Curse

Chicken Ftw · Nov 28, 2006, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Not sure why some PvE-only players are in this topic randomly asking for no nerfs because it'd effect their game too, but I do wish they'd chill. Until you've actually experienced this firsthand, please gtfo.

Back on topic, I agree with Lyra.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

For me its:

Adjust paragon Leadership a little.
Adjust paragon skills a little.
Buff paragon counters a little.

really and truly the counters suck.

Don't want a huge nerf to make them unplayable, just some adjustments. The practically unlimited energy from Leadership is broken, plain and simple. People keep mentioning the same three skills to counter them, one of which is a useless well, and one's a useless spirit. So there's what, one really viable counter (VM), and even that's easily removed? Buff counters please.

glountz · Nov 28, 2006, 04:27 PM // 16:27

As many before stated, Parangon shouts are not overpowered, but counters are completely lacking and underpowered. Worst, most of the few counters available are too much oriented against shouts and chants exclusively, thus having no or few utility outside the shout/chant prevention.
The first thing to do is to put an icon on the health bar to show who is affected by a chant. Actually, you don’t know who is benefiting from a shout, so you can’t have counters that removes or punish chants affecting a foe. A little green arrow should be cool.
I will propose some buffs on the existing counters, and some additionnal counters as well to cope with these uncounterable paragons.
Buff to actual counters (bold for changes) :

Roaring winds
10 5 60
For 10…54 seconds, create a level 1…11 spirit. Chants and Shouts cost 1...10 more Energy and have their activation time doubled.
Notes: Roaring winds changes from a minor annoyance to a huge threat for paragon heavy teams. They will have to kill the spirit in order to properly use their shouts.
Vocal Minority
10 1 20
For 5...17 seconds, target foe and all nearby foes cannot use Shouts or Chants. When Vocal Minority ends, hexed foe loose 5…29 health for each shout, echo or chant on him.
Notes: This way, Vocal Minority has an built-in cover hex. If it is removed by hex removal such as Divert hexes in a paragon heavy build, this will result in mass damage for each party member affected by shouts.
Well of Silence
15 2 20
Exploit target corpse to create a Well of Silence for 10...26 seconds. Shouts and Chants used in the well fail and each foe within suffer -1...3 Health degeneration, and -1 additional Health degeneration for each Shout and Chant affecting them.
Notes: Now Well of Silence is a real threat. Just standing out of the well for paragons was too easy. Now, if they use their shouts within the well, they will burn out their energy/adrenalin, that is to say that WoSi would work more like Spell Breaker. And if the paragons still use their shouts outside the well for their teammates inside the well, those teammates will suffer massive degeneration. Well of Silence become a real area control spell.
Ulcerous Lungs
15 2 30
For 10...22 seconds, target foe and all nearby foes suffer from -2 Health degeneration and take 10…34 damage each time they use a shout or chant. If they were under a shout or chant when Ulcerous Lungs ends, they begin bleeding for 3…13 seconds.
Notes: When a skill is so oriented towards countering one specific set of skills without preventing these skills to be used, it has to be powerful. With its 30 sec recharge, Ulcerous Lungs needed to have a side effect if removed.

Now I think each profession (other than the necro, I won’t add any necro counters) should have its own counters on shouts and chants. I will propose some for each actual profession. Progression is showed for a 0…12 in the attribute line.
Warriors
“Roar!”
Tactics
5 AD
Each nearby foe loose one chant or Shout and 1…13 health (max foes : 1….6).
“Shut up!”
Tactics
4 AD
Each nearby foe is affected by “Shut up!”. If these foes were using a shout or chant, it is interrupted and their shout, chants and echoes skills are disabled for 1…13 seconds.
Blade Song
10E 20r
Strenght
Stance. For 1…13 seconds, you attack 25% faster. When you hit, you remove one shout/chant/echo from target foe.
Howling Strike
5E 5r
Axe mastery
This attacks hits for +5…17 damage. If target foe is affected by a shout/chant/echo, this attack deals an additional +5…17 damage and target foe suffers from a deep wound for 1…13 seconds.
Teeth Crush
6 AD
Hammer mastery
This attacks hits for +5…17 damage. If target foe is affected by a shout/chant/echo, he is knocked down.

Mesmers
Voice Theft
10 1 25
Domination
Shouts/Chants and Echoes affecting target foe and their remaining duration are transferred to you.
Mute
5 1 5
Domination
Hex Spell. For 1…13 seconds, next time target foe use a shout, it fails and you steal from him 1…7 energy.
Bad Vibes.
Domination
15 3 25
Hex Spell. For 10 seconds, each time a shout lands on target foe, he takes 25…145 damage.
Voice shackles
Inspiration
10 3 10
Hex Spell. For 1…24 seconds, each time a shout lands on target foe, he looses 5 energy.
Illusion of Sound
Illusion
10 1 15
Hex Spell. For 1…24 seconds, shouts/chants and echoes on target foe have no effect (but they are still present).

Rangers
Howling arrows
15 2 20
Wilderness Survival
Preparation. For 1..13 seconds, your arrows deal +1…13 damage, interrupt Chants and Echoes and remove one chant/shout or echo when they hit.
Throat Shot.
10e 10r
Marksmanship
If this shot hits a foe affected by a shout or a chant, it deals +1…7 damage for each chant/shout on him and his shout/chant/echoes skills are disabled for 1..13 seconds.
Bestial Roaring
10e 5r
Beast Mastery
Your pet attempts a Bestial Roaring attack. If it hits, it deals +1…25 damage and target foe loose one chant/shout/echo.

Monk
Pure Voice
Divine Favor
10 1 30
Spell. You loose every shout on you, and so do foes in the area (max:1…7 foes).
Voice of Judgement
Smiting Prayers
5 1 15
Hex. Each time target foe uses a chant, every foe affected by this chant takes 1…25 Holy damage.
Voice of Protection
Protection prayers
15 2 20
Chant. For 1…13 seconds each party member affected by Voice of Protection have their damage taken from foes under a chant/shout/echo reduced by 1…25 points.
Healing Voice
Healing Prayers
5 1 10
Enchantment. For 1…13 seconds, each time a chant lands or ends on target ally, he is healed by 1…19 points.

Elementalist
Flu
10 1 10
Water Magic
Target foe and nearby foes are hexed by the Flu. They get weakness for 1..13 seconds if they were affected by a chant/shout and take 14…63 frost damage each time they use a chant/shout/echo.
Hurricane
25 3 15
Air Magic
Create a Hurricane at target foe’s location for 5 seconds. Each second, Target foe and nearby foes take 5…41 frost damage and loose one chant. This spell causes exhaustion.
Rumbling Earth
15 2 10
Earth Magic
Target foe and nearby foes takes 15…63 Earth damage. If they were under a chant/shout/echo, they are knocked down.

Assassin
Signet of Whispers
3/4c 10r
No Attribute.
For each Chant/Shout affecting target foe, you loose 1 hex and 1 condition.
Throatcut
Dagger Mastery
5e 10r
Lead Attack. Target foe begins bleeding for 1….13 seconds, and Throatcut deals +1…24 damage for each chant/shout/echo on target foe.
Distracting whispers
Deadly Arts
10 1 15
Hex. For 1…13 seconds, target foe suffers -1 Health degeneration for each Shout/Chant affecting him. In addition, each time target foe uses a Chant/Shout/Echo, it has an additional 1…13 seconds recharge.
Shrilling blades
Critical strikes
5 1 20
Enchantment. For each 1…7 seconds, each time you deal a critical hit, target foe loose 1 chant/shout and Shrilling blades is renewed.

Ritualist
Disharmony
Communing
15 5 45
Create a lvl 1…8 spirit at your location. This spirit deals 1...25 damage and remove one chant each time it hits a foe. This spirit dies after 15…63 seconds.
Whispering
Communing
25 5 60
Create a lvl 1…8 spirit at your location. Foes chants and shouts in the area expire 5…41% faster. This spirit dies after 10…46 seconds.
Whistling weapon
Channeling magic
10 2 30
Target ally has a whistling weapon for 1…18 seconds. Whenever target ally hits a foe under a chant/shout, it deals an additional 1…7 damage and remove one chant/shout.
Babbling was Zaratustrah
Restoration Magic
10 2 30
Hold Zaratustrah’s ashes for 1…25 seconds. You have 75% chance to evade foes under a shout/chant while you hold them. When you drop Zaratustrah’s ashes, nearby foes loose one Chant/Shout.
Cries From Beyond
Spawning Power
15 2 45
For 10…46 seconds, whenever you create a spirit, foes in the area loose 1 shout/chant. If a shout/chant is removed this way, they take 15…63 lightning damage.

Dervish
Avatar of Kormir
Mysticism
10 2 10
For 15…63 seconds, you take the form of the Keeper of Secrets. While in this form, conditions and hexes on you expire 33% faster, and you remove one chant/shout/echo each time you hit successfully with an attack skill. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.
Guiding Voices
Wind Prayers
10 3/4 20
Enchantment. Guiding voices has a 5…17 seconds duration. While under this enchantment, your attacks cannot be “blocked” or “evaded” by foes under a chant or shout. When it ends, nearby foes loose one chant/shout/echo.
Buzzing sweep
Scythe mastery
5 3/4 30
Scythe attack. You deal +5…17 damage. If you hit a foe under a shout/chant/echo, you loose one enchantment, Buzzing sweep is instantly recharged.
Quiet Earth
Earth Mastery
15 3/4 .20
Enchantment. Quiet Earth has a 5…17 seconds duration. While under this enchantment, you cannot be targeted by foes under a shout or chant, but cannot be affected by shouts or chants as well. When Quiet Earth ends, you loose all energy.

Paragon
Counter Chant.
Command
10 1 20
Chant. For 1…7 seconds, next time affected allies within earshot hit a foe with an attack skill, they remove one chant/shout/echo from this foe.
The Song Remains the Same
Leadership
10 1 20
Echo. Each time a shout/chant/echo on target other ally ends, a nearby foe loose one chant/shout/echo too.

Qual · Nov 28, 2006, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Do you actually GvG?

Yes in a matter of fact I do. Check my guild tag and you will se that my guild have done alot og GvGs. And yes I am in the line up. Hmm... You say it is a problem. seems like you don't know what you are talking about. The counters for a paragon are so shit easy to bring in a GvG. Our Paragon got rolled over a bounch times by necros. If you see team buffing as a problem, I can only say "lmao".

B Ephekt · Nov 28, 2006, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

There are a few solutions. You and the OP, among others favor the first:

Actually, I don't. If you had actually bothered to read my post you'd even see that I stated otherwise. "I would actually prefer to see more and better counters added rather than seeing skills nerfed" The problem is that Anet most likely won't introduce new counters, so we have to address rebalancing what's already available.

Quote:

Myself and a few others see a bigger problem which is that defense is overpowered compared to offense.

This is exactly the reason paragons are imbalanced. The absolutely destroy offensive play and encourage hold out builds. In tombs they create builds with barely enough offense to kill bad teams, and rely on fighting these teams to progress. When they face a good team they rely on the team resigning out due to frustration or rolling dice for a win. In GvG, you've got a ton of guilds doing nothing but standing there with an Incoming chain while they clear out NPCs in preperation for VoD.

Quote:

As twicky_kid points out, hex removals are overpowered, which therefore all but eliminates hexes from the metagame.

Hex removals are nowhere near being overpowered, they just finally got to the point of being on par. The thing now is that hex overload builds just aren't as brainlessly easy to pull off as they were in the past. And I'm sorry, but if you think hex removal is the problem here you're way off track.

Quote:

2. Nerf the paragon a little.
4. Buff some counters like Vocal Minority in terms of recharge time.

This is a very sensible solution. Paragons don't need to be destroyed, but they certainly need to be taken down a notch. Energizing needs to have the max energy reduced and the recharge lengthened, for one, and Incoming could use a longer recharge. The majority of Paragon skills are just fine, however.

Quote:

Also, you didn't respond to the suggestion of bringing a Mesmer w Sig of Humility and Mantra of Inscriptions. Those two skills can completely shut down Incoming.

I don't recall that suggestion ever being targeted at me... but that would reduce the offense of a dual paragon build a bit. The problem is that the team's monks still have infinite energy and the Motivation guy buffing them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qual

Yes in a matter of fact I do. Check my guild tag and you will se that my guild have done alot og GvGs. And yes I am in the line up. Hmm... You say it is a problem. seems like you don't know what you are talking about. The counters for a paragon are so shit easy to bring in a GvG. Our Paragon got rolled over a bounch times by necros. If you see team buffing as a problem, I can only say "lmao".

Guesting for a top 50 guild yesterday, every single match we fought was against dual paragon teams. Of these, some had Incoming on their mesmers making for a ~18 out of 20 second Incoming chain. Furthermore, as long as their monks stayed near the paragons they have infinite energy. All of this results in pressure being largely useless and most matches being a stand off to see who can clear out the most NPCs for a long and drawn out VoD battle.

I'm sorry but you've got to either be completely out of touch with the meta, or play at such a low level that it's irrelevant, to not notice these things.

Zinger314 · Nov 28, 2006, 08:52 PM // 20:52

I received an interesting PM today, basically calling me an idiot (and "YOUR WRONG") and that Thallinor "owned me." Won't paraphrase it, though.

Yeesh, don't the Paragon defenders think that they could be the slightest bit mature about this and not resort to childish ad hominemattacks?

I like glountz's skill suggestions, though. Buff the counters.

Jetdoc · Nov 28, 2006, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Honestly, anyone asking for certain skills to be reduced in effectiveness will always be attacked on a forum. It's natural - you get used to using an overpowered/exploitable skill, and you don't want someone to take it away from you. Counters only mitigate those overpowered/exploitable skills - sometimes the skills themselves need to be changed to restore balance to the PvP (and sometimes PvE game).

I absolutely agree with your suggestion on Energizing Finale, but I think low cost adrenaline shouts are still needed in the game, whether they be Warrior or Paragon shouts.

lilnate22 · Nov 28, 2006, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

I received an interesting PM today, basically calling me an idiot (and "YOUR WRONG") and that Thallinor "owned me." Won't paraphrase it, though.

Yeesh, don't the Paragon defenders think that they could be the slightest bit mature about this and not resort to childish ad hominemattacks?

I like glountz's skill suggestions, though. Buff the counters.

there u go finally using your brain. instead of calling for a a nerf skills shoud be buffed

and he did make a killer statement against you.

and i hardly doubt its a hominem attack. more of a sstatement

and us "paragon defenders" can careless about paragons. we just hate stupid ppl who call for nerfs w/o even thinking.
p.s we also hate cry babies.

Ruby Lightheart · Nov 28, 2006, 09:16 PM // 21:16

ya know...this happens ever few weeks..someone says a class they are having problems countering is overpowered and should be nerfed. I think Anet does a better job than most as far as keeping balances...but its up to the players themselves to find what balances work best for their style of gameplay. So just cause you have problems countering a certain profession doesnt mean its over powered..it means as a player you need to delve more into your character, the henchies and heros you take and the types of teams you play on. There are counters to pretty much everything..but you gotta find it. And I know for a fact that paragon's can be easily shut down by every current profession. The ability is there..but its up to you to find it. If you believe shouts are a problem..well then look at your character and heros for ways to interrupt those shouts.

Deleet · Nov 28, 2006, 09:23 PM // 21:23

I hate "Profession: W/Mo"

Just buff the counters.

Lord Oranos · Nov 28, 2006, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilnate22

there u go finally using your brain. instead of calling for a a nerf skills shoud be buffed

and he did make a killer statement against you.

and i hardly doubt its a hominem attack. more of a sstatement

and us "paragon defenders" can careless about paragons. we just hate stupid ppl who call for nerfs w/o even thinking.
p.s we also hate cry babies.

Funny, I hate people that attack people on an internet forum, I'm surprised the mods put up with you. Please, keep it to the argument, not the person.

Chris616263 · Nov 28, 2006, 09:35 PM // 21:35

I don't see any problems with Paragons. If you find yourself squaring off with them alot, just make yourself an anti-paragon necromancer. Paragons have to spam their shouts; so if you hit them with Ulcerous Lungs and Spiteful Spirit they murder themselves very quickly.

Or let's just nerf everything so it takes 3 hours to kill eachother. I don't like how "I Will Avenge You!" works against unprepared foes. Let's nerf that.

I don't like to bring any interrupters whatsoever due to my own ignorance of their importance; so let's nerf all spells and attacks that cause large damage like Meteor Shower.

I don't like monks with hex-removing skills either; so lets nerf every single hex in the game!

Oh, I don't like to bring monks period either; so I don't think it's fair that people who are monks can heal so well; let's nerf every single healing skill in the game.

For any of you that are completely inept at detecting sarcasm; I was just mocking you. It's your fault for not being prepared. It's not like you have to put in much effort to destroy paragons. If you like to use skills from one class; slap on necromancer and bring Ulcerous Lungs and give their Paragon some grief.

edwinna elbert · Nov 28, 2006, 09:37 PM // 21:37

From the perspective of someone who's been playing high-level GvG (20-100) over the last few seasons, Paragons seem to be having a really negative effect on fun.

The current top 50 sees a huge number of guilds running one or two paragons for huge defensive and buffing skills, and it makes matches very boring.

You can not run a pressure build vs. paragons, that's pretty much the case now. An enemy team with a paragon takes very little damage, but of course, with all the buffs paragons provide for health and energy and attack bonuses, you can still spike.

Last weekend my guild decided to look at the three main builds we were facing in GvG (hex/pressure with thumpers, dual Me and W, W/Me/P) and make a general counter. We had well of silence, roaring winds, vocal minority. You know what effect it had? None.

Well of silence you can't use, because it requires you to kill something, and with the level of damage mitigation we experienced due to paragons, it didn't happen. Chain incoming and all the other motivation stuff kills your pressure and hurts your spikes. Roaring winds is pathetic. A L4 spirit with 180 health, killed by TWO spells or attacks, but mostly, the team can just move out of range. Vocal minority needs to be present in a hex heavy build or it's gone straight away, and even if it's covered twice, one elite takes it all away.

As has been said, there should be more or better counters to shouts; I've just gotten bored with facing paragon teams who stand there and take no damage, spike some people down, and remain invincible at VoD as all allies (footmen/archers/bodyguard/guildlord) are affected by the shouts too.

Against a single paragon, a split is possible, and can be sucessful as they lose defence on one of their split teams, but against two it's just stalemate until VoD; a 4-3 split with a monk, a paragon and a warrior or mesmer provides no real damage, but huge defence, so again, it's VoD or bust.

Basically, the introduction of paragons has made GvG so boring that I can't be bothered any more. Change them or whatever, but I'm going back to PvE for now where things are less lame.

Zinger314 · Nov 28, 2006, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruby Lightheart

If you believe shouts are a problem..well then look at your character and heros for ways to interrupt those shouts.

If I had a Sig on these fourms...that's what I'd put in it.

A User Name · Nov 28, 2006, 10:25 PM // 22:25

For all you people who say use Vocal Minority, this has been addressed many a time and always it comes back to it is simply too easy to remove. Yes, you can use cover hexes but with Divert Hexes and a bit of hex removal your counter simply fails. Now there really are only a few options and you can take your pick, either nerf the paragons, buff and increase the number of counters, a combination of the two, or leave them the way they are and essentially say "Screw you PvP."

For you defending paragons against any nerf and saying that the counters there are, are fine. Think about this. What another class can offer unstrippable, constant +24-48 AL (I forget the exact number and unable to look it up at the moment so forgive me if my numbers are off), almost infinite infinite energy for your monks, decent healing, and decent damage at the same time for the whole team? Now double that affect since two paragons are the most common now days if you don't do high end GvG or don't watch observer which can give a great insight on the Fotm in GvG (try it out you non-believers about paragons.)

Also let's list the counters to paragons, Vocal Minority (Divert Hexes please), Ulcerous Lungs (Wouldn't stop me from shouting), Roaring Winds (easy to kill, weak effect), Diversion (general counter to everything in the game), Sig of Humility (general counter to every elite in the game), and some impartical measures such as adrenaline denial which has little affect on two paragons shouting a majority of energy shouts, and e-denial which with EF the way it is, is simply pointless.

I would rather see the counters simply buffed and increased in number rather than a nerf to extreme measures and ending up with another class like the rit. Unfortunately I believe paragons will have to be nerfed since Anet, I don't believe, will add skills or new conditions to help try to balance the paragon. Anyway I think some of your skill suggestions are on the right track glountz good job there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

I'm sorry but you've got to either be completely out of touch with the meta, or play at such a low level that it's irrelevant, to not notice these things.

QFT, sorry Qual but he's right.

lilnate22 · Nov 28, 2006, 10:29 PM // 22:29

edwinna why do you think paragons make gvg &HOH boring? you state that all the top50 guilds use paragons in there build. fine ur prolly right they probably do use paragons in thier builds. but guess what all the 10k+ guilds have monks in thier builds too. so would they fit in to ur catagory as well?
and as for you "lord oranos" i atacked no one. but rather any one who called for a nerf w/o even thinking about the REAL posibilites.
im glad that zinger FINALLY understand (i thnink) that paragons only need a real minor tweek. and that the counters them selves hav to be buffed.

p.s zinger it was fun arguing wit u old sport, u did have sum real nice valid counters. but that one statement realy did u in. but anyhu energy F. needs a nerf just make the time dependant and e gain+1

umm a username-hmm hsnt all of us "paragon defenders" said that there needs to be more counters for us? non of us paragon defenders ever said anything about not nerfing.. we DO belive in a nerf. but not to the extreames of some ppl. in ur justification off the counter do hold to be somewhat true like isaid they need to be buffed a lil, but then again for every counter...there is a counter for that too.
u say that VM is easily removable true. then arnt all the other counters for say bonder,tucher,mesmer,ele etc arnt they all removable or easily avoided?

incoming HAS to be 10e, 5e is not rite
SOR needs to be buffed down a lil.

A User Name · Nov 28, 2006, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by A User Name

For you defending paragons against any nerf and saying that the counters there are, are fine. Think about this.

I never said anything other than that meaning there were quite a few of you saying adapt to the game and words along those lines, which can not be done without more counters, which will number-wise not increase most likely (I will be very impressed with Anet if they do add more counters, such as skills, or conditions, but I doubt it).

Now also going to your point about counters to everything, the counters to the counters to the paragons are simply too easy to pull off. Normally that would be a valid point, but untill we see what Anet does we cannot do anything other than express our discontent and logic behind it and hope that Anet will fix the unbalance that plagues PvP.

Grasping Darkness · Nov 29, 2006, 12:06 AM // 00:06

my small input
i think most people want paragons nerfed because they cant spam 2 sec recharge searing flames and get a win in 20 seconds

paragons have revived classes that wouldnt be normally used and have done well to stop teams of all one class which are overpowered

Phoenix Arrows · Nov 29, 2006, 12:33 AM // 00:33

I really like the Weakness idea with the 50% chance to fail on a shout/chant/echo/whatever.

If you nerf the Paragon, then what's the point of adding a new class to Nightfall? People wont even use it since it is so screwed over. This is the same with the Ritualist. I was planning to make a Ritualist, but due to the many nerfs they have gotten from people who can't find counters to them, I decided it wasn't worth making, as I would have no fun playing Ritualists anyway.

If you are so intent on one class "being overpowered" in your mind, then why not make Guild Wars a game with only one profession, no secondary, and make everyone have the same skillset/armor/health/energy/weapon? That way it will be perfectly balanced.

Paragons are meant to be support characters. If they get nerfed to oblivion, what is the point of making a Paragon a support character if they can't do anything to help due to nerfs? A Hex removal is not always going to be readily available to use on the Paragon. If you run a hex-heavy build, what are the chances that the Vocal Minority is going to be removed in no time if it is stacked with 3 other hexes? Vocal Minority shuts down most Paragon builds, and do you believe that is balanced? That one skill can mean that a character can't function?

The "Watch Yourself!" proposed nerf is just a horrible idea. You plan to nerf a Warrior skill just because Paragons make good use of the shout.

/sarcasm
ZOMGWTFH4X the Monk keeps getting away from my Adrenaline spike with Return! Nerf Assassins now!
/sarcasm off

With the "Incoming!" complaints, why not do some creative thinking and spike while the shout is recharging? Find a way to get the spike ready again by the time that "Incoming!" ends, and you still have a 13-second timeframe to execute the spike.

/unsigned
Don't nerf a class to the point that is it useless. Make more counters.

Also, Zinger, don't forget that you yourself used the phrase "Learn to Adapt", or something along the lines of that. So, if you are to stay true to your phrase, you too should adapt to the Paragons and find counters to them instead of nerfing them.

And as to Angelic Bond, don't forget that the damage split is not reduced, so you are still dealing the same damage as before, only now one character takes a lot of damage. Solution: Pressure the other team until the Paragon dies from taking damage from Angelic Bond.

twicky_kid · Nov 29, 2006, 01:51 AM // 01:51

Hexes are not going to be the answer. The last time I've seen a full blown hex team that wasn't SB/RI was at the end of season 1. That was nearly a year ago. Even back then they were not that effective. Now we have expel/divert hexes that just completely shatters any hopes of hexes becoming powerful.

Here is why hexes will not become strong. Most hexes are 10e. You cast 2 hexes at 20e cost expel removes for 5e. Even at 5e per hex you are still losing more energy than it takes to remove the hexes. In the instance of revealed/inspire hexes you give your foe energy (once the paragon battery is nerfed it will return). In the case of divert hexes you complete screw any offense you have by using hexes. Hexes are nearly always acompanied by degen condtions. Divert not only removes the hexes it also takes the conditions and heals them which in turn nullifies the degen dmg.

Even back in season 1 hexes where mangable. The 64 skills for gvg number has not changed so you cannot pack more hexes than you could before but now you can remove more hexes while using less slots. You also use less energy to remove a hex then it takes to cast the hexes.

If you think that hexes are going to counter a paragon you are on a losing bet. Any team with a paragon is going to ensure he will stay hex free. If that team doesn't bring good hex removal they lost to themselves for not covering the classes weakness which is not very hard to do.

Zinger314 · Nov 29, 2006, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Arrows

Also, Zinger, don't forget that you yourself used the phrase "Learn to Adapt", or something along the lines of that. So, if you are to stay true to your phrase, you too should adapt to the Paragons and find counters to them instead of nerfing them.

I did find counters. Read the thread.

The problem is that those "counters" do not work!