Curse

Kai Nui · Nov 28, 2006, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Lol.

This is pretty ridiculous, it's not like a big deal. If you're getting hurt by the skill, simply walk away from the spirit, the spirit range is huge. If they've pressured your team into a tight area with your spirit, then tough luck, cause you're probably going to die anyway. In fact, if you're pressured to be near the spirit not only can you be nuked out easily, but I'd think that's a pretty effective ritualist spirit counter. Even then, if they're using it on you constantly, if you walk far enough away it won't hit a spirit and will take 30 seconds to recharge. Not really seeing how this skill is so great. Not to mention you do have an energy limit anyhow.

Rera · Nov 28, 2006, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by baddog992

how about energy surge? does 90 hp with 18dom magic and has a 2 second cast and hit all enemys in range, easly spamable because of the 20 seconds clock time, spirt has 30 seconds cast time. I do realize it doesnt have the 1 cast time but its close and does steal energy from people, It does almost the same thing as spirit pain, only this is an elite.

A few things:
- Energy Surge is elite, Spiritual Pain is not.
- Realistically speaking, Energy Surge burns up to 8 energy and inflicts up to 80 damage.
- There is a *huge* difference between a 2s cast and a 1s cast, and remember, Mesmers will have fast cast. It is similar to the difference between a 1/2s cast and a 3/4s cast. From a strictly numerical standpoint, there is almost no difference - just a 1/4s right? But practically speaking, 3/4s is about the limit of what you can interrupt consistently on reaction. So although the 1/2s cast is only 1/4s faster than the 3/4s cast, it is *much* less likely to be interrupted.
- The main advantages that Esurge has over spiritual are the radius ("in the area" vs. "nearby" - a big difference, actually), and the edenial.

Gregslot · Nov 28, 2006, 12:25 AM // 00:25

maybe doing dmg at spirits only?

Thallandor · Nov 28, 2006, 04:20 AM // 04:20

/not signed

___________________
Just say NO to Nerfism

Mercury Angel · Nov 28, 2006, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Ultimately, Mesmer's one main weakness tends to be that it's almost completely reactional, with unconditional direct damage effects being far and few (and often only a secondary side-effect). Spiritual Pain is the anti-thesis of that, even dealing nearby AoE damage to boot.

I like it, I love using it, and it's really rounded out Mesmer spike builds; But it shouldn't be this way. It feels very un-Mesmer, the masters of subtlety.

It's like this;
Discharge Electricity - 15en, 1 cast, 30 recharge
Spell
Target foe is struck for 10+(6X) lightning damage and all nearby foes are struck for 15+(4X) lightning damage. This spell has 25% armour penetration.

The skill is almost fundamentally sound in a vacuum, but it's largely inappropriate for Air Magic. Air Magic is designed to do AoE's poorly, and this defies that notion completely.

Well, that, and inflicting 140 lightning damage unconditionally on a 60 AL target with a 1 second cast spell, ignoring the AoE component for a moment, is ridiculous. But even if you wanted to point that out, one could counter that defence ignoring damage is at an even higher premium, particularly larger amounts of it, almost always coming with some kind of drawback or conditional aspect.

Faer · Nov 28, 2006, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Well, I'm a pretty huge fan of Mesmers, both in PvE and PvP, and I do agree that this skill is just a bit too powerful (I don't have Nightfall yet, so I'm going by the numbers at this point). I noticed that some of you were bringing up the spell [wiki]Energy Surge[/wiki], so I'll use it in my example below.

At 16 Domination Magic (which is not really necessary, but we'll go with max possible attribute simply for the sake of "worst case scenario" discussion), [wiki]Spiritual Pain[/wiki] quickly followed by an Energy Surge would be 186 damage to a single foe, 159 damage to all nearby foes, and 80 damage to all foes in the area, but not within "nearby" range. If Spiritual Pain were to hit a Spirit, then you could potentially up those numbers to 292 damage to a single foe, and 238 damage to all nearby foes. All of this of course at the cost of 20 (or 30 if Spiritual Pain hits a Spirit) energy, which would be just over half of my standard energy pool when I play Mesmer in PvP, in a matter of a second or so, and the best part is, the damage is completely armor-ignoring, so you'll hit just as hard on a Warrior as you would on an Elementalist. If you wanted to go all-out on this, you could throw in [wiki]Arcane Echo[/wiki], and potentially deal 502/396/80. While you won't be able to kill a character with this combination in one go (unless they have a lot of Superior Runes), two Mesmers are all it would take to either kill a target or get it close to death, while also doing large amounts of damage to the majority of their allies (assuming of course there is a Spirit to be hit; if not, well, that's what the rest of your team is for).

I'm sorry, but given those numbers, I am inclined to agree with Epinephrine; this skill is just far too powerful as it stands. It either needs the numbers tweaked, or to be given Elite status (in my own personal opinion). Sure, it's nice that those who play Mesmer characters can now deal out damage on par with offensive Ritualists and Pyromancers (even exceeding them in some cases), but this is a bit too far, and not to mention against the spirit of Mesmerization.

Edit: If that number crunching I did turns into a popular spike build, I take credit for designing it.

Yawgmoth · Nov 28, 2006, 08:24 AM // 08:24

This skill is great by itself, it's the mesmer spike and area damage that ignores armor. Recharge 30 is a bit high but it doesn't matter as there are no other mes skills apart from E Surge that have a similar effect.

Then we come to it's anti-spirit ability. Instant recharge makes it a Searing Flames on steroids! I love the feel of this incredible power, nuking whole teams with it much better than a fire ele could gives me the feeling of godly ownage

Like nothing else in GW.
The only problem is that the sheer power of this skill is one of the reasons Ritualists aren't playable in high level GvG (the other reason being overpowered Paragons)

fallot · Nov 28, 2006, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kai Nui

This is pretty ridiculous, it's not like a big deal. If you're getting hurt by the skill, simply walk away from the spirit, the spirit range is huge. If they've pressured your team into a tight area with your spirit, then tough luck, cause you're probably going to die anyway. In fact, if you're pressured to be near the spirit not only can you be nuked out easily, but I'd think that's a pretty effective ritualist spirit counter. Even then, if they're using it on you constantly, if you walk far enough away it won't hit a spirit and will take 30 seconds to recharge. Not really seeing how this skill is so great. Not to mention you do have an energy limit anyhow.

As politely as possible, you do not get the point of this skill. People would take this skill even if it did not recharge instantly when it hit a spirit. People would take this skill even if the energy cost was upped to 15. Why ? Because its 100 damage delivered in less than a second, the kind of compressed damage you can effortlessly spike with. You have your Shadow Prison warrior jump to the called target and unload while your mesmers pump our Spiritual Pain. Presto, death penalty.

All of this has been said in previous posts, I request you to read them (Drewfense's and the OP) again and observe some matches.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ehecatzin Flyingcrab

how detached from reality do you have to be to create a rant to attack a class in such personal terms...you really seem offended by the spike capabilities of spiritual pain.

I can't attack it in personal terms, it's a profession in an online game. My post wasn't even directed at you (the one preceding yours was the one that felt ridiculous). Your reply sort of reinforces what I was trying to say, why did you feel the need to defend yourself after my post ?

"Create a rant to attack a class" ? I never even mentioned mesmers before the post you quoted, only Spiritual Pain.

Shadow of Light · Nov 28, 2006, 09:58 AM // 09:58

I play both a mesmer and a rit, and (even without having played pvp since Nightfall came out) have to agree this spell looks too powerful at the moment. I have nothing against nerfing things like this.

It looks like an Elementalist spell without the Exhaustion penalty. Mesmer skills are more insidious than this monster...

Thalion Galad · Nov 28, 2006, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Nerf the nerfers
/notsigned

Cass · Nov 28, 2006, 02:46 PM // 14:46

1) There are many skills in the game presently that would need adjustment WAY before this. Searing flames? Incoming? They can nerf more than a few spirits as far as I'm concerned, but ...

2) This sort of nerfing has to stop. All this leads to is a game where damage comes in a slow drizzle and defensive turtling tactics prevail.

/notsigned

Epinephrine · Nov 28, 2006, 02:52 PM // 14:52

I have to say, I love the rationale that something shouldn't be nerfed because other things need it more.

Believe it or not, the devs adjust more than one skill at a time.

The skill is good enough that people have said they'd consider packing it as an elite over Energy Surge. It's that good. The fact that it happens to maul spirits is a side effect.

yesitsrob · Nov 28, 2006, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Upping the cast time to 2 seconds would be a start. Even then it would do way more to spirits than unnatural can begin to considering being able to do. But so much armor ignoring - aoe damage should not come with a 1 second cast. I probably wouldn't bring it over surge... if it was elite, just due to the area of effect. but even then i find it to be a close call...

2 second cast time. and maybe only improve the recharge on hitting a spirit? as opposed to making it instant. Sure Spiritual Pain isn't being carried for it's abilities to roll over spirits right now. But that probably has a lot to do with people not bringing rit spirits when there is a more mobile version of them (which would be a paragon).

Some people would do well to read the thread before posting in it.

there are many means in which Spiritual Pain can be toned down a little and it would still be amazing.

Cass · Nov 28, 2006, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

I have to say, I love the rationale that something shouldn't be nerfed because other things need it more.

Believe it or not, the devs adjust more than one skill at a time.

You misunderstand. My argument is that if the community/the developers consider this skill to be overpowered already, it would mean a range of nerfs up and above, including those I mentioned and more all the way down to this one, which I consider to be out of proportion.

Effendi Westland · Nov 28, 2006, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Very unmesmery skill. I agree on a casting time or dmg nerf even though I love this skill in pve Mesmers shouldn't outnuke a nuker (SQ anyone?).

Former Ruling · Nov 28, 2006, 04:04 PM // 16:04

The main problem (its an opinion whether its a problem or not) with Spiritual pain and Wastrel's Demise are that they are great Spike helping skills. Before this mesmers could Shatter if there was an enchantment on the person, and maybe follow up with a slow Energy Burn/Surge that would probably be healed through by that time. The Focus of mesmers in GvG is surely changing now.

Straight E-denial got raped by the addition of Paragons. With the hex builds out now Migraine is a strong choice if you are running that sort of build. For the dom mesmers that are left - They are using much less of their traditional shutdown and much more of this new found Spike-help with some other stuff added to cast inbetween (like Blinding Surge, or Incoming!) The extra help killing on a spike just thumps the effects of shutdown in this meta....

EDIT: to the guy that said Demise is a revamped overload...Not quite. Demise's conditional dmg isn't based on a point in time (like if they are casting a spell) but rather a constant variable - How many spells they have equipped. Meaning it is always going to be decent dmg for a spike follow up on a caster, or other situations versus a caster. Wastrel's Demise isn't on the same level as Spiritual Pain though, since it is not AoE and only has decent dmg vs casters.

BahamutKaiser · Nov 28, 2006, 04:32 PM // 16:32

The fact that Mesmer has a wholsome damage spell doesn't bother me at all. agains't players, the recast makes it a one hit wonder, use twice a minute is not going to do anything but contribute to someone elses damage or spike. I think this is a good example of the added advantage a long recast spell should have to balance it out. The advantage it has against spirits is a little overdone IMO, but overall, it does depend on certain skills to be present to gain that advantage.

I don't think the problem lies in the counter, I think the problem lies in the skill it counters. Spirits are already immobile, and easy as hell to eliminate if you just start attacking them with any skills. It may seem these spirit destroying skills are a bit overpowered, but it is barely any better than throwing fireballs at a spirit, if it is against a normal unit it will have far higher recast, if it hits a spirit it will have far less.

Again, I think the error lies with Ritualist, and how much he loses when he is slammed by spirit counters. 15-25 energy to summon an immobile support spirit which is already easy to kill by any amount of attacking. I think the costs and function of many spirits could stand to be much better, making spirit countering a neccessary part of overcoming a Ritualist build. It isn't like a counter which isn't available if you don't bring a certain skill, regular damage and focused attack can take down a spirit in seconds, so making it more functional and lasting just makes sense.

Often times when there is an imbalance, it isn't the new skill that is broken, people just accept the previous norm as a standard and assume anything that functions outside that box is broken, but often it is the functions already present which are disfunctional and poor, and should be raised to a standard of excellence, not draw everything back to a standard of mundain.

Along with the superiority of Paragon, Ritualist is suffering alot, and axing everything in the game to keep them as weak and difficult as Ritualist is an obvious mistake, it is Ritualist which needs to be driven up to the standard that most other classes function at.

tomcruisejr · Nov 28, 2006, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

Often times when there is an imbalance, it isn't the new skill that is broken, people just accept the previous norm as a standard and assume anything that functions outside that box is broken, but often it is the functions already present which are disfunctional and poor, and should be raised to a standard of excellence, not draw everything back to a standard of mundain.

This is the perpetual state of the game.

frojack · Nov 28, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Oh great. Another skill that makes using spirits even more ridiculous. Shame I use a class that needs to be near and use them to be effective. What was Anet thinking? Hey, is there a way to 'junk' the Ritualists even more? I know...

Then theres the addition of lot's of new rit skills that happen to be enchantments - In the chapter where enchantment removal is at an all time high (incidentally another area mesmers excell in).

It's not like spirits are actually difficult to kill as it is.

/signed

Here's a question for you guys: How else can anet gimp Ritualists? (rhetoric for those easily baited).

Drewfense · Nov 28, 2006, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

Often times when there is an imbalance, it isn't the new skill that is broken, people just accept the previous norm as a standard and assume anything that functions outside that box is broken, but often it is the functions already present which are disfunctional and poor, and should be raised to a standard of excellence, not draw everything back to a standard of mundain.

The problem is one linguistically. Old builds give way to new builds. By adding new skills to the game this is a positive effect. Builds are refined, new ones are possible to create. More options are added. For example, monks have never been so diverse in GvG. Prophecies running 2 Boon Prots with the option of 2 mesmer elites has given way to numerous reasonable builds that can legitimately take 4-5 different monk elites and even some from other classes. Skill imbalances on the otherhand cause old strategies to give way to new strategies. When strategies are removed from the game, variety reduces having a negative effect on the game. A simple example (although obs will show you numerous), look at the Paragon with Energizing Finale. We ran a build with the skill and faced a top 100 team with heavy edenial (surge/burn/weariness/fear me). I never switched to my negative energy set...my energy was never low enough. By one skill anet has eliminated the strategy of edenial.

Sidenote: It seems like almost every post involves spirits, but Spiritual Pain has almost nothing to do with spirits. If you took that effect completely out of the description, we would still be having this discussion of a 1 second non elite spell on a mesmer.