Curse

freekedoutfish · Dec 05, 2006, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

Try reading my post again then youll see how pointless and far of the mark your response was.

Instead of trying to rip apart others suggestions why not actually come up with some or read them properly first.

Seriiosly you just dont seem to be getting the point.

I get your point. You dont want to forced to have a hero in your team, so you can make your "perfect" party. You dont like having your party compromised by one little Hero who isnt doing any harm and if used properly is an asset.

I appreciate that you might want to use that ONE space for another human being, because obviously 7 other spaces arent enough.

But asking for the entire system to be turned on its head because your loosing one space in your team is unsrealistic.

Others, like myself, like the Heroes and like the way they work with the missions. Its just the way Nightfall works, and it doesnt do anyone any harm, as youve proven by the fact youve completed the game.

So I dont why its worth changing the entire mechanism when it works fine.

I went on and on and on about NPCs because they would be the only alternative. A bad one.

Other then that, it would require re-writing the entire missions structure.

I just dont see where the thread is going, because the request is unrealistic.

Im sure your reasons are fine and solid and based in fact. But completely changing the game in such a way wont be.

Carth` · Dec 05, 2006, 04:00 PM // 16:00

I don't call level 2 Koss that dies 6 times and has a resurrect signet used on him 6 times until none are left, then stays dead an asset.

In the missions that require a hero I just have to order the hero to wait at the start, and play with 7.

freekedoutfish · Dec 05, 2006, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth`

I don't call level 2 Koss that dies 6 times and has a resurrect signet used on him 6 times until none are left, then stays dead an asset.

In the missions that require a hero I just have to order the hero to wait at the start, and play with 7.

Not meaning this in a bad way, but you seem to have missed a point somewhere.

I said heroes are assets.... if you use lvl them up and use them properly.

You cant really say your Koss is lvl 2 and then complain that he isnt an asset.

I assume your in a high end area and you havent bothered to lvl him up and then suddenly decide to get him out to use and realise "oh wait... darn.... I didnt lvl him"!

Which is part of my point. If people wont lvl their heroes and turn them into assets, then you cant really make any comment about whether their usefull or not.

I lvld all mine up relatively fast and I found most to be assets. Especially the monks and warriors.

But again, its all down to the user and how they choose to play with them.

Im starting to repeat myself now, so im leaving this be.

I understand most peoples views about not wanting a hero force into your team. But you cant comment on them being useless if you dont train them up and actually make them usefull.

Thats my end of it. Ive said more then enough and no doubt im annoying people.

Enjoy.

aron searle · Dec 05, 2006, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

I get your point. You dont want to forced to have a hero in your team, so you can make your "perfect" party. You dont like having your party compromised by one little Hero who isnt doing any harm and if used properly is an asset.

your delibratly twisting what im saying and ignoring points.

Quote:

I appreciate that you might want to use that ONE space for another human being, because obviously 7 other spaces arent enough.

Excuse me for wanting to play with my guild team. I cant be arsed to list the other points AGAIN.

Quote:

But asking for the entire system to be turned on its head because your loosing one space in your team is unsrealistic.

And not what im asking for mr clueless.

Quote:

Others, like myself, like the Heroes and like the way they work with the missions. Its just the way Nightfall works, and it doesnt do anyone any harm, as youve proven by the fact youve completed the game.

Yes it works, im suggesting improvements which you havnt been able to come up with a valid counter for so have ignored.

Quote:

So I dont why its worth changing the entire mechanism when it works fine.

I dont know either, but then i didnt ask for it :/

Quote:

I went on and on and on about NPCs because they would be the only alternative. A bad one.

Even though i listed alternatives other than that, WTF.

Quote:

I just dont see where the thread is going, because the request is unrealistic.

Ok lets summerize

1. Its annoying having to level them

You say, well level them (we say we dont want to level them just for a mission and not use them again).
Or you say, flag them to stay out the way (I say, why not just make them usefull otherwise dosnt it seem abit silly to just have them stand out the way, dosnt really fit in with the story). Just because i can do ith with a level 4 koss, dosnt mean i dont want it changed. 1 suggestion previosly mentioned is auto leveling to your level, and that was just 1 suggestion before you try counter it.

2. Its annoying having to take them at all when you want 8 people (which happens with my guild a fair bit)

You say, that the alternative is to make them NPCS and go on about how useless they are (I say there are other methods, you ignore those suggestions and repeat how useless NPCS are). Also you just get sarcastic about it, sorry i want to play with my guildee over an NPC, its guild wars not AI wars. Anyway 1 suggestion is to make it party size of 9 (rather than tag them as an npc), yes its no big issue, but like i said i dont see the harm in improving it.

Quote:

Im starting to repeat myself now, so im leaving this be.

Well then respond to whats written and not what you read. basicly you cant come up with any counters so just repeat yourself, get sarcastic, and run away

AW Lore · Dec 05, 2006, 04:31 PM // 16:31

well, here is a tip to leveling heroes for those who like leveling their heroes, and if someone has said it before then apologies cus i didnt see it:

there is this mission, consulate docks, where everyone gets +80 armor and max health, you can do that mission a couple of times to level them up, the less players/henchies you take the more experience they receive, if you do this just make sure you take a heavy damage dealer to deal with the bosses, because in this mission they will deal... well, they will only tickle the bosses.

for those who dont like leveling their heroes... well, really, though luck:

Quote:

There are several ways in which Anet has chosen to use NPCs in GWs throughout all the games;

remember that line, wich is very true:
Prophecies: the ghost heroe, he had semi-useful skills, and could be left behind to keep it safe; he dies and the party loses.
Factions: we have npcs that lead us through most of the missions, they have a bigger repertoire (sp?) of skills, therefore a "bit" more useful than the ghosts, but the team still fails if they die.
Nightfall: the required "npc" is now a member of the party, therefore the only way to fail a mission is by a party wipe out, and the few missions where there is an npc to lead/follow, they are usually like untouchable, team bodyblockers (cough kormir cough).

i remember the threads asking to make togo/mhenlo members of the party screen so that party skills could affect them, including res. also some were asking for the removal of these npcs because they greatly affected the outcome of those missions, did ANet remove those npcs? no
will ANet remove the requirements of the heroes in certain missions/quests? most likely no.
will ANet stop using this method in the next chapter? most likely yes.

so asking ANet to remove the requirements for this chapter probably wont do nothing, as they are coded in and removing them could take more time than we can think of, but they probably are going to remove this (or at the very least think it twice) requirement on the next chapter.

SpeedyKQ · Dec 05, 2006, 05:47 PM // 17:47

/signed

For each character I have my 3 kitted-out heroes, and it is annoying to constantly swap them out.

I refuse to spend any effort or money on any but my core 3 heroes, so when I'm forced to I plug in the dead weight, treat it like a 7-man mission, and get through it. Not the end of the world, but annoying.

MithranArkanere · Dec 05, 2006, 05:53 PM // 17:53

I don't care about wich Hero I must use.

Missions are not like DoA, as long as you have at least one tanker, one damage dealer, one interrupter and a couple of healers, the rest of the party doesn't really matter much.

Crom The Pale · Dec 05, 2006, 07:52 PM // 19:52

I really can't see how one slot makes that huge an impact on any mission that the heros are required in.

Yes, I know you just dont like taking an AI over a live person, but thats part of this game. The whole concept of adding hero's would be pointless if they were never actually used. And while some do wish an option to use or not use if you never try youll never understand just how good Heros can be.

With the right skills and at the right lvl a hero can be just as effective or more so than a live player.
Don't belive me?
Try setting up a ranger hero with interupts, if you watch carefuly they can switch targets and interupt foes you never noticed were even casting.

If out of 7 live people not one of you has the required Hero lvled up and the right skills unlocked then its a good bet that adding an 8th person would make little diffence to the party.

If you don't like the primary proffesion of your Hero you can always equips skills from there secondary and they can play just about any build with some degree of sucess. I know because if tried. I had Koss using meteor shower!

You really can't expect them to undo a fundumental part of the game just because you don't wish to take the time to learn how to use your Heros!

aron searle · Dec 05, 2006, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

I really can't see how one slot makes that huge an impact on any mission that the heros are required in.

Its not about effectivness, its about wanting to take an extra friend.

Quote:

With the right skills and at the right lvl a hero can be just as effective or more so than a live player.
Don't belive me?

Thats not even being questioned, so why mention it, and again its not about effectivness its about wanting to use heros of your choice or taking a friend. The point is HAVING to invest time in CERTIAN heros you dont want to use because you want to use another hero that you have set up to be part of a build, that or use a lowbie and flag him to stand out the way.

Quote:

You really can't expect them to undo a fundumental part of the game just because you don't wish to take the time to learn how to use your Heros!

Why are so many people missing the point!

Sofonisba · Dec 05, 2006, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Someone mentioned earlier, maybe it's ANet's way of getting you interested in professions you may not have been (and get you to purchase extra slots to accommodate, etc..... why not? they want to make money). Or, maybe at the very least, get you interested in or not intimidated by professions you are unfamiliar with, for future partying. (How many people decided to make a mesmer after seeing what Norgu can do? I have no way of knowing...)

BUT I can definitely see the problem when you wish to make a team of 8 real people, but have to leave one out because of a hero req.

How about make it so that all you need is one player with the required prof? If you or a guildie is a warrior, you don't need Koss, and so on.

In the meantime, whenever a hero I don't "like" is required, I make them do something useful, such as:

*When I brought my dervish through, when I used Melonni it was as a smiter with Shield of Judgment.

*When I went to fetch Olias, I grabbed Zenmai first, handed her the Factions preorder Spiritbinder and made her A/Me with massive interrupts, got Olias on the first try even with the Lion's Arch level 10 henches.

*I've also used monk and ele heroes as mesmers (I love mesmers!).

I do not recall having to expend any real energy leveling them all, but they all reached level 20 quickly, with no scrolls, no runes, no special weapons, no insignias. Finished the game (til Gate of Madness lol) just fine. Never noticed a difference, and I see no need to invest SO much money OR time into heroes.

Once again, I see the issues with requiring a hero's presence but in my case it never has bothered me too much.

Paperfly · Dec 06, 2006, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Quote:

It can be inconvenient to level them, but I'd much rather do that than use PUGs.

Hey, that's fine.

The problem is for those of us who would prefer to use PuGs.

The power issue, as aron keeps pulling his hair out in his efforts to explain, is neither here nor there - it's about a game mechanic that does it's best to make party formation less convenient.

...And for the record, a properly hand-crafted hero team is more powerful than any PuG, no matter how organized. It's also more powerful than all but the most carefully cherry-picked guild groups (unless you're running a farming build in a known farming location). So yeah, not really the point.

kincaid · Dec 06, 2006, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent

Moron boy, I was trying to make a point

Every time that Anet puts something in the game that forces the players to actually do something to move the story along, they complain.

Gates limited movement for players who had already completed the game once on a different character, forcing them to replay the story again on all their characters. They were not allowed to run past mission areas as they were in Prophecies. And so yes, this is why people hated gates.

People dislike the Heroes for the same reason. Quests and Missions require that you do a certain thing in order to get through to the next area. Forcing people through a certain standard, so that the story comes first rather than the player's wishes on how they proceede.

Removing these types of things would allow the player complete non-linear freedom in the story. But the story isnt non-linear. And so there must be some element in the game which forces you down a certain path.

OR you have games like Prophecies, where it is possible to run yourself from Lion's Arch to Sanctum Cay. Thus completely bypassing a good 40% of the game.

And I'm not stirring up trouble, you're trying to make it look that way.

PVP people in the Prophecies era used to call for the next chapter to have no PVE side at all. They claimed the game was meant to be only PVP and should be brought back to that.

Each time someone raises a stink about how they hate the way PVE is set up to make them actually play the story, is one more comment that Anet will consider when they decide whether or not to even make another story.

I've read little bit the whole thread, and would like to drop a line about it.

1. Due to needed hero presence in some missions (and quests? don't remember) -> in my mind, it is up to make any logic into the game. Why? Some further adventures show us, that for example, You helped the cetaurs. Why? Because You've met Zhed and he had a problem. So due to free his brothers in chains, he is needed.

But generally, if I make mission, where a hero is needed, I play fairly simple. If the character is weak, I try to make one of the best builds for it (skills + skillpoints propagation). And then - if this character has got any chance to throw good skills (and gain more XP for the mission) - he goes further. Not to mention, that ALL THE TIME I GOT 3 HERO CONSOLES ON THE SCREEN, USING SKILLS INSTEAD OF THEM. This is a grant to success.

But if the hero is weak and sucks completly (like Melonni for me, or Zenmai) I use one of the greatest options for heroes - place a flag in a safe place. And the butthead hero waits at the start. Voila!

2. Gates and limitations. Well, I'm looking forward with a hopeless hassle, as maybe in the next few builds, the Tyria will gain gates. Why not? Why not to limit more and more?

I guess the developers are not good observators at all. Human race generally does not like limitations. Loves freedom. Also in the computer world of electronic games. The more freedom the game offers, the bigger crowd of fans it claims.

I really HATE any discussions about equalizing GW to other games on the market, with alike gameset and rules. I hate it. But only one word is worth to whisper: why does WoW gain milions of players? Think about limits and summarize the whole idea.

In my mind, the closed gates and conditional locations are mind-mistakes. Instead of explorable world-game, which is huge detailed and makes You feel to be a community member, it just kills the total feeling.

From my side and life experiences - the more limitation, the more dissatisfaction from the persons...

Carth` · Dec 06, 2006, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Not meaning this in a bad way, but you seem to have missed a point somewhere.

I said heroes are assets.... if you use lvl them up and use them properly.

You cant really say your Koss is lvl 2 and then complain that he isnt an asset.

I assume your in a high end area and you havent bothered to lvl him up and then suddenly decide to get him out to use and realise "oh wait... darn.... I didnt lvl him"!

Well, I got given a level 2 Koss when I was level 20 and all the enemies were level 16-24. I didn't use him for THIS reason. It's not a case of me being negligent and deciding not to use him, it's a case of him being level 2 and me and the henchmen and the enemies being level 20. In that situation, given the choice between level 2 Koss and level 20 Devona, I choose Devona. Until of course I get to one of the damn missions or quests that forces me to take him. And that is the situation where he is just a burden that has to be left at the start or left dead, because in no way can he help.

I could take the time to level him up, but I did that on the first 2 characters that entered NF. This is my 3rd character entering NF, and I am sick of needy heroes.

Crom The Pale · Dec 06, 2006, 07:24 PM // 19:24

We are not missing the point.

People have listed 3 problems here.

1: You would like to have a team of 8 live people and not 7 + 1Hero.
2: You do not wish to be forced to use a Hero you dont like
3: You do not wish to be forced to take time to lvl up your Heros

Answers

1: If you are saying that youve always got 8 people that are on at the same time and always wish to do the same missions and quests at the same time, thats something to be really proud of. While there is never going to be a way around having Heros in the missions I would suggest you split into two teams and make some new friends.

2: This is Anets way of introducing people to proffesions they dont normaly use, just set there secondary to one you know if you cant manage there primary.

3: Yes having a lvl 2 Koss next to my lvl 20 war is a problem. However Heros lvl up increadibly fast. If you simply choose not to lvl them because you dont want to use them then youve no one to blame but yourself when they are a requirement for Nightfall.

Most of the people complaining about the lvl of the heros are bringing a Tyrian or Canthan char to Elona with the intention of rushing through all the missions to get to the end. If you take some time to do the quests on the island before you go to the mainland youll find heros are at a much higher lvl and can be of use in the required missions. You also have the option of taking them to Tyria or Cantha and running them through a few quick and easy missions there to lvl them up long before you need to use them in any mission.

What it all boils down to is time. If you take your time and work with your Heros they will benifit you in the long run. If your in too much of a hurry youll pay the price when its time to use them.

Evilsod · Dec 06, 2006, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Freeked, what the hell are you talking about?

Quote:

You have NPCs who are considerate enough to walk ahead, but stop if you dont follow, or they stop infront of mobs, but still dont have the sense to walk back if they approach. You have to heal them again. But then you have to stand there waiting for when THEY choose to move on.

Only 2 NPC's i can remember has thing problem. 1 is that f*cking retarded Dervish hero for the Floodplains mission (forgot its name). Who the first time i played it leeroyed into a group of Kournans before i saw her even moving and died. The other is the even more retarded Forgotten Keeper guy in the quest in the Realm of Torment who just moves slowly forwards regardless of how many enemies are in the way.

As for the other NPCs im thinking of. We have Palawa Joko who never gets attack or damaged from any enemy and stops when your not near enough. And Kormir (You know, the 1 i've been mentioning they should be changed to) who just follows around doing practically nothing, never causing agro.

Quote:

1: If you are saying that youve always got 8 people that are on at the same time and always wish to do the same missions and quests at the same time, thats something to be really proud of. While there is never going to be a way around having Heros in the missions I would suggest you split into two teams and make some new friends.

Sorry but are you taking stupid lessons? So far i haven't found a single use for Melonni AT ALL. I'm not a big fan of the Dervish as it is anyway. If as a guild/alliance we have people online who not only need the mission but are willing to help on it i'd rather not have to struggle through the mission because instead of bringing an 8th player who is willing to help with a useful char we get lumped with the useless bint that is Melonni. As half the people in this thread have said, Pugs are the most useless methods of getting through some missions ever, why would we split up and form what is essentially 2 pugs when we decided to do it as a guild?

Quote:

2: This is Anets way of introducing people to proffesions they dont normaly use, just set there secondary to one you know if you cant manage there primary.

Introducing people to professions they don't normally use? Sorry but not everyone who plays is a wammo who refuses to believe a Mesmer can do something. Speaking of which, where is the Norgu req mission exactly? Don't have 1... Yeah they're definatly trying to introduce people to new professions. A great way to do that would be forcing them to use under leveled, under equipped heros because they don't want to use them. Lets create as much prejudice as we can.

Quote:

3: Yes having a lvl 2 Koss next to my lvl 20 war is a problem. However Heros lvl up increadibly fast. If you simply choose not to lvl them because you dont want to use them then youve no one to blame but yourself when they are a requirement for Nightfall.

Heros don't level up incredibly fast if they are DEAD. Which surprisingly happens quite alot to low level heros in high level areas. And if you didn't notice the entire point of this thread is to NOT make them a req for Nightfall. Not only is it spoiling team play its spoiling solo play too.

kincaid · Dec 07, 2006, 12:43 AM // 00:43

This is true. Heroes die like flies - pretty quick after any futher movement.
What Crom had written is also partly true - if You spend some time on the 'noob island', the heroes lvl themselves up and You get a junkyard team on the continent.
But there is only one leak. What if I play Tyria character, who does not have any opportunity to struggle around in missions or so on the 'noob island'? I didn't test it by myself, maybe there is some sort of the way. But as I know ArenaNet, there is definitely more limitations and definitely less quests to make. Of course, if there is any way to get into the island by a normal way from the beginning (not for example after summoning Sunspear Sanctuary).

So, what is left for now, is to place a flag for Koss, cheer him "Run, Kross, run!!!" and get benefits from watching Forrest Gump actions combined with range attacks & res from Your side...

Crom The Pale · Dec 07, 2006, 08:17 AM // 08:17

There are quests and two missions on the newb island for you to lvl up your new heros. You also have the option of taking them back to your primary campain and lvling them there with the appropriate lvl missions.

They are a part of this game and are not going to be removed, we are not missing your argument, we just are trying to help you find a solution that works for you.

If you think that Dervishs arnt usefull then youve just never taken the time to read over there skills and fully explore them. They can out tank a war, have better self healing than a monk and can deal huge amounts of damage to both groups and individuals.

If you truely hate using Heros then my only advise would be to stay out of Nightfall.

They will not be removed because they should not be removed.

Nuff said!

Queenie · Dec 07, 2006, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by explodemyheart

I question whether you actually paid attention throughout your trek across Nightfall.

Each and every mission requires a certain hero, save for Tihark Orchard, Dasha Vestibule (they just give you Goren as an ally to keep alive), Gate of Madness and Abaddon's Gate. That's 16/20 missions that require you to bring a certain hero.

Chahbek Village - Koss
Jokanur Diggings - Melonni
Blacktide Den - Tahlkora
Consulate Docks - Dunkoro
Venta Cemetery - Koss
Kodonur Crossroads - Zhed Shadowhoof
Rilohn Refuge - Master of Whispers
Pogahn Passage - Margrid the Sly
Moddok Crevice - Dunkoro
Tihark Orchard - Solo
Dzagonur Bastion - Master of Whispers
Dasha Vestibule - None
Grand Court of Sebelkeh - Tahlkora
Jennur's Horde - Koss
Nundu Bay - Melonni
Gate of Desolation - Zhed Shadowhoof
Ruins of Morah - General Morgahn
Gate of Pain - Dunkoro
Gate of Madness - None
Abaddon's Gate - None

Dasha Vestibule - Magrid The sly

jummeth · Dec 07, 2006, 09:43 AM // 09:43

My main complaint is aligned with the OP's Heros kinda ruined NF in the sense that it exacerbated the "hench-the-whole-game" syndrome.

GW is no longer a multiplayer anymore. You could quite easily run it offline. Then you wouldn't have any crappy err7s etc etc.

Even PvP has the term 'Heroways' now....

When I first read about heros these were my fears, and the fears have come true. The fact that, most people will either Guild it through or Hench it through. There isn't even an attempt at making parties anymore. Again, forcing a hero onto a slot means that if you had a party of 8 people running through the game, you would have to kick one out at certain time.

Lose.

geekling · Dec 07, 2006, 10:16 AM // 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Sorry but are you taking stupid lessons? So far i haven't found a single use for Melonni AT ALL. I'm not a big fan of the Dervish as it is anyway. If as a guild/alliance we have people online who not only need the mission but are willing to help on it i'd rather not have to struggle through the mission because instead of bringing an 8th player who is willing to help with a useful char we get lumped with the useless bint that is Melonni. As half the people in this thread have said, Pugs are the most useless methods of getting through some missions ever, why would we split up and form what is essentially 2 pugs when we decided to do it as a guild?

I think you're missing the point. While I can understand that you're confused about this, since the previous chapters the party size have been 8.

Party size for missions in Nightfall is 7 + one spot for an NPC that in previous chapters would be listed as an ally.
The smaller partysize is the pay-off for having that NPC being ressurectable, and affected by partywide skills. Not to mention, you get to choose who's version of this particular NPC your party brings and how it is equipped. Plus it is an NPC you can control.
The smaller party size is the pay off not have to babysit a leeroy jenkinsing prince Rurik and the if he gets himself killed the mission fails.

It's really the same situation as if in your guild/alliance there were 9 people that wanted to join up and do a mission in proph or factions. You have one more than the max party limit, so unfortunably one can not come this time around.

It might not be fair on that 9'th player. But there is a limit to party sizes for a reason.