Curse

Aki Soyokaze · Dec 12, 2006, 12:18 PM // 12:18

/notsigned

The fact that SF now forces you to think about elementalists as a threat because they can use a skill that can do major damage isn't reason enough to nerf the skill. There are plenty of skills out there that can help you to reduce the threat that is posed by SF. And the fact that this skill makes GW go on 'easy' mode, as you say, just underlines how anemic the elementalist skill set has been. The change in the cost of runes does not indicate how over-powered a skill is, but rather it simply reinforces how under-utilized the elementalist is/was.

The whole point of having an elementalist in the party is to have someone who can inflict massive damage on one or more targets. But Guild Wars is not in easy mode just becuase you figured out that giving heros SF makes the game go faster. It's rather the opposite. It's the fact that you figured out that with the right skills/people Guild Wars is just plain easy. And with the right skill set and team configuration the game isn't that much of a challenge. And while yes you can argue that putting 3 elementalists with SF on each of them can allow you to roll through groups; you can also argue that 3 of most of the other profs. can allow you to also plow through just about anything aswell.

This is an elite skill and it should be a skill that would be wanted in an elementalist build. Skills, in general, shouldn't be nerfed because people are now forced to think of a counter to that skill or because people want a 'challenge' in the game but choose to find the cheapest and easiest way to win.

Thallandor · Dec 12, 2006, 12:24 PM // 12:24

So we nerfed Paragons for reasons of game balancing for PvP purposes and now we are doing to nerf SF (look up guildwiki for SF PvP counter) for purely PvE purposes?

Since when did PvE affected anyone's gaming experience?

Does having an effective means to kill mobs in PvE worsen anyone's enjoyment of the game?

Perhaps the OP would like to play the gimped Ritualist in NF for more of a game challenge or simply have only 1 point in Fire attribute while having SF as the Elite on his bar to increase the challenge of the game.

And since this is a suggestion:

/NOT SIGNED

________________________________________________
Each time Anet nerfs a skill a kitten dies from starvation. Save the Kittens!
Say NO to Nerfism

Sophitia Leafblade · Dec 12, 2006, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series

S.F. essentially does 147 fire damage every 2 seconds to target foe AND nearby foes (once you take burning into account). I'm not sure any other elites are quite that powerful... fortunately.

perhaps but if u spread out then it drops in effectiveness massivly. No way is Sf overpowered. Eles wear meant to be the Big hitters of the game, thats why they got squishy armour. If u use 3 heros and me with 1 spike skill, im pretty sure i could make gw insanly easy to. Like say Barraging with a Nec/Para in Vizuah Square, the enemys die faster than u can target them.

And as for the Barrage rangers Vs the SF Eles, ur right it would be over super fast, The eles would get interupted and dazed and then get wiped out

so 100%

/Not signed

Antheus · Dec 12, 2006, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

One final thing.

If you want to see visually how broken searing flames is, go to your local rune trader and look up superior fire magic. Before nightfall it was 100g.

And bloodstained insignia is 13k. Wouldn't that make MM even more broken?

SF is powerful. Go against djin, and you'll see just how.

Then bring an anti-caster mesmer. And you'll see the same djin weeping in horror. The irony here is, that against casters, I kill a group of 3 bunched up casters faster with mesmer than with SF eles.

The only reason why SF comes through as easy, is that like most other PvE aspects, you're dealing with little to no intelligent opposition.

Same thing once went for touchers. There simply was no skill that could counter them. At best, there were hexes that passively hurt them. Today, touchers get hardly mentioned. And it has nothing to do with Can't touch this.

The best and most viable counter was kiting. So players learned how to kite. With SF, the most viable counters are: spreading out, interruption, e-denial, anti-caster attacks and hexes.

SF is dangerous only when repeated multiple times. A single SF/ele does rather minimal damage. It's SF,GG,SF, and then next SF will not do damage anymore if you missed even a bit on activation, since burning stopped in between. So the true power comes from multiple activation during the 7 seconds of burning. Due to timings, that is only abusable when multiple SF spammers are around. But a single ele will only deal damage from GG and second SF, + 7 seconds of burning.

The gimmick echo/SF/mimicry build that apeared is probably the most powerful SF build possible. It's powerful. Very much even. But the most important thing to realize here is that SF is completely harmless if you're not burning. In addition, SF will deplete you of energy really fast, a single enchant removal is enough to burng through energy in 4-5 casts (2 SF that deal damage + 2 that cause burning).

Mobs in PvE are stupid. They always bunch up closely together, there is no condition (or even much hex removal) that I can remember, so simply, they are weak against SF, just like they are weak against VwK and SS.

And that's where the problem apears. If mobs took precautions against SF, then a huge outcry would once apear over how AI is stupid, since they scatter and run all over the place. But regardless of everything, SF is extremly dangerous when used concurrently by more than one player. It has huge spiking potential.

And lastly, NF PvE is easy. It's one of the easiest campaigns for just about any class, since the mobs you face are almost without exception well balanced groups.

The two examples you gave are also pre-Realm of Torment missions. How well does 3 SF spam work in RoT? I've long ago opted for curses/blood necro and 2 r/p heroes for that area, since it's so much more effective. It might be just me though.

S_Serpent · Dec 12, 2006, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Not Signed

my guildies and I have several builds in HA that steamroll SF parties :P
and are still winning against most builds, just like SF can be countered, anything else can be countered too! So its not unbalanced!

In PVE side, if you want a challenge don't take ele heroes with SF and don't bring it yourself :P
Play it the way you want it, and don't nag about how others wanna play PVE - you have the control over PVE yourself!

lishi · Dec 12, 2006, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

And bloodstained insignia is 13k. Wouldn't that make MM even more broken?

SF is powerful. Go against djin, and you'll see just how.

Then bring an anti-caster mesmer. And you'll see the same djin weeping in horror. The irony here is, that against casters, I kill a group of 3 bunched up casters faster with mesmer than with SF eles.

The only reason why SF comes through as easy, is that like most other PvE aspects, you're dealing with little to no intelligent opposition.

Same thing once went for touchers. There simply was no skill that could counter them. At best, there were hexes that passively hurt them. Today, touchers get hardly mentioned. And it has nothing to do with Can't touch this.

The best and most viable counter was kiting. So players learned how to kite. With SF, the most viable counters are: spreading out, interruption, e-denial, anti-caster attacks and hexes.

SF is dangerous only when repeated multiple times. A single SF/ele does rather minimal damage. It's SF,GG,SF, and then next SF will not do damage anymore if you missed even a bit on activation, since burning stopped in between. So the true power comes from multiple activation during the 7 seconds of burning. Due to timings, that is only abusable when multiple SF spammers are around. But a single ele will only deal damage from GG and second SF, + 7 seconds of burning.

The gimmick echo/SF/mimicry build that apeared is probably the most powerful SF build possible. It's powerful. Very much even. But the most important thing to realize here is that SF is completely harmless if you're not burning. In addition, SF will deplete you of energy really fast, a single enchant removal is enough to burng through energy in 4-5 casts (2 SF that deal damage + 2 that cause burning).

Mobs in PvE are stupid. They always bunch up closely together, there is no condition (or even much hex removal) that I can remember, so simply, they are weak against SF, just like they are weak against VwK and SS.

And that's where the problem apears. If mobs took precautions against SF, then a huge outcry would once apear over how AI is stupid, since they scatter and run all over the place. But regardless of everything, SF is extremly dangerous when used concurrently by more than one player. It has huge spiking potential.

And lastly, NF PvE is easy. It's one of the easiest campaigns for just about any class, since the mobs you face are almost without exception well balanced groups.

The two examples you gave are also pre-Realm of Torment missions. How well does 3 SF spam work in RoT? I've long ago opted for curses/blood necro and 2 r/p heroes for that area, since it's so much more effective. It might be just me though.

MM is overpowered.

given some time to set up they give big meat shield and big damage.

lishi · Dec 12, 2006, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thallandor

So we nerfed Paragons for reasons of game balancing for PvP purposes and now we are doing to nerf SF (look up guildwiki for SF PvP counter) for purely PvE purposes?

Since when did PvE affected anyone's gaming experience?

Does having an effective means to kill mobs in PvE worsen anyone's enjoyment of the game?

Perhaps the OP would like to play the gimped Ritualist in NF for more of a game challenge or simply have only 1 point in Fire attribute while having SF as the Elite on his bar to increase the challenge of the game.

And since this is a suggestion:

/NOT SIGNED

i read them you probably not.

Quote:

Note that Frigid Armor and Avatar of Melandru render Searing Flames harmless, as the target is unable to be set on fire.

there are many more effective counter then the ones listed on gwwiki

Aki Soyokaze · Dec 12, 2006, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

MM is overpowered.

given some time to set up they give big meat shield and big damage.

Perhaps we should just give everyone dmg. 1-1 weapons and skills that do 1 dmg. each hit and only 50 health with 10 energy. Would that be more fun?

Everything has it's advantages/disadvantages and strength/weakness in this game. The fact that the examples that you draw from are PvE based only magnifies the advantages and strengths because of the lack of intelligence that you have to face when fighting anything in PvE. If anything PvE should be made harder and more varried so that people are forced to try new builds rather than depending on the same few skills throughout most of the game.

Thallandor · Dec 12, 2006, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

there are many more effective counter then the ones listed on gwwiki

And this justify nerfing SF by? Did i say that is the only counter of which there are several that are already mentioned? Perhaps before you are quick to judge or post responses, you might like to consider what exactly is the significance of your message.

BoredJoe · Dec 12, 2006, 12:57 PM // 12:57

If I want to do massive damage in PvE i take 4 SF's. Myself and 3 hero SFs. I just change all of the secondaries to /E and load up the SF build onto them. I normally run my monk and assasin hero's as SF ele's. It really is such a no brainer at times when deciding to use SF.

My feeling is to use it as much as possible before it get's hit with the nerf bat. I liek it as it is but just a small tweak if a change happens would be nice.

Wildi · Dec 12, 2006, 01:07 PM // 13:07

ele dmg does not even ignore armor: searing flames = only 45 dmg against doa mobs, glowing gaze = 20 dmg, what about /not signed

Antheus · Dec 12, 2006, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

MM is overpowered.

given some time to set up they give big meat shield and big damage.

"Given some time..." - this is why MM isn't overpowered.

MM is overabused in PvE. Every group wants one. That, or SS. Both, powerful and useful builds. But replacing them with another class doesn't gimp the group. Far from it.

When was the last time MM represented any kind of threat in PvP? Apart from minion factories, never.

In PvE, there simply aren't any counters for MM, apart from random agro or damage spike.

For all other comments about PvE balance: Play DoA and finish it. Then complain about overpowered skills. Anything else is simply pointless. It's like saying fire storm is overpowered in pre-searing, since mobs don't run away from it. DoA as it stands is the only true test of PvE skill. And even there you can abuse certain skills, like barrier, various invinci builds, etc.

NinjaKai · Dec 12, 2006, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Only time I worried about SF in PvP is during AB. But with frigid armor searing flames just becomes a worthless skill that idiots have overused into the ground.

The Silver Star · Dec 12, 2006, 01:41 PM // 13:41

/signed, its not that it needs to be "nerfed" it needs to be BALANCED as for most people here are like "zomg they bring out 1 good ele skill an you wont a nerf?!?!?" or "omg noobs lose to searing haha i pwn it bitches i am teh pwner you nabs" Even if your not balled up going agint 4 Searing Flames is seriously overpowered, evn though i beat it, it is still overpowered and most people ehre probably play searing flames in pvp with heroes and dont want there fame farm method weakened.

Quote:

When was the last time MM represented any kind of threat in PvP?

Current FoTM heavy hex incorporates an MM.

To conclude, it needs a slight balance and heroes need to be removed from PvP.

Sarevok Thordin · Dec 12, 2006, 01:43 PM // 13:43

I say nerf it, the SF build has become the staple ele build, and soon you'll be screamed at for not using it.

HIGH damage with no exhaustion plus it sets up a quick and easy Energy MAnagement skill and allows you to cast with it's VERY quick recharge.

People have previously mentioned everything I would have.

/signed

Lavindathar · Dec 12, 2006, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Personally, I think it's overpowered. And I play with an Ele. Maybe not so the skill, but the spam-ability that needs changing. I'd up the recharge/casting time, or something.

I'm hazourding a guess, that most people who dont want it tweaked are SF ele's themselves :P

/signed

freekedoutfish · Dec 12, 2006, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Velvet Wing

Ok.. I see a lot of comments I don't really agree with.. Let me explain why

First of all, All heroes having the same elite or normal spell (let's say elite to make it interesting) and activating them at the same time does not make a game easy.. For example, when all my eles (primary and secondary) cast Master of Magic Elite (For 20 seconds, whenever you cast a Spell, you gain 0...2 Energy for each recharging Skill that does not share this Spell's attribute.) This does not mean I'll have a walk in the park.. I still need to work my behind of in order to take the baddies down, obviously

Second, a big group with a lot of AoE damage is not good building.. It is overpowered unless people know how to play the game properly (position yourself widely, bring damage reduction (prot spirit?

), disrupt casting of AoE, numerous simple solution to AoE..

And third, Nightfall to hard? Don't make me laugh.. I've seen you are experienced (with all 3 titles) but nightfall is not hard, at all... It is a cakewalk, even with a class like dervish I finished the game in a few (4 to be precise) days.. The only hard part is the gate of madness, which has been discussed endlessly on this site (and many many others

) and which is totally doable if you set your team up properly..

Fish, this is not an intended flame, I respect your contribution, but some of your comments just made no sens to me at all..

As for SF being overpowered.. It is a bit powerfull, but not to powerfull

Everything that is used in a nice combo, well organized group can make an impact, so that should lead to more major nerfing, something I am not looking forward too

BTW, its 6 titles I have.

but perhaps I should have said Nightfall is frustrating, not hard.

Ill give you a perfect example of how;

Last night I was trying to cap an elite skill, as I have all the rest from tyria and factions.

I went to find the nice boss guy, and he was surrounded by 3 griffins and about 15 Harpies. I thought "hmmmm, a bit much Anet isnt it?".

It took me an hour of dyeing and ressing, and re-starting until I realised there was a major bug.

The boss and his mob had been duplicated twice. I was having to face off against twice as much fire power and healing.

But the point is that I thought that was normal, because its Nightfall.

You expect there to be huge mobs and stupidly over-powered creatures in this one, because Anet seems to be doing this trend of throughing as much as it can at us. All in an attempt to increase the difficulty, but instead it just makes it frustrating.

Anyway.... what didnt you understand? My entire point was that SF is very similar to other spells which ele's use. If the OP has an issue with SF being over-powered, then we would have to nerf half of the skills we use.

My other point I was trying to make, is that if the OP'er is going to equip all his Heroes with the same spell, why is he surprised if that one spell does alot combined damage?

You would think that was common sense and the desired effect.

If he tried using it by ONLY by himself, then im sure he would noticed a difference. It just seems an odd post to make, when its a rather obvious result.

Symbol · Dec 12, 2006, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

S.F. essentially does 147 fire damage every 2 seconds to target foe AND nearby foes (once you take burning into account). I'm not sure any other elites are quite that powerful... fortunately.

No, no it doesn't. You get the burning OR the damage, not both. And the recycle time is 3 seconds (2 sec recharge + 1 sec cast).

Searing flames is fine.

lyra_song · Dec 12, 2006, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Its not a matter of if it will be adjusted.

Its a matter of when and how.

The arcane flames build increases the spammability of this spell even further.
(Echo + Searing Flames + Arcane mimicry of Elemental Attunement from team member)

I think its pretty obvious that SF is incredibly powerful with such little side-effects.

Crom The Pale · Dec 12, 2006, 03:41 PM // 15:41

NERFING IS NEVER THE SOLUTION!!!

The skill is powerfull, but so are many skills. Yes it has more damage than monst but then arn't elementalits supposed to do the most damage of any class?

It is easy to counter, mobs in the end of the game will chew your SF heros up fast.

The problem is truely that eles have been underpowered for the longest time. Look at meteor shower, for 25e + exahstion you get 3 knockdowns and about 180dmg on the average armored foe. Now with the new AI youll almost never hit more than 3people with this, assuming its 3sec cast time doesnt get inteupted and its got 60second rechare.

My war can knock a single target down 3 times and deal just as much damage for about 10 energy + 10 addreniline and have the skills back up and rdy to go in about 10seconds.

Elementalist have enough to worry about now with all the anti-magic skills out there, Obsidian Flesh, Shadow form, Vow of silence, Spell Breaker....

There is absolutely no reason to nerf this skill.

/UNSIGNED!