Curse

kincaid · Dec 04, 2006, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Hello,

I do really hope GW developers or ArenaNet workers read this forum.

Although I don't have any equilibiated look on the skills issue (I got few ideas, but none is the "final" one - will come back with it later), the heroes system seems to me a little... illogical.
There are thousands of players all around the world, who play GW with more than one character (in a simple way encouraged by more-than-one-slot PvE idea on the main panel). It was a huge step forward to develop the heroes in the game. Henchies usually follow strict algorithm rules, which are not beneficial for the players during the quests or missions. Heroes made the trick. You can command them, even choose the skills they use. And this is fair enough and help quite a lot (ex. in the situations, where no real human gamers exists - some locations, not as popular as Lion's Arch, Kamadan etc.). The armor performance of heroes grows during the game play, which is also quite ok with me.

The problem consists the items/heroes share. In my mind, a great idea would be to share the heroes between the accounts. Why? Well, normal situation is, that at one time (during a quest or mission) You can have up to 3 heroes. No matter what is their profession. Some of the heroes are available only after completing quests or missions. Players, who decide to run their "old character" through new lands - ex. finishing Nightfall with Tyria Ranger, don't see any problem or difference.
The problem is, as I decided to finish Nightfall with Dervish, who is a new character available in Nightfall. I gathered some heroes, gave them green items to use, used some money on their runes.
Now, I'd like to finish Nightfall with my Tyria ranger. With new lands, some of the locations do not have many real gamers available. So heroes would be the best way (+ henchies). But right now it seems like my LVL20 ranger will be gathering LVL12 Healer, Protector or else. Is there any login in it?? Also, I will be spending more money on the runes (hoping, that during the storyline, as the amor for heroes will be changing - the runes DO NOT DISAPPEAR!!!) and getting all green items from previous heroes into the storage, then - giving them to new heroes. And if I decide to play Dervish again, I will have to make the "green items" change action again and again and again...

This should be corrected, as I see it. If You gain a hero, it should be bind to the account (not character!). If it gains experience, the same experienced one should be available for all account characters (excluding the pre-searings, noob islands and so).

This cencerns some strange ArenaNet tactics about gaming. The more changes I see in the game, the more disappointed I am. Why? Because developers make more and more "can't do's", more limits. It makes the game harder and... less interesting. It is not about the matter, that there is no "month fee" for playing. I appreciate it, but that is no the point. If we look at the concurrent product - World of Warcraft, developers add more possibilities, while GW developers try all the time to limit them. Is it a good tactics? I know, that it is rude trying to equalize GW and WoW, but because of the newest updates, I'm seriously thinking about moving onto WoW... And I really would like it to happen.

best regards
Michael

Knightsaber Sith · Dec 04, 2006, 11:24 AM // 11:24

/notsigned

I beat Nightfall with my dervish using hench 'n' heroes the whole game. None had a single rune on their armor and I just gave them weapons that dropped along the way. The whole "spending money" point on heroes is completely optional and not even an issue.

Leveling heroes isn't an issue either. If you just alternate which ones you use; they should all be atleast near lvl 18 by the time you leave Korna without incident.

kincaid · Dec 05, 2006, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Should be. This is true.
Still, after completing NF, trying not to use Melonni if not needed, she's still LVL12...

Sophitia Leafblade · Dec 05, 2006, 12:37 PM // 12:37

I had all my current heros (including Olias and the sin) at lvl 20 long before i had got out of Kourna and i hadnt gone out to lvl them specifically in anyway i just kept rotating them and doing a few quests although that fact i was already lvl 20 helps since it keep the heros with boosted xp gain (since if ur higher lvl than them they gain like double xp)

Twonaiver · Dec 05, 2006, 01:12 PM // 13:12

im halfway through nightfall, only playin heroes/hench cuz there is no more the "im stuck cuz there is no group" stuff, and im glad i can have a hero with hammer on my sword warrior, and still have a sword hero on m ranger, its not a good idea.

i think its great they hold my weapons for me, since i dont have a weapon hack i use som unused heroes as holders, for stuff i dont wanna sell lol.

kincaid · Dec 05, 2006, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

I had all my current heros (including Olias and the sin) at lvl 20 long before i had got out of Kourna and i hadnt gone out to lvl them specifically in anyway i just kept rotating them and doing a few quests although that fact i was already lvl 20 helps since it keep the heros with boosted xp gain (since if ur higher lvl than them they gain like double xp)

Well, You describe situation, when You choose to play a character STARTING in Elona. It means Dervish, Paragon or other, who didn't play in Tyria or Cantha before. It means You start over a new game instead of continuing the previous achievements.

But AS You choose to continue the adventure with the 'old' character, You surely do not get LVL20 heroes "with the blink of an eye". Another issue is with later heroes, like Zhed, Master of Whispers or General Morgahn.

Dalimoor_Kalkire · Dec 06, 2006, 06:28 AM // 06:28

There is one problem to this. While I do agree that rotating weapons (as I do to) is annoying, I don't mind most of the time. If heroes were across accounts rather then player-based we would have one huge issue...

So you beat the game with your insert profession here and completed Nightfall. Congradulations, all your heroes are now level 20. Hey, let's go back and push my level eight at The Great Northern Wall with my new level 20 heroes. People will just coast through 75% of the campaign with level 20s. While many do already with guildmates, friends..ect...I don't think we should add to the problem.

/not signed

Curse You · Dec 06, 2006, 06:40 AM // 06:40

Two words: Wurm Farming.

If some of your heroes are still low level by the time you reach the Desolation, just take them out into Joko's Domain from Bone Palace and start killing things. Because they're inside a wurm, the low level heroes have the same armour, health energy and skills as everyone else. How else do you think I got all my necro's heroes to be level 20?

kincaid · Dec 06, 2006, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Hi,

although I wouldn't care of the LVL of heroes, my general idea was mainly based on Heroes availability itself.

For now, with these limitations, I can in fast way get around it - startup in Ascalon, run towards Yak's Bend, then, run to Lion's Arch. Make simple quests, grab Olias (and this quest is possible to make even with henchies - took me about 40 seconds with LVL7 elementalist), go outside Lion's, talk to Mhenlo, travel to Cantha. Grab Zenmai. Make "Sunspears in Kryta", travel to Kamadan. Startup few quests, and get most of needed Heroes (I'm not talking about those, who appear later in the game), but in 1 hour of playing, the heroes are available. But making over and over again quests to grab them is boring. Definitely boring.

My idea was to bind heroes to the account, so that they're available for the characters (just alike skill for PvP). The EXP or LVL can be different for different characters and can change during gameplay. But the most essencial would be not to waste time on gaining them.

Gordon Ecker · Dec 06, 2006, 09:47 AM // 09:47

I'm not sure about Insignias, but you can salvage runes out of hero armour with a 100% success rate and no risk of damaging the armour.

Deleet · Dec 06, 2006, 12:13 PM // 12:13

The trick is to accept quest rewards with the heroes with low levels

kincaid · Dec 06, 2006, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Why is that?

Emik · Dec 06, 2006, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Coz your heores also benefit this XP gain.

On another matter... i prefer taking a low level hero into a high end place.
Did Kodonur Crossroads with my Ranger and my lvl 6 Koss...
By the time we were finished he had gained 4 levels and this without the use of scrolls.

kincaid · Dec 06, 2006, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Well, still I prefer to say I wouldn't mind different XP levels for the heroes.
The matter is, why the hack do I have to do several quests + missions in Elona, just to grab Zhed, if I made it twice with other characters?
It may be even LVL-3 if develops like to. I wouldn't mind, then - making the missions, grab the XP for him.
The tick is, he would already be available... and would save me hours oposite screen just to get it.

Gregslot · Dec 06, 2006, 03:26 PM // 15:26

i guess we have a problem then, dont we?

Series · Dec 06, 2006, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Some possible *fair* solutions to your problem:

-Make heroes account wide, however, a hero's level can not exceed your own. So if you have a level 20 koss, when equipping him on your level 3 character, he is reverted to level 3 and his attributes are lowered proportionally. Once you reach level 4, that becomes the new Hero cap, and Koss will be a level 4. Heroes that aren't higher leveled than you function as they do now (heroes really can't out level you now anyway, so the same mechanic is in play).

-Allow heroes to use the PvP Equipment Panel. This would be a controversial change but it would be fair... Heroes can use any skill you unlock, why not any weapon upgrades you unlock? So yes, you would have to put effort into leveling them, however, you wouldn't have to spend gold on it. Think about it this way... heroes pick up their share of the loot... this could be symbolic for them "buying their own gear".

-Make hero setups account wide, but not account wide themselves. For example, once you recruit Olias, he has that Minion Master build you gave him on your alt, he has that uber gold staff, he has the bloodstained insignia. However, he is only a level 15 until he gains his experience. Basically, the recruited heroes have the same skills and equipment they have on your alts, but are still on their starting level and still require recruitment.

I don't know if any of those are good, just top of my head solutions.

kincaid · Dec 06, 2006, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series

Some possible *fair* solutions to your problem:

-Make heroes account wide, however, a hero's level can not exceed your own. So if you have a level 20 koss, when equipping him on your level 3 character, he is reverted to level 3 and his attributes are lowered proportionally. Once you reach level 4, that becomes the new Hero cap, and Koss will be a level 4. Heroes that aren't higher leveled than you function as they do now (heroes really can't out level you now anyway, so the same mechanic is in play).

-Allow heroes to use the PvP Equipment Panel. This would be a controversial change but it would be fair... Heroes can use any skill you unlock, why not any weapon upgrades you unlock? So yes, you would have to put effort into leveling them, however, you wouldn't have to spend gold on it. Think about it this way... heroes pick up their share of the loot... this could be symbolic for them "buying their own gear".

-Make hero setups account wide, but not account wide themselves. For example, once you recruit Olias, he has that Minion Master build you gave him on your alt, he has that uber gold staff, he has the bloodstained insignia. However, he is only a level 15 until he gains his experience. Basically, the recruited heroes have the same skills and equipment they have on your alts, but are still on their starting level and still require recruitment.

I don't know if any of those are good, just top of my head solutions.

Hi, maybe these were quick ideas, but would definitely do the trick, as from my side. The heroes would be available for all characters, and even with lowered XP, I wouldn't mind.

The equipment issue is, as I see it, divided for now. Heroes can use the skills You unlock, but not the items. Doesn't it sound a bit strange? IT's just alike breakfast - You get bread, but not the butter...

So if the heroes would be bind to the account, despite of other limitations like the ones You proposed (which also sound logically), the henchies would still be in use, so hard work of creating them wouldn't be a waste of time. The heroes were a big breakdown in the whole gameplay, but why to only change the top of the iceberg, instead of taking care of its whole?

Series · Dec 06, 2006, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Even though it is a good idea to make a change to the hero system IMO, don't expect to get much support... there is a lot of opposition:

-People who miss the old days when you had to group with other people to accomplish things (sure, there were henchman, but they were much more limited) so any hero buff would be against what they stand for.
-People who use mostly/all PvP-only characters (as they already have account-based heroes, so this gives them no benefit)
-People who have money flowing out of their you-know-what and already equipped all of their heroes with greens.
-People who make the argument "you don't need it to beat the game".
-People who spent their time leveling every hero to 20 on every alt they have and don't want other people to have it "easy".
-People who make the argument "having level 20 heroes from the start would ruin the game"
-People with only one PvE character.
-People who say "you get things easy enough as it is"

So really, it would be tough getting support for these ideas...

Thomas.knbk · Dec 06, 2006, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series

-People who miss the old days when you had to group with other people to accomplish things (sure, there were henchman, but they were much more limited) so any hero buff would be against what they stand for.
-People who use mostly/all PvP-only characters (as they already have account-based heroes, so this gives them no benefit)
-People who have money flowing out of their you-know-what and already equipped all of their heroes with greens.
-People who make the argument "you don't need it to beat the game".
-People who spent their time leveling every hero to 20 on every alt they have and don't want other people to have it "easy".
-People who make the argument "having level 20 heroes from the start would ruin the game"
-People with only one PvE character.
-People who say "you get things easy enough as it is"

So really, it would be tough getting support for these ideas...

Summing up all arguments against this sure makes you look smart, exept for that they're all VALID arguments
It would totally mess up the storyline, and I don't really see the point to it.

kincaid · Dec 07, 2006, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Summing up all arguments against this sure makes you look smart, exept for that they're all VALID arguments
It would totally mess up the storyline, and I don't really see the point to it.

Ho, ho, ho -> hold on.
Valid arguments? So, as You see it, valid argument would be "because Iraq is at war". Come on, now You're oposing that You're smart.
If You'd read more carefully, You'd notice, that we came to the idea, that heroes could be available for all characters, but lower-leveled depending on the character XP. Would it mess the storyline? How? By gaining the heroes already available in the countryside? Neither think so.

Also, who would tell anyone, that quest/mission/leveling.whatever is easy, if heroes would be equal or lower leveled than the character himself? They'd act alike henchies, with one very strong change - You'd be able to steer them instead of looking on the screen and calling names all the house hardware.

Also - who'd suggest, that gaming with heroes would break the real-layers-cooperation? You already got limitations: You can have up to 3 heroes at 1 time. So it would mainly affect only Ascalon and nearest land, in a very narrow overlook.

As in previous message was written, I disagree mostly. Wouldn't it minf people playing only PvP? No. So they wouldn't even see the change. Would it intact people playing 1 character? Nope. They wouldn't see any change.
So as I see it - no problem. But this change would help thousands of players all around the world, while the rest of them, would't even see any difference.

And leaving the issue claiming, that the arguments are valid, makes me remember a situation in a dialogue:

-Can it be done?
-No!
-Why?
-Because "not"!

----- EOT