Curse

HolyHawk · Nov 27, 2006, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Like someone said, I believe other professions, other than just necromancer should have ways to counter shouts or something. Stopping adrenaline gain won't stop energy skills, and denying energy won't stop adrenaline synergy. Using a setup uniquely to shut down a paragon is not tactical wise either.

Currenctly, I adapted my mesmer to domination and I've been dealing with them with diversion and simple thievery (which is considered dull, and to many and a waste of elite, but you just have no idea of what it can help within the new metagame); I also fit in cry of frustration for signets and chants. My opinion on balance should be, rising some energy costs, and more specifically on incoming, reduce duration time; if it was a anti spike skill, 3 seconds sounds fair. Angelic Bond is fine as it is; if the paragon spams it around too many targets, his health will be down quite fast.

Regarding the retardness of the new holding build, well of silence is an option but what stops you from stepping aside... Seriously, how boring the HA is now this way... It's clever, it's how it was supposed to be used, but now it's a run competition to the altar, and a dice rolling in anihilation maps.

Zinger314 · Nov 27, 2006, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilnate22

if you didnt notice the sarcasm... u kno now.
hell all of the skills should be over 10e! cuz some of us are too stupid to come up w/ counters!

That's not sarcasm, that's exaggeration and mostly ignorance.

Alright then, O mighty one, what's the counter to the Paragon hold build?

lilnate22 · Nov 27, 2006, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thallandor

Source? Start a poll or dont make assumptions.

No adrenline gain = no shouts.

Perhaps i should start a thread on how:

-Shambling Horrors are overoverpowered, lets nerf it
-mesmers interupts are too powerful lets nerf them too.
-Oh lets not forget Searing Flames, since so many people are QQing about it too.
-Oh dont forget mending as well since its overpowered, meaning healing is overpowered too, lets nerf monks.
-Lets nerf all NF skills and class while we are at this and remove Heros from the game all

And since this is in suggestion forums.
/Not signed

haha well put my friend well put! finally a smart human bieng!
paragons DO NOT NEED TO BE NERFED! they just need a shout removal.

lilnate22 · Nov 27, 2006, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

That's not sarcasm, that's exaggeration and mostly ignorance.

Alright then, O mighty one, what's the counter to the Paragon hold build?

the mighty one says this my most insignificant subject.

mesmers have simpathetic visage...ADRN prob solved!
necro-VM and WOS

now what we need is a overall shout removal i.e sumthing like deafness-foes cant be target of shouts
amnesia-remove all shouts,chants from target foe and perhaps have weakness be unable to shout

are you abashed by my ignorance? or just baffled that i got a thing called a brain and actualy use it to do sumthing other than sit here and shout
oOMG ANET NERF PLZ NERF! im too stupid to think of counters for paragons so pllz nerf it to hell!

so which one is it chump?
p.s hawk u got sum good points there bub.
but id say more like have incoming at 10e and keep the duration.

Zinger314 · Nov 27, 2006, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilnate22

the mesmers have simpathetic visage...ADRN prob solved!
necro-VM and WOS

are you abashed by my ignorance? or just baffled that i got a thing called a brain and actualy use it to do sumthing other than sit here and shout
oOMG ANET NERF PLZ NERF! im too stupid to think of counters for paragons so pllz nerf it to hell!

You are correct. I am "abashed" by your ignorance. Because...well...you are being ignorant!

If you actually read the thread, all three of those counters were discussed and shot down.

But since you insist on being lazy...

Sympathetic Visage: Doesn't proc on ranged attacks (i.e. Spears), and if the Paragon is in the AoE, he can just move. Don't bother to argue Soothing Images either, since that doesn't stop adrenaline gain, and it can be removed easily.

Vocal Minority: Hex. Long Recharge. Easily removed with a Divert Hexes, which the holding build has. This was in the OP!

Well of Silence: Paragon can just move. Wells have a relatively tiny AoE. Shouts have a relatively large AoE.

Just read the thread...read the thread.

furbat · Nov 27, 2006, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Not taking into consideration whether the defense a paragon brings is overpowered or not, isn't the real problem that heavy defense is the most viable strategy?

If a team brings 2 paragons and 2 monks, they are crippling their damage output. Isn't the real problem that this isn't a hinderence.

Perhaps the design HA needs to be addressed. Playing around with a paragon, I don't think their abilities asside from energizing finale are overpowered. Maybe holding should be nerfed, paragons are supposed to provide partywide protection. To nerf them so they aren't game breaking, would make them useless at their intended role. Why not instead change the game to favor offense.

Crom The Pale · Nov 27, 2006, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Since the very first GW came out its been a case of pvp players calling for nerfs and pve players screaming about them.

Is there a way to keep both happy??

Instead of nerfing I've always called on new skills to be added that would help balance out any problems that arrise in the way that a prof or its skills are used.

If people cant find or use the counter to paragons then maybe thats what needs to be tweeked. The paragons seem fine to me.

lilnate22 · Nov 27, 2006, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

You are correct. I am "abashed" by your ignorance. Because...well...you are being ignorant!

If you actually read the thread, all three of those counters were discussed and shot down.

But since you insist on being lazy...

Sympathetic Visage: Doesn't proc on ranged attacks (i.e. Spears), and if the Paragon is in the AoE, he can just move. Don't bother to argue Soothing Images either, since that doesn't stop adrenaline gain, and it can be removed easily.

Vocal Minority: Hex. Long Recharge. Easily removed with a Divert Hexes, which the holding build has. This was in the OP!

Well of Silence: Paragon can just move. Wells have a relatively tiny AoE. Shouts have a relatively large AoE.

Just read the thread...read the thread.

how was the new condition ideas been shot down? its hell of alot beter than the idea you got "NERF IT NERF IT!"
the whole issure of paragons int that they are uber its rather that there is no shout removal.

lilnate22 · Nov 27, 2006, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

Since the very first GW came out its been a case of pvp players calling for nerfs and pve players screaming about them.

Is there a way to keep both happy??

Instead of nerfing I've always called on new skills to be added that would help balance out any problems that arrise in the way that a prof or its skills are used.

If people cant find or use the counter to paragons then maybe thats what needs to be tweeked. The paragons seem fine to me.

again a person that actualy thinks... idk bout ur reason of pve and pvp bcuz i do both..
but u are right on 1 fact that skills need to be added rather than nerfed

Jimmy McDoodle · Nov 27, 2006, 05:59 PM // 17:59

New conditions? They'd have to make new quick reference cards!!
Deafness?
Laryngitis?

White Noise would also be a cool name for a (Mesmer?) skill that did Paragons in.
On a slightly sillier front, Smoker's Cough?
Melee characters get throat cutting skills? Could give Assassins a new lease of life.
Make Choking Gas ruin Paragons? It makes sense...
Funny thought train.

lilnate22 · Nov 27, 2006, 06:03 PM // 18:03

ooo ya choking gas ruin paragons is actualy the bset idea..it makes sence too

Zinger314 · Nov 27, 2006, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilnate22

ooo ya choking gas ruin paragons is actualy the bset idea..it makes sence too

You know what makes sense? Decapitation. If you slice someone's head off in real life, they die. Why can't you do that in GW? Video games are, after all, mimics of real life.

B Ephekt · Nov 27, 2006, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thallandor

Source? Start a poll or dont make assumptions.

Yes, because a poll on this forum would actually give us a definitive insight on whether paragons are overpowered or not. On other pvp oriented forums, IRC channels, and guild/friend/alliance chat this has already been discussed to death. Zinger is correct in saying that a majority of pvpers find paragons to be imbalanced in their current state. The current counters are also quite lacking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thallandor

No adrenaline gain = no shouts.

Great point, too bad most of the commonly used shouts and chants are energy based.

LifeInfusion · Nov 27, 2006, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Daze ought to affect shouts' 0 cast. Hell, it was even named Silence before.

Screaming Shot, Choking Gas should affect shouts also

BTW, the mesmer elite Visions of Regret (when covered) works well to damage adrenaline usage. Too bad it is 20 recharge, so in PvP it won't be of much use.

Kaane · Nov 27, 2006, 07:10 PM // 19:10

You keep talking about Hex removal... easy solution: if your hexes are getting removed, stack the hexes.

Monks removing your hexes? Stack low energy quick cast hexes on top like Parasitic Bond. You win.

As someone who plays BOTH a Paragon and a Necro, I'll say this: yes, Paragon is powerful and is a big buff to parties with one or two of them in them. No, they are not unbalanced. A few of their skills are a wee bit on the too-easy-to-cast side and should probably cost a little bit more energy (or perhaps instead take more time to cast, allowing for interruption), but they don't need any significant nerfs.

lilnate22 · Nov 27, 2006, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaane

You keep talking about Hex removal... easy solution: if your hexes are getting removed, stack the hexes.

Monks removing your hexes? Stack low energy quick cast hexes on top like Parasitic Bond. You win.

As someone who plays BOTH a Paragon and a Necro, I'll say this: yes, Paragon is powerful and is a big buff to parties with one or two of them in them. No, they are not unbalanced. A few of their skills are a wee bit on the too-easy-to-cast side and should probably cost a little bit more energy (or perhaps instead take more time to cast, allowing for interruption), but they don't need any significant nerfs.

true. thought shouts should not have any cast time. chantes should and they do. great point on hex covers.

mayb that insignificant subject of mine wuts his face doesnt understand that paragons are not overpowerd as he draws em out to be.
all they need is some minor tweeks.

don note again that these skills are ELITE and are supposed to be good strong skills

incoming should definitly be tweekeked to 10e and recharge and duration stay the same.
AB- this skill is fine
SOR-perhaps reduse the health gain by a little nothing else.
EF-oh hell nerf this one. lower the duration on it or reduse energy gained.
my advise is make t a echo that only gives+1 energy for shouts ending.

rest of the paragon stuff are fine

all we need is a condition that stops the shouts
??
weakness-shouts take 2x cast & only last 1/2 duration?
dazed-cant shout at all.

B Ephekt · Nov 27, 2006, 07:29 PM // 19:29

The problem is that some of the skills offer a bit too much non removable defense, protection or energy. That, coupled with the fact that necro is the only class that offers any real viable counters, and the fact that they're hexes, makes them a bit too powerful in their current state. As for anyone saying to stack hexes, keep in mind that these builds usually have a Divert Hexes, Expel and a Purge Sig or Convert. Hex stacking simply doesn't work on the better teams.

When the majority of GvGs go to VoD when facing a dual paragon build, and the majority HA matches against paragon holding builds last 20+ minutes, there IS a problem. Yes, these builds can be countered and killed, but spending 25 minutes do to so in HA isn't really fun.

Kaane · Nov 27, 2006, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

As for anyone saying to stack hexes, keep in mind that these builds usually have a Divert Hexes, Expel and a Purge Sig or Convert. Hex stacking simply doesn't work on the better teams.

Well, that's true. Spreading hexes around can help this a bit, but I'm agreeing that rather than a nerf, some more skills should be added to existing classes. There should not be a shout removal, but an echo removal I could definately see, and a Deafness condition to prevent people from being on the receiving end of shouts/chants/echos would be good. Actually, I'd limit it to shouts, because between that and a few more skills for either removal or preventing chants/echos it would balance out ok I think.

Another idea (which I briefly mentioned) would be make some of the chants/echos take a little bit longer to cast, making them easier to interrupt. Paragons already have a defense against interruption, so it'd make them drop a skill to pack Song of Concentration.

MithranArkanere · Nov 27, 2006, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Make deaf have a 90% chances of missing a Chant and 50% of missing a shout... what about that?

Ehecatzin FlyingCrab · Nov 27, 2006, 10:11 PM // 22:11

well, the way I see it, it's not that the paragon is to powerful, its just that the counters are too weak. Instead of nerfing the paragon badly ( like it happened to rits) boost the counters so even if paragon effects can be powerful you can still do something against them.

I have to agree, been playing motivation paragon along with command paragon in gvg, and I like it very much, I hve to put attention in everything that is happening to the team, and havent found much counters besides the hex that sileces you ( I dont recall the name) and the ocasional diversion. other than that, not much. But as said, the problem is not the paragon, its the counter, boost the counters and everyone will be happy.