Curse

Crom The Pale · Dec 14, 2006, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Saying that pvp balance is greater than pve balance is pointless as there is NO balance in pve. In pve you face lvl28 monsters with monster only skills and mobs that outnumber you all the time.

I'm the last person to claim to be an expert at pvp but wouldnt a simple mesmer/necro destroy your invicible ele with ease?

Descrate enchants + Defile enchants + Backfire + Rend enchants + Energy Burn.....and not one of them is an elite........

The real complaint here is that people don't wish to change there favorite pvp builds to accomidate the nessary counters for this one skill.

Note ANY proff that depends on 1 or 2 skills in there skill bar can be easily owned by disabling that skill.

bhavv · Dec 14, 2006, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

The real complaint here is that people don't wish to change there favorite pvp builds to accomidate the nessary counters for this one skill.

Note ANY proff that depends on 1 or 2 skills in there skill bar can be easily owned by disabling that skill.

Thats the problem with PVP 'elitist'. The cliam to know it all and when a new skill thats nice to use in PVP (Searing Flames, Mysti Regen) Comes allong they whine and whinge like its the end of the world.

All these *NEW* skills also have *NEW* and old counters. Ok, I can go invincible with a ZB prot monk, mystic regen and essence bond in RA, but only if theres no interupt or mesmer or dazed. All these skills are so easy to counter its unbelievable that people that claim to be pro bambi-phoenix players fail to notice any other skill.

Im at rank 6, and have givven it up for a while to work towards my people know me title. I dont consider Mystic regen (Or searing flames, but thats another topic) to be overpowed at all, the only problem is that the PVP elitist are actually so noob that they refuse to use any new skills, and once their old ones stop working they pile onto these forums and start begging for a nerf.

*USE NEW SKILLS THAT COUNTER NONSCENCE BUILDS EASILLY*

Or heres a nice idea that I mentioned before - BUFF shatter storm to 5 sec recharge per enchant removed, and maybe allow it to do up to 50 damage for each one taken off (put it into domination magic).

Franco Power · Dec 14, 2006, 10:28 PM // 22:28

/SIGNED 100% SOME RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOING RETARD IN RA USING STONEFLESH AND MYSTIC REGEN AND SLIVER ARMOR JUST STANDS THERE FOREVER , NO WAY TO KILL HIM WITHOUT ENCHANTMENT REMOVAL AND ITS RETARDED!

/signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed /signed

Tony Blair · Dec 14, 2006, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Just because a skill or a combo of skills have a counter does not make them balanced.

Please stop talking about PvP like you're an expert while recommending trash like Shatterstorm, no offense. There are so many better Mesmer elites out there. Buff it to 5 seconds? Maybe it would be usable, still iffy.

Mass enchant removal kills the build sure. What mass enchant removal is useful though? Avatar of Grenth is just about all there is. Gaze of Contempt is OK in HA, where Mystic Regeneration is not an issue.

Again, move it into Mysticism to at least stop its synergy with Stoneflesh Aura. It's essentially a buff to Dervishes using it anyways.

chicks boy · Dec 14, 2006, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Yes please nerf mystic regen because eles are using it and they are overpowered. LOL yea right. Do what you want, we dont care. Nerfing is baaaaaaaaad. So Anet nerfing a lot of new skills, fiiiiine just delete dervish who cares lol.

Oh yeah /sign just because it makes me laugh

Lordhelmos · Dec 15, 2006, 02:18 AM // 02:18

I am disappointed with the narrow view on the subject of nerfing. It seems that many people have these conceptions that ALL nerfs are bad. However in a competitive game like this nerfs will always be necessary. With the sheer amount of skill Guildwars has amassed and the growing number with each expansion you can't expect Anet to perfectly balance all the skills right off the bat. With millions of players online, brilliant minds are bound to create unstoppable builds that will dominate the game. Examples of this include:

~ViMway
~Signet of Might Rediculous Annhilation
~Old IWAY
~Boonprot Monk Domination
~Paragon Holdway

These builds have been game breaking and out of the 500+ skills in guildwars, have limited players to a select few. Lets face it, those build in their overpowered state were just too good in comparison to the rest of the line-up NOT to play.

A game imbalance occurs when a skill can be abused to the point of it negatating almost every other skill in the game and forcing the players to choose a select class or handful of skills as a counter. Granted there are no way to get rid of "required" skills, such as certain monk skill like Divert, or Blessed Light.

However, when the game becomes a contest between everyone using the same builds and opposers struggling to use a handful of skills to counter it, there is a problem.

Uber-builds limit the enjoyment of the game by limiting what players can use and what they can't. What is the point of using 50 different skills in one attribute line when one dwarfs them all? *cough* Searing Flames *cough*

My OP in this thread was not a complete nerf, but a tweak to move Mystic Regeneration to Mysticism, where I believe it better belongs.

Now on Mystic Regeneration:

~The arguement against the move has been:

"Oh No! All nerfs are bad! Everything has a counter. There is so much enchantment hate in guildwars!"

~I will say yes mystic regen does have a counter. However it has a five second recharge, which is quicker than almost any rending skill in the game. Yes you CAN remove mystic regeneration, but it can be recast it just as fast. Your alternative to "countering" this skill is a full rend, and there are a select amount of full rends available that can be slotted into a build effectively. 9 regen on a caster for 20 seconds is near 360 HP, thats a lot of damn life and can shutdown a complete necromancer overload.

Are you saying we should all bring a full rend on our bars just to deal with E/D and Mo/D abusing this skill? Have you seen a Mo/D bonder yet? A stoneflesh ele is just about immune to everything BUT a full rend.

When what skill offers that much defense against over 500+ skills in the game and can only be countered by a select few (full rends) I would say there is a problem.

Just because it has a counter doesnt mean its overpowered. Yes I know I can bring Avatar of Grenth of Rend Enchantments/Gaze of Contempt to stop a X/D mystic tank. However I am uncomfortable with the idea that I am forced to play that build just because of the risk of never being able to kill a X/D without a full rend on my bar.

Mystic Regneration in the hands of an enchantment heavy caster is grossly overpowered IMO. However my OP is not a nerf of the skill. If you nerf mystic regeneration it will KILL the dervish class, and I think everyone knows this.

One arguement stated that I assume that every dervish uses mystic regeneration. I know not every dervish uses mystic regeneration but the skill is still the BEST dervish survival skill available. Dervish are already having survival problems in PvE, what do you think will happen if mystic regen is nerfed to the point of being crap?

Being in 4v4 and dealing an E/D backed by a Mo/A shield of absorption/zb monk is not fun. Do you have any idea how hard that team is to stop? Try that with a spirit spammer rt added on their side. Can we say Griefer team?

Then the arguements about enchantment hate will come and I will counter and say this is unfair because in order to stop that team im forced to resort to a select few options. One would be avatar of grenth, another a full rend, and perhaps maybe a shattering assault sin.

Being FORCED to play those select builds just to stand a chance is fair? What are you smoking? Your damn right Mystic Regen in its current state is overpowered. But I am saying the skill needs a move not a nerf to save the dervish. Nerf it and you screw an entire class, leave it as it is and you make playing options for 4v4 too rigid.

I think moving it into mysticism is a good alternative to dumbing down the Dervishes' best survival skill and making them sins with scythes. Leave it as it is and these cheap builds run rampant. And yeah just wait till you run into an E/D, MO/A, and Rt team, then you can tell me if the skill is fair or not.

Lordhelmos · Dec 15, 2006, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicks boy

Yes please nerf mystic regen because eles are using it and they are overpowered. LOL yea right. Do what you want, we dont care. Nerfing is baaaaaaaaad. So Anet nerfing a lot of new skills, fiiiiine just delete dervish who cares lol.

Oh yeah /sign just because it makes me laugh

So you say we should have kept paragon holdway in HA and let the hall turn into a pointless contest of who can cap first and become unkillable? Crying that all nerfs are bad is a shortsided view on the big picture of game balance. NERFS ARE NEEDED. But one has to decide what is going too far and what isn't. Nerfs also take time, because Anet has to wait as see how the community handles the overpowerment of a peculiar skill. Sometimes there are counters that we just can't see. However there is a point to which enough is enough and a skill is just plain broken.

Instead of saying all nerfs are bad, it would be better to find solutions and contribute builds that can stop E/D and Mo/D mystic regen abuse. When the options for countering those builds arent looking good then we know there is a problem.

As of now the only solution to stopping these invincibuilds is a full rend. I dont think forcing everyone to bring a full rend just to counter the occasionaly X/D class in 4v4 is a "balanced" solution.

«Ripskin · Dec 15, 2006, 02:32 AM // 02:32

It would only make sense to put mystic regeneration into mysticysm. And yeah, I've gotten so many of those tanks in RA. Don't mind them. I always bring my dervish with grenth and just beat the living...crap... out of them.

/signed wit a passion

«Ripskin · Dec 15, 2006, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

NERFS ARE NEEDED. But one has to decide what is going too far and what isn't.

I couldn't agree with you more... but... going and ruining my farming was more then just too far... It was a 'pisseroffer'. I cried that day. I still cry when it's like 5 am and I'm waking up (I'm so weird) to get on and finding nothing convenient to farm other then bosses and weak creatures that don't drop anything good.

Lordhelmos · Dec 15, 2006, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

Saying that pvp balance is greater than pve balance is pointless as there is NO balance in pve. In pve you face lvl28 monsters with monster only skills and mobs that outnumber you all the time.

I'm the last person to claim to be an expert at pvp but wouldnt a simple mesmer/necro destroy your invicible ele with ease?

Descrate enchants + Defile enchants + Backfire + Rend enchants + Energy Burn.....and not one of them is an elite........

The real complaint here is that people don't wish to change there favorite pvp builds to accomidate the nessary counters for this one skill.

Note ANY proff that depends on 1 or 2 skills in there skill bar can be easily owned by disabling that skill.

So we can make it to 9 wins inTA and lose to a Mo/A Zb and E/D party because we don't have a N/Me or Avatar of Grenth derv in our party? Or does that make us all noobs if we dont play those classes just to counter one build that shouldnt be as strong as it is?

Lordhelmos · Dec 15, 2006, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Before further discussion on this topic:

An E/D stoneflesh ganker killed the guildlord solo in a high end GVG match. In a situation like that, where the stoneflesh build was showcased as being obviously overpowered, don't think that something wont be done about Mystic Regen.

Mystic Regen
Searing Flames
Shield of Absorption
Blinding Surge
Rampage as One

Are all on the chopping block. There will be nerfs... big nerfs, and I promise you the entire metagame will be flipped upside down after this season.

The OP isn't a nerf, because that is one of the two options Anet will use to remedy the problems of this skill. The other is a move to mysticism.

Alot of the reason why I support this move is not only to stop abuse, but in reality it is a petition to save the dervish class. If the casting cost or the scale of mystic regen is nerfed too hard, the dervish will be dead melee on the front line.

bhavv · Dec 15, 2006, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

So we can make it to 9 wins inTA and lose to a Mo/A Zb and E/D party because we don't have a N/Me or Avatar of Grenth derv in our party? Or does that make us all noobs if we dont play those classes just to counter one build that shouldnt be as strong as it is?

FFS seriously ALL you need to counter a monk or earth elementalist with Mystic Regen is a MESMER, you dont even need a single enchant removal; diversion, a single interupt, and backfire will have them killed.

EVERYONE should use a mesmer in TA if they want to win lots of consecs, Its what I do.

Mystic regeneration isnt overpowered, you dont need heavy or specific counters to counter it, you can counter it with a smimple migrane or bowerblock mesmer.

Mystic regen has a 5 sec recharge so what??? Healing breeze has a 2 sec recharge and an instant +9 regen, if you rend a targets enchantments they need to cast 3 again for mystic regen to be the same as one healing breeze!!!!

And for your info, im playing a shatterstorm/spiritual pain/unatural sig/diversion/backfire/empathy/lesser energy mesmer in RA and TA and it tears through anything with a good team. Shatterstorm is a great elite.

Priest Of Sin · Dec 15, 2006, 04:43 AM // 04:43

I gotta say it... I JUST GOTTA SAY IT...

Chillblains FOR THE MOTHERF****** WIN!
EAT IT INVINCIBLE STONEFLESH MONK!

Moving on...

Without an enchant removal character, the invinci-eles can wreak havok on TA and RA. Plus I know that i'd rather not split my points 5 ways on my Dervish... 2-3 is awesome.

/signed

bhavv · Dec 15, 2006, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordhelmos

Before further discussion on this topic:

An E/D stoneflesh ganker killed the guildlord solo in a high end GVG match. In a situation like that, where the stoneflesh build was showcased as being obviously overpowered, don't think that something wont be done about Mystic Regen.

[/b]

Again, its NOT mystic regen thats overpowered its Stoneflesh Aura.

Crom The Pale · Dec 15, 2006, 08:55 AM // 08:55

All your example showed is that they'll likely be adding a mesmer to the bodyguards near the guild lord.

Several people have said they dont wish to be FORCED to carry the counters for this build. That its wrong to need to be ready to face just this one build, and yet dont you bring builds designed to deal with monks? Tanks? Necros?

The counters to this build are not skills that are useless vs every other proff or build.

Most of the top ranked guilds have used Mesemrs and Necros in there builds from time to time so ive little doubt that they will incorporate the needed counters with little problem.

Anet knew how this skill could be used when they build it, they most likely created it for more than just a great heal for Dervishes, they might have felt it would be a great way to build more intrest in Mesmers who would be extremely powerful at dealing with enchantment based builds.

And while a mesmer might be the best way to counter this build its certainly not the only way.

Hech a Warrior could interupt the other enchants that the ele needs to power Mystic Regen to +9 and leave him with only +3 healing, a poor mans Mending enchant....

Stone flesh is a 2 second cast, a war with Skull Crack could easily interupt this and daze the ele then unload a tonne of damage that would end the problem very fast.

A Ranger with Broad head arrow could do the same and Assasins too for that matter.

By its self Mystic Regen is nothing...if you cant take it down then take out the other enchants and then its of little concern.

The problem here is not with the Skill, but with the skill of the Players.

Tony Blair · Dec 15, 2006, 12:35 PM // 12:35

I guess it's balanced guys, just use Shatterstorm and Skull Crack. /sarcasm

I like how you say Backfire counters the build. It takes a special person to cast through Backfire. Then again I guess people are basing their experiences off RA, the lowest tier of PvP (AB is practically PvE).

Priest of Sin is right, Chillblains is gg.

glountz · Dec 15, 2006, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

All your example showed is that they'll likely be adding a mesmer to the bodyguards near the guild lord.

Several people have said they dont wish to be FORCED to carry the counters for this build. That its wrong to need to be ready to face just this one build, and yet dont you bring builds designed to deal with monks? Tanks? Necros?

The counters to this build are not skills that are useless vs every other proff or build.

Most of the top ranked guilds have used Mesemrs and Necros in there builds from time to time so ive little doubt that they will incorporate the needed counters with little problem.

Anet knew how this skill could be used when they build it, they most likely created it for more than just a great heal for Dervishes, they might have felt it would be a great way to build more intrest in Mesmers who would be extremely powerful at dealing with enchantment based builds.

And while a mesmer might be the best way to counter this build its certainly not the only way.

Hech a Warrior could interupt the other enchants that the ele needs to power Mystic Regen to +9 and leave him with only +3 healing, a poor mans Mending enchant....

Stone flesh is a 2 second cast, a war with Skull Crack could easily interupt this and daze the ele then unload a tonne of damage that would end the problem very fast.

A Ranger with Broad head arrow could do the same and Assasins too for that matter.

By its self Mystic Regen is nothing...if you cant take it down then take out the other enchants and then its of little concern.

The problem here is not with the Skill, but with the skill of the Players.

I think you don't really understand the meaning of balance. This skill is unbalanced on enchant heavy casters, reducing the degen to nothing and having a duration that far exceed any other regen spell.
Saying that a skill has a counter that does not mean everything is balanced. Heck, saying this, guild wars is balanced as each skill has a counter in some way.
If you had this skill:

"Can't Nerf This"
Cast 60 Energy 40 Recharge 120
Spell. You win the current battle.

Following your reasonning this skill would be balanced because counterable. But it is obviously not.

Mystic regeneration is highly powerful on everything else than a dervish, as most dervish enchants need to end to take effect. And I don't speak about the stoneflesh aura ele solo only, here. I have a monk bonder build with MR that is bringing a lot more gladie points than it should for such a build.
Mesmers are not the "best way" to deal with mystic R, period. They have no cheap or non elite massive disenchantment, only one-shot disenchants that will recharge way longer than MR.
A Curse Necro or a Grenth dervish is the solution. But Curse and Grenth does not fit in every build. Not to mention that your MR enchant caster is not alone and can rely on his teammates. What if your Rend enchants get interrupted? Your mesmer pounded? Your Grenth Dervish snared? Your dazed condition removed? Do you think outside RA?
If you bring an enchant heavy caster in your team, you will ensure also to bring some counters to that massive enchant removal that could occur. A cripshot ranger is particularly adapted to snare melee disenchanters, and interrupt casting disenchanters. And then you begin to have great trouble with those near invincible MR users.
If MR was only a question of 1v1, there wouldn't even be a problem. But you must count on teamates too.
Hell, if massive disenchantment were so powerful, then triple smite wouldn't have become a so dominant build in Faction tournament.
I use this skill when monking in TA you know. And what I see is that skill is bringing me far more wins than any other skills i used up to now.