I knew it, they were all at 20.

Exactly how i went. I wouldnt even care about levels i mean really who does care? The part i hate is the armor and weapons. Only thing that bothers me.

MithranArkanere · Nov 22, 2006, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Well... see all those trophies that fall from enemies and you leave on the gound or sell?

Well. Now mission maps have new icons that show were collectors are. Those new icons are not there for nothing, they are there to make it easier to find collector and know what will the require before aproaching them.

Want a req9 +30hp -5dmg(%20) for Koss?
In Cantha:
- 1 Amulet of the Mists
- 5 Naga skins.
In Nightfall:
- 5 Sandblasted Lodestones

You can't throw away all those trophies and then complain about items.

Esprit · Nov 22, 2006, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Rather than make them account based, allow the Hero's be the equivalent level of your character that you bring from a previous chapter.

African War Lord · Nov 24, 2006, 05:29 PM // 17:29

I agree with hero's being account based. Mainly because nightfall really sucks the second time through. I don't know how you guys bring yourself to play this game over and over.

I was thinkin of bringing my ranger through but after finishing consulate docks mission I was just like... yea screw that I'm not doin all this shit again. Nightfall killed all my characters basically. It was fun while it lasted but they sure weren't going for replayability with this chapter.

Abnaxus · Nov 24, 2006, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Heroes don't need to be 100% perfect to perform their jobs. Even without full runes, fully upgraded equipment, or even level 20, they'll get you through most missions and quests.

I agree about this, I cleared the game equipping my heroes with unused green or purple weapons sitting in my storage, free collectors for others, no runes or inscriptions at all.

Nevertheless, I see a big incoherence in the hero system.

As far as skills are regarded, they are like PvP chars, so once you have unlocked whatever skill on your account, you can use on your hero, lvl 1 Koss can use Eviscerate or Hundred Blades, lvl 1 Dunkoro can use WoH and so on.

But when it comes to runes and other stuff, you can't use a rune you have unlocked on your account, but you have to actually purchase it at trader.

In my opinion, the sudden spike of most runes after Nightfall (superior DM at 7k, major vigor 6k and so on) is not due to the massive influx of new players.
Let's face reality, a new player can hardly get the gold to buy a max AL armor, he can't immediately be aware of the necessity to buy a superior DM or fire for those prices, and will stick to a minor or major for a while.
Old players have already bought their ones, and just a little minority feels the urge to buy a new facial scar for another armor set.

So the spike comes from players of previous chapters, who now want to put a superior DM or major vigor on all their Olias and Dunkoros and whatever. Thus the request of runes has been multiplied for 3-4 or more, depending on how many chars are in the account.

If heroes are PvP-like chars for skills, they should be PvP-like also in other basic equipment like runes and also weapons, so everything you have unlocked on your account should be usable on them.

I repeat, this is not necessary at all to use heroes effectively, but would be a more coherent game design, and would also reduce the negative effects on the economy, which are negative especially on new players.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Nov 24, 2006, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Or...

At least have the Hero gear (weapons and used runes, etc) account based.

It would work like customizing, neither you or anyone else would be able to use the gear once it was officially "given" to a hero. This could be done either via a command (/bind weapon /bind offhand...etc.) or an NPC like we do for our armor.

Then every same Hero type on that account would have access to that gear.

OK, now shoot this full of holes.

MithranArkanere · Nov 25, 2006, 02:19 AM // 02:19

I don't like that.

With my Ele My N heroes are MM and Blood.

With my Necro they are Blood and curses.

The current system lets you choose better.

Antheus · Nov 25, 2006, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

If heroes are PvP-like chars for skills, they should be PvP-like also in other basic equipment like runes and also weapons, so everything you have unlocked on your account should be usable on them.

Nobody would bother unlocking every single skill at least twice for each hero on each character. And given you get multiples, you'd have to buy every single skill at least twice.

Heroes are money-sink. Since skills in PvE require xp and money, they can't apply to heroes. Power-leveling them?

And adding free runes to them removes the equipment process. The current system is a good balance between customizability and flexibility. Rune prices did spike, and they'll stay up there for a while. This, in itself, isn't such a bad thing. It forced many to consider major runes, and with insignias, the market did liven up a bit.

Heroes are decoration, and should be treated as such. They come in handy, but don't even remotely need to be perfectly equipped.

They also allowed veterans to offload much of their inventory on them, putting those unsellable greens and golds to good use. And with time, everyone will get their heroes better equipped and closer to that perfect build.

An important thing here is also, that runes can always be removed from heroes and swapped with no penalty. Unlike players, which risk losing armor on each such attempt.

Current hero system is a very decent compromise, which is mostly distorted due to novelty. Game hasn't been out even a month.

death fuzzy · Nov 25, 2006, 06:59 AM // 06:59

No, a better alternative:

- make heroes level up whenever you level up..not at their own rate

- make a hero inventory in a storage tab. you put the weapon in the storage, and heroes have a menu where they can use any of the weapons in there. When the hero equips it, it will remain in that tab so that when using another character's heroes, you wont have to constantly move the item through the storage, etc.

Made In Ascalon · Nov 25, 2006, 08:28 AM // 08:28

That's about the same logic as saying "If we unlocked these skills on one pve character, they should be unlocked for use on every pve character."

Sir Mad · Nov 25, 2006, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

Or...

At least have the Hero gear (weapons and used runes, etc) account based.

I partially agree, yes.

The main problem is not for PvE in my mind. The fact I can't buy a sup vigor rune for the 12 heroes of all my 11 chars is not that a handicap in PvE. However, so far everybody was able to PvP with PvE chars, with simillar stats (green weapons contributed to that). Now, a PvE char can't play in Heroes Battles for example, nor go heroway in other PvP areas (I'm not saying I wanna go heroway, but many enjoy that). And many of us don't have a PvP slot, nor want to have one. So far I didn't need one - now I do.

Several good reasons not to make heroes account-wide have been posted here. But why not to make them partially account-wide? Heroes = 4 things:

- Skills: already account-wide.
- Level: leveling his heroes for a PvE char is not a big deal, especially since they get XP for quests - I can see no reason to change that.
- Equipement: For mages, collector equip is fair enough. And you can buy green wand/staffs for a couple of plats. It's more expensive for fighters, so I don't know, but I think even cheap greens could do the job.
- Armor and runes: AL is automatically upgraded so it's ok. But for runes, it's impossible to have the best runes for all his heores (in my case 132 sup vigor, 500 or 600 radient insignias, etc). So why not make that account-based?

phoenixtech · Nov 25, 2006, 02:12 PM // 14:12

/Notsigned

1) Heros already get 5x XP gain if they are lower level than you are, so it's not really that hard to level all of them up.

2) Henchmen don't get ANY items/runes/equipment, Heros are already an upgrade over this, I have no quelms with paying extra money to equip each and one of them with runes. Since most of us have ALREADY paided our $$$ to equip them are you going to refund me the $$$ that I already paid for my runes?

3) Heros serve as EXTRA storage space, since I can put my customized weapons on them and free up space. EXTRA SPACE = GOOD. Account based would limit my extra space and what are they going to do, delete my existing items already on my heros?

NEVER going to happen. Let's face it, most people are complaining due to the cost of runes + insignia on the armor, you are better off asking for an "unlocked" system for they might improve the entire hero rune/insignia system instead of asking for account based hero.