Curse

Imperium · Dec 27, 2006, 12:07 PM // 12:07

I've been wanting to ask about this for a while but was spurred on by a article I saw in the November article of Game Developer magazine (which to be honest, I mostly disagreed with).

Throughout most of the games that we play, there is an element of computer generated 'luck' that is directly linked to our progress throughout the game. Whether that be the luck of a certain ecto drop for a short time period boost, or something that we can use more often, like a green weapon. Then there's the monster that didn't chase you after you aggro'd it while on your last few HP.
Recently, I was putting forward a project plan for an MMORPG (school assignment) and the team started to think about the luck factor which posed a simple question to us. How much luck is too much or too little for you?

Obviously, for every player it will be different but this one simple factor can wreck an economy of a game or even kill the community. The economy is such a fragile thing either way as the white dye experiment recently would show you (which went very well), or on the flip side, something introduced into an economy can create a two-tiered system.

On a 20 player and 30 NPC levelled system, there can be alot of room for....planned luck. Kind of like if you have been having bad drops for a long time, all of your good days will come at once. Obviously, that could provide a system where players could sit in the easy areas for their unlucky days and only venture out on the good days, but its a thought.

Would you prefer that EVERY time you hit a boss while soloing you got a green weapon (if applicable to that particular boss, of course)?
Would you like the game to make you fail a task over and over again?

Finding this correct balance seems to be a mind bending situation.

The current landscape of 'luck' inside of Guild Wars in particularly, seems rather...strange. It would be interesting to know if this is truly 'planned luck' i.e. each player has an exact chance on each drop which increases over time or the truly random type of drops which can be further restricted by the amount of party members etc.

I am rather partial to chaotic randomness as I feel it increases longevity of the game and keeps players interested. Chaotic randomness is a theory that any item can be dropped at any time by any beast (within certain limitations, the chance of a level 1 Fanged Iboga dropping an Ecto would be infinitly small - but importantly, it would be possible).

The loyal players among any community or 'power players' invariably are able to breeze through the game after a certain amount of time playing. This is what Hideo Kojima referred to in Metal Gear Solid 2 as your "gaming instincts". You pick up the 'feel' of the game and can predict what is to come in front of you, whether that be storyline or AI related. Is there anyone here who *honestly* was surprised by any of the endings so far in Guild Wars? How many of you pro-runners can walk through most of the areas now because you have memorised the spawn locations and behaviour of the NPC's?

This is not specifically a "U SUX COZ WE NO UR BADD!ES !!11!!11" complaint, more of a polite request for opinions on the subject.

I must admit it now, apart from some observations I have gained through playing GW, I know next to nothing about how the engine works. I am under the impression that each NPC has a spawn point and a projected path to follow, not unlike a Lua script. I can understand the design decision on this, spawning NPC's with paths makes controlling lag easier (you dont get 1000000 enemies on one screen), it makes balancing areas much easier and makes it equal towards each player.
Unfortunatley, this is the probable cause of most peoples gaming instincts as far as AI is concerned. Players, whether consciously or not, pick up on the scripting style of a game and can begin to predict the NPC movements before they encounter them. This creates a problem, and to get down to it, boredom.

As I said, I know nothing about the engine, but how difficult can it be for the developers to get modify a scripting system so that the NPC's can spawn in 'zones' and not in the same place all of the time? Each zone has a maximum and minimum number of enemies with a behaviour model based on their race/level.
I realise that players may then try to jump in and out of hard areas looking for the 'easy run' but if this is done over a whole area, it would be swings and roundabouts as us Brits say i.e. they would get an easy first spawn and a hard second spawn. In the higher end places where there are 100+ spawning areas, it would be impossible to get an 'easy run' through all of them, or at least very very unlikely.

Another thing that would make my day, is to see unstable elements introduced into the AI of the NPC's. Just *once* I'd like to see a Madness Titan get bored and walk off in the middle of a fight, even if its winning. Or a Shambling Mesa attacking another Shambling Mesa (over its girlfriend or something, RP people!). If the ultimate goal of AI is to closely replicate human behaviour then these 'flip outs' would add an emotional state to the enemies and make them unpredictable, or at least able to cast doubt in your mind. We never have Giants willing to sell out their own race for a quick buck and the chance to live, that is unless it is specifically set out like that in a quest. If the design can be implemented into a quest that can 'half-kill' enemies before they ally with you, why can't this be done outside of quests and on regular area spawns?
Could this not be an option to NPC's, to surrender?
Even something as stupid as a plant must value its own life, especially when it is running away from a group (sloooowly) and taking damage?

As I see it, ArenaNet has come to a crossroad with Guild Wars. The trilogy is now complete and I personally am delighted with the results of their labours. We have an expanded universe built upon a logical storyline with thousands of different play styles.
I have now seen the first trilogy of Guild Wars and am hoping something completely different in the second. That is to say, different in the philosophy of the game, not the actual lore around it. I would love a non-Disney ending, plot twists and turns, capable and realistic (I hate using that word when referring to a fantasy MMORPG) enemies and something that will truly make me go, "Wow, didn't see that coming". Unfortunatley, the last game I can remember to make me do that was Monkey Island though I really see the similarities between the early LucasArts and ArenaNet in the way they produce games (if the DVD's and reports are to be believed) and still have high hopes for the next game whichever direction they decide to go with it.

Sorry for the long read guys.

Redfeather1975 · Dec 28, 2006, 01:52 AM // 01:52

In Everquest 2 my friends and I were fighting scarecrows.
Suddenly 6 bandits unstealthed and wailed on our butts! We got completely wiped out. To this day I've never met anyone who had that happen to them! Was that a random spawn? If so it was very cool!
I like random spawns, but not if it's an NPC or monster you really need for a quest!

Antheus · Dec 28, 2006, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Pursuit of luck has devastated men, corporations and nations.

Do not underestimate the power that games of chance hold, and the human imagination to feed of that. It's the stuff dreams are made of. But daily, they turn into nightmare.

Only statistics can be used to determine, up to a certain precision, whether something is truly random or biased, and even statistics cannot prove everything - but what it can, holds. In so far, loot system, from the farmers that followed their drops, has been proven to be random, unless you receive the anti-farm pop-up. This, as of yet, has not been proven wrong, and is unlikely to be.

Not A Fifty Five · Dec 28, 2006, 02:21 AM // 02:21

well certainly things aren't entirely random, you wont catch a charr holding some ecto

Imperium · Dec 28, 2006, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Yes, things aren't entirely random now and I don't ask for them to be, I don't expect to see a group of level 28 Margonites in pre-searing.
The problem that Guild Wars currently faces is the same one as all games with many sequels (that use the same lore), they have lost the ability to truly surprise us. This isn't down to lack of ideas, talent or communication, I believe that it is down to the structure which the game is built into.

After reading through the thread again, I think randomness is the wrong word to use for what we are asking for. We want creative spontaneity, I think it would be great to be travelling through the Realm of Torment and happen upon another group of (NPC) people fighting against the Margonites in a homage to the "I loved you in Wall Street!" moment of Hot Shots.
Silly? Sure but these are the types of things that create a sense of enjoyment after the initial storyline and challenges have been lost.

Its important to say that all this would be happening OUTSIDE of mission/spawned by quests, it would just be strange events happening in the world.

It would be nice for a dev/community person to weigh in their thoughts on this, mind you, who doesn't want that for their own ideas in this section?

Deleet · Dec 28, 2006, 05:03 AM // 05:03

If you want spontanity, tra random arenas

Anyway, what you're talking about, i disagree. I dislike any luck factor.

Skill > Luck + Time spent. IMO.

But i'd love to see some areas in PvE with randomized mobs, even though it would be like pvp, just with stupid players.