Curse

KiyoshiKyokai · Jan 13, 2007, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Seeing all the great classes here, I was inspired to come up with one of my own. Here goes...

Armigers are the ultimate defensive warriors, combining heavy armor with a strong array of weapon spells, Armigers can take the heat of battle and protect their teammates using skills, stances, and spells.

Special Traits Armigers introduce a new type of skill, Infusions, which are similar to weapon spells, but affect armor. While under the effect of an infusion, the target's armor glows the color of his profession (similar to the look of boss characters in PvE).

Description
A monolithic figure stands above the people of continent of your choice watching as a silent sentinel. Immortal, Mythical, more a tower of safety than a living man... this is the figure of the Armiger, a knight who stands as the symbol of undying valor, one indestructible in his battlefield prowess.

Appearance
Armigers wear armor as heavy-as/heavier than the normal warrior (see how it actually gives an inherent movement penalty). Their slow walk and heavy armor makes them appear as walking fortresses. Armor styles involve plate mails with broad shoulders. Physically, the armiger has a heavyset figure, adept at standing in one place and not being moved. Everything about the armiger's body should basically say "Just try to take me down. I dare you."

Armor:
Armigers wear a set of 90 Armor, that grants no bonus to energy regeneration (leaving them at the natural +2). Their armor grants an additional +25 maximum HP, and reduces their base movement speed by 10% (2% per piece).

Armor Insignias
Infused Insignia - Armor +15, while under the effects of an infusion.
Wielder's Insignia - Armor +15, while under the effects of a weapon spell.
Bastion Insignia - Armor +5 for each adjacent ally (maximum of 20).
Relay Insignia - Base movement speed +2% (a full set of this armor negates the movement penalty on the normal Armiger armor).

Weapons:
The armiger class weapon is the Great Shield, a heavy two handed tower shield capable of full body protection, and embued with spikes on the front to deal slam attacks. This weapon has melee range, and attacks with the same rate as a scythe. It deals 11-22 damage (max) and grants +20 armor (max).

This shield bears resemblance to the Tower Shield carried by Roman Legionaires: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scutum_(shield)

Attributes:

Vigilance - Primary Attribute. For each rank in Vigilance, you have a +1% chance to "Block" any incoming attacks. Many skills, especially those which deal with self-preservation become more effective with higher vigilance.

Shield Mastery - Increasing your rank in shield mastery increases your ability to deal damage and the chances of causing a critical hit while equipped with a Great Shield. Many skills, especially those that involve using a Great Shield, become more effective with higher Shield Mastery.

Armorcrafting - No inherent effect. Skills which involve your armor become more effective with more ranks in Armorcrafting.

Weaponcrafting - No inherent effect. Skills which involve weapons become more effective with more ranks in Weaponcrafting.

Some Sample Skills

Vigilance-Linked Skills

Vigilant Stance
Stance / E:5 / Act: - / Rec: 20
For 10 seconds, you and adjacent allies have +5...+17% chance to block incoming attacks.

Invulnerable Stance
Stance / E:5 / Act: - / Rec: 10
For 5...20 seconds, you and adjacent allies cannot be knocked down.

Signet of Timely Defense
Signet / E: - / Act: 1 / Rec: 20
For 3...20 seconds, the next time a source would deal more than 200...100 damage to you, you block that damage.

Bastion Stance
Elite Stance / E: 5 / Act: - / Rec: 40
For 10 seconds, you cannot block or evade attacks. You gain and adjacent allies gain 1...24 base damage reduction.

"None shall pass!"
Shout / Adr: 3 / Act: - / Rec: 15
For 10 seconds, foes who move out of your melee range become crippled for 3...9 seconds. "None shall pass!" ends if you move.

"Face Me!"
Elite Shout / Adr: 10 / Act: - / Rec: 25
For 10 seconds, you and up to 1...6 foes within earshot become crippled.

Signet of Immortality
Elite Signet / E: 5 / Act: 10 / Rec: 30
Target touched ally is restored to life with 5...65%health and zero energy. While activating this signet you have +8...+40 armor.

Indestructible Stance
Stance / E: 5 / Act: - / Rec: 20
For 10 seconds, You have +2...6 health regeneration and +10...+20 armor. This stance ends if you move or are knocked down.

Shield Mastery Linked Skills

Overrun
Shield Attack / Adr: 4 / Act: .25 / Rec: 5
You perform a shield attack that deals +10...+20 damage. If this attack hits a crippled foe, that foe is knocked down for 1...3 seconds.

Shield Maul
Shield Attack / Adr: 6 / Act: .25 / Rec: 5
You perform a shield attack that deals +5...+12 damage and causes bleeding for 2...14 seconds.

Trample Underfoot
Elite Shield Attack / Adr: 10 / Act: .5 / Rec: 16
Target touched, knocked down foe takes 50...125 damage and begins bleeding for 5...10 seconds. For 5 seconds, you have -60 armor.

Vigilant Slam
Shield Attack / Adr: 6 / Act: - / Rec: 15
This attack deals +2...+24 damage. For 5 seconds, you have a +1...+10% chance to block attacks.

Phalanx Stance
Stance / E: 5 / Act: - / Rec: 25
For 5...15 seconds you move 40% slower and have +25% armor.

Immortal's Repose
Stance / E: 5 / Act: - / Rec: 15
For 3...5 seconds you have +10...+15 armor and cannot be interrupted. When Immortal's Repose ends you are knocked down.

Armorcrafting Linked Skills

Strengthen Armor
Infusion / E: 5 / Act: 2 / Rec: 5
For 2...20 seconds, Target touched ally gains +0...+24 armor.

Crafter's Synergy
Enchantment / E: 5 / Act: 4 / Rec: 60
For 60 seconds, Infusions cast on target ally last 30%...60% longer.

Lyssa's Armor
Elite Infusion / E: 10 / Act: 4 / Rec: 60
For 4...20 seconds, target touched ally has +2 Energy regeneration, and casts spells 15% faster.

Kormir's Armor
Elite Infusion / E: 10 / Act: 4 / Rec: 60
For 4...20 seconds, target touched ally is immune to blindness and dazed, and shouts and chants used by that ally last 50% longer.

Melandru's Armor
Elite Infusion / E: 10 / Act: 4 / Rec: 60
For 4...20 seconds, target touched ally recovers from conditions 50% faster, and that ally's attacks cause randomly cripple, blindness, or weakness.

Balthazar's Armor
Elite Infusion / E: 10 / Act: 4 / Rec: 60
For 4...20 seconds, target touched ally is immune to weakness, gains +25 armor, and cannot be interrupted while attacking.

Grenth's Armor
Elite Infusion / E: 10 / Act: 4 / Rec: 60
For 4...20 seconds, target touched ally's health cannot drop below 1 due to damage. When Grenth's Armor ends, that ally loses 1 health.

Dwayna's Armor
Elite Infusion / E: 10 / Act: 4 / Rec: 60
For 4...20 seconds, target touched ally cannot take more than 5% of that ally's maximum health damage from a single attack or spell.

Weaponcrafting Linked Skills

Insightful Weapon
Weapon Spell / E: 10 / Act: 1 / Rec: 30
For 2...14 seconds, target touched ally has an insightful weapon. That ally's attacks cannot be "evaded".

Strip Weapon
Spell / E: 5 / Act: 1 / Rec: 10
If target touched ally is under the effects of a weapon spell, that weapon spell ends and you gain 5...10 energy.

Improve Weapon
Weapon Spell / E: 5 / Act: 1 / Rec: 60
For 60 seconds, target touched ally has an improved weapon. This ally deals an additional 1...6 damage when attacking.

Simplify Weapon
Hex spell / E: 5 / Act: .25 / Rec: 30
Target touched enemy has a simplified weapon. For 3...15 seconds, that weapon loses any non-physical damage types it has, and deals 20% less damage.

Warmaster's Weapon
Elite Weapon Spell / E: 15 / Act: 1 / Rec: 60
For 5...22 seconds, target touched ally has a warmaster's weapon. The cost of all that ally's adrenal skills cost 2 less adrenaline to activate and recharge 25% faster

Unlinked Skills

Clear Mind Signet
Signet / E: - / Act: 2 / Rec: 40
Lose all adrenaline. You gain energy equal to the adrenaline lost. (Note that max adrenaline is 10 strikes)

Weaponsmith's Signet
Signet / E: - / Act: 1 / Rec: 30
Your next weapon spell costs 50% less energy and lasts 25% longer.

Armorsmith's Signet
Signet / E: - / Act: 1 / Rec: 30
Your next infusion costs 50% less energy and lasts 25% longer.

Vigilant Signet
Elite Signet / E: - / Act: .25 / Rec: 5
For 5 seconds, you block the next melee attack against you.

Rook's Move
Stance / E: 5 / Act: - / Rec: 15
For 5 seconds you move 50% faster and have +10 armor. While in this stance, you cannot attack.

Playstyle Notes
Armigers have little of the "heavy-hitting" power of rangers, dervishes, and warriors. Since their spells have almost all have near or touch range, they are limited to supporting frontline fighters and protecting others. However, with the protection of an armiger's bodyguarding skills and stances these normally fragile classes can confidently survive a good deal of melee combat.

Energy Management is one of the largest problems of this class. This issue is solved mostly by the armiger's unlinked signets and a few other energy management skills. For the most part, however, they will not be able to sustain long chains of spells as a caster class can.

Another use of the armiger is territory control. Armigers are adept at staying in one place and holding their own from that location. For this reason, they can tactically charge into enemies (in PvE) and secure a location while other players set up to nuke/spike. In PvP, other casters (such as a ritualist or monk) can stand near an Armiger to receive the benefit of his protective stances while they cast spells that will be beneficial to the other frontliners.

Dean Harper · Jan 13, 2007, 11:18 PM // 23:18

lol, a little bit like goofy in kingdom hearts??

Fire Nin · Jan 14, 2007, 12:29 AM // 00:29

I could see this happening seems like a reasonable class.

Comrade87 · Jan 14, 2007, 12:58 AM // 00:58

I like the idea of an Armiger class (has something to do with my obsession with them back when I played Morrowind.) But I'm not sure that I care much for the idea of a Warrior/Ritualist hybrid.

On a side note, its obvious you put alot of work into this idea, and thats really cool.

KiyoshiKyokai · Jan 14, 2007, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean Harper

lol, a little bit like goofy in kingdom hearts??

That's not where I'm really drawing inspiration from, but yeah, that might be a fair comparison, especially with the shield weapon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Nin

I could see this happening seems like a reasonable class.

Thanks. ^^

Quote:

Originally Posted by Comrade87

I like the idea of an Armiger class (has something to do with my obsession with them back when I played Morrowind.) But I'm not sure that I care much for the idea of a Warrior/Ritualist hybrid.

On a side note, its obvious you put alot of work into this idea, and thats really cool.

They're ritualist-like in the sense of using weapon spells, but that's the extent of the connection. The real problem is making them distanced from the warrior class. Looking over it now, I see alot of similarities between this and the warrior/paragon classes. I guess I'll do some editing today to give it some more individuality.

Thanks for the comments everybody. Please give me more ideas on what I can add!

Kai Nui · Jan 14, 2007, 03:41 AM // 03:41

The shield they weild is overpowered. Their insignias are overpowered, their skills are too widespread accross different types, and simply doesn't fit. I do think an armiger type of character could exist, but not like this.

actionjack · Jan 14, 2007, 09:05 AM // 09:05

Looks good.

I like the two-handed shields. Infusion of armor and weapon is good too, and help add a support role to them as well. With thier high recharge time, and need to "touch", it add a fair touch to keep in better in balance. Certainly one of the better ones. Kudos.

KiyoshiKyokai · Jan 14, 2007, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kai Nui

The shield they weild is overpowered.

11-22 damage is wand damage, but it attacks much slower than a wand. +20 armor is only a little more than you can get with a shield offhand. I would say the greatshield is probably one of the worst weapons as far as combat usage goes. You're basically trading 6 points of max damage on the axe for 4 additional points of armor. This isn't a huge breaking point, IMO. If you have a more in-depth explanation as to how this is more powerful than a normal weapon, I'd like to hear it. It's certainly not outdoing scythes in the brokenness department.

See a comparison of weapon damage/speeds

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kai Nui

Their insignias are overpowered

Few decent insignias give less than 15 armor (Windwalker's, every Ritualist Insignia, etc.) Another group give 20 (most Necromancer, Elementalist, and Assassin insignias).

Especially for a class based on their armor, a +15 insignia is hardly unthinkable.

A comparison of Insignias

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kai Nui

their skills are too widespread accross different types, and simply doesn't fit.

Now they have shouts, stances, weapon spells, infusions, signets, and shield attacks as skill types. Six types of skills.

I'd sort of like to see weapon spells and infusions rolled into one thing, but I'm making an object of not modifying the existing GW game when creating this class. I'd say your assessment is fair at least.

However, while there are widespread types of skills, the basic objects of these skills are the same:
- Improve me/my party's armor
- Keep myself alive
- Protect my adjacent allies.
- Force people to fight me and not the party casters.

Just about all the armiger's skills (except for a few shield attacks), fall into one of these basic goals. Also, having a widespread skill base is important. Necromancer skills can do all sorts of things, for example, but most Necromancers pick one or two of these. Having lots of differing skills doesn't make a class overpowered, it makes it deep, and gives players a chance to have individuality within the class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionjack

Looks good.

I like the two-handed shields. Infusion of armor and weapon is good too, and help add a support role to them as well. With thier high recharge time, and need to "touch", it add a fair touch to keep in better in balance. Certainly one of the better ones. Kudos.

Thanks. ^_^

The idea is support, but using the shield as a weapon allows other classes to dip into this group for the better armor if they need. Alot of the shield skills could benefit an elementalist or mesmer who needs something better than his paper armor to survive in PvP.

I imagine I'll add more defensive stances for the shield later. The offensive attacks are just to give you an idea of how a shield is capable of doing damage.

arcanemacabre · Jan 14, 2007, 11:24 AM // 11:24

This is a sweet idea. As you were describing this hulking mass of armor with a giant, nasty-looking shield with spikes... oh man, I was picturing it and it's freakin awesome!

However, I agree with you when you say that some of the skills are a bit too much like Warrior or Paragon skills. Making new and unique skills is really tough, but I think you did alright.

Also, I'm not completely in love with the Armorcrafting and Weaponcrafting. Doesn't seem to fit this tank incarnate. Not sure what else you could do, either. Maybe wards? They don't have to necessarily be magical wards, but they could operate on the same game mechanic.

You could have a secondary weapon, like a siege crossbow/cannon with a very slow fire rate, massive damage with basic AoE, and some inherent armor (like a large crossbow or cannon that has a built-in shield, and needs to be fixed into the ground in order to fire, thus immobilizing the Armiger temporarily). It would make the Armiger either a firing tank, or battering ram tank.

Eh, just some ideas.

hopefulliness · Jan 14, 2007, 04:43 PM // 16:43

this class+ the engineer class= our next 2 classes since the both deal with setting themselves up

BahamutKaiser · Jan 14, 2007, 10:23 PM // 22:23

The function of the class is rather good, with application of abilities which protect nearby, or adjacent members. But the idea of a class more armored than warrior is just silly. Defensive prowess and advantage though some other means is understandable, but honestly when you look at much of the armor options for Warrior, and than include a 2 handed sword wielded in one hand and a shield in the other, it is just silly to up that to the next knotch.

Also, wielding a huge shield offers no realistic protection against melee combatants, it is like haulling around a mobile barrier, good against projectiles, but silly in heated combat, and using 2 hands with it to compensate doesn't make it better. It doesn't have to be a shield if it is monolithic, whatever it is will serve as a shield. Consider a "Cloud Striffe" type sword, or a "Songo" type mega boomerang (hiricos or some shit), both offer plenty of protection as a shield in its sheer size and sturdiness. If the class is to block with a huge object, it doesn't even need to be a shield.

If the class is going to use a shield, it should be comperable with exsisting shields, and instead have an attribute which provides a variety of attack abilities with the shield as a weapon, or even something exotic like shield throwing.

Consider this, GW uses realistic combat identities, look into feudal combat arsinals and search for examples of 2 handed bashing shields, tell me what you find.

About the only way you could realisticly function in heavier armor than warrior is on a steed. And for a Charging, armored class, that is much more appropriate. Breaking enemy lines and leading teammates into fray is most naturally done by a cavalryman, who uses the indominable force and power of a steed and armor heavier than he can even manuver in.

Comrade87 · Jan 15, 2007, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by KiyoshiKyokai

They're ritualist-like in the sense of using weapon spells, but that's the extent of the connection. The real problem is making them distanced from the warrior class. Looking over it now, I see alot of similarities between this and the warrior/paragon classes. I guess I'll do some editing today to give it some more individuality.

Thats probably the thing I do not like most about your Armiger profession, it steals possibly the only original concept that Ritualists have.

Summoning minions which fight for them? Necro's do that.
Summoning minions that heal/protect/disable a target? Monks and Mesmers do that. (aside from the summoning aspect)
Using high damage lightning attacks? Elementalists do that.
Enchanting weapons to increase their potency? Only Ritualists do that.

KiyoshiKyokai · Jan 15, 2007, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Comrade87

Thats probably the thing I do not like most about your Armiger profession, it steals possibly the only original concept that Ritualists have.

Summoning minions which fight for them? Necro's do that.
Summoning minions that heal/protect/disable a target? Monks and Mesmers do that. (aside from the summoning aspect)
Using high damage lightning attacks? Elementalists do that.
Enchanting weapons to increase their potency? Only Ritualists do that.

I'd have to disagree and voice an opinion that Weapon Spells are just another kind of enchantment. The only difference is that weapon spells can't be stripped off (yet).

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

Consider this, GW uses realistic combat identities, look into feudal combat arsinals and search for examples of 2 handed bashing shields, tell me what you find.

Here's what I found: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scutum_(shield)

Roman Legionaires carried meter tall tower shields that provided full body protection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

This meant the shield was strong and yet light enough to be carried over long distances.

The boss in the centre of the shield (the umbo), constructed either from copper alloy (brass or bronze) or iron, was itself used offensively, being heavy and dense enough to stun or wind an opponent

The edges of the shield were also bound in brass or rawhide, to reinforce and protect them, and may also have been used offensively.

Shields have never been used totally defensively. If you look into it, I'm sure you'll see that shield slamming is as old a combat technique as using a shield itself.

And remind me how mesmers/necromancers/monks/elementalists/ritualists fit into the medieval combat scheme, if you would. There's a serious fantasy element added into this game, and it's based more on traditional RPGs than on real life warriors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

But the idea of a class more armored than warrior is just silly.

Armiger might be best connected to the DnD Knight class, which was in fact, more defensive than the traditional DnD fighter. Knight's didn't break DnD, and I don't think that Armigers would break GW. It just means armor ignoring spells and health degen are a far easier way of killing them than hand to hand combat.

Anyway, there is a point there though. I think I'll knock their armor down a notch, since the Vigilance stat makes them already hard to hit, and they do have nice insignias.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hopefuliness

this class+ the engineer class= our next 2 classes since the both deal with setting themselves up

My class is compared to the #1 vote leading class!

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

This is a sweet idea. As you were describing this hulking mass of armor with a giant, nasty-looking shield with spikes... oh man, I was picturing it and it's freakin awesome!

I think you see the same picture I do, Macabre. Thanks for your comments, and I'll consider them carefully.

draxynnic · Jan 15, 2007, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

About the only way you could realisticly function in heavier armor than warrior is on a steed. And for a Charging, armored class, that is much more appropriate. Breaking enemy lines and leading teammates into fray is most naturally done by a cavalryman, who uses the indominable force and power of a steed and armor heavier than he can even manuver in.

Not necassarily even then. You hear stories about knights having to be winched onto their steeds, but that only happened with examples that weren't intended to be used in battle in the first place, but instead were intended for use in sporting events (in events such as jousts, where you want to reduce the risk of actual injury as much as possible and you can be pretty sure your opponent's infantry isn't going to start inserting poniards into your joints while you're lying helpless on the ground after a fall). While I'm sure some knights did it anyway (there are a few born every generation...) most battle armour was actually light enough to fight effectively on foot in a pinch.

That said, there is an important point there, which, when you look at some of the Warrior armour insignias, indicates that Warrior armour is intended to be close to the end of the line. Consider the Sentinel's set, for instance: it provides the best protection of the game, but you need 13 Str to gain the benefit from it. The way I look at it, we're looking at armour that is so heavy that you need magically-augmented strength to not be weighed down to the point where the benefits of wearing heavy armour are counteracted by a loss of ability to defend yourself. Realistically speaking, it appears that the Knight's and Dreadnaught's insignias represent the heaviest armours that a normal human could wear and fight effectively in. However, this is, to a certain extent, represented by the cost in mobility - but it does remain a point to consider when considering 'uber-armour' classes, and the cost of mobility has it's own problems (see below).

On the weapons side... I'd also prefer to avoid the game adopting 'silly' weapons. The scythe is borderline, but essentially represents the slashing-polearm class of weapons (many of which evolved from scythes adapted for war), but if something wasn't used as a primary weapon during any historical period, it probably shouldn't be appearing as one here. In terms of using it as a weapon, even with the spikes, it seems to be fairly cumbersome - you'd either be trying to push with the shield (which would be fairly easy to dodge, and you probably wouldn't be able to get much leverage with it) or simply abandoning defense altogether and gripping it on the rim and swinging it like a table... Historically, shields of the size you describe were basically used as mobile walls to protect reloading missile troops, not in melee - the soldiers who used them generally carried a sidearm (and occasionally a smaller, more useful shield) for use in melee.

Conceptual ideas aside, I'm having problems seeing just how this profession would work on the battlefield. In short, I can't see any reason why I would actually want to have on on my side, or why I would be particularly bothered by one on the other side. If it's defending casters, it's not doing much apart from defending casters, and the casters its defending aren't going to be able to move much and still receive protection, which leads to a tactical vulnerability. If it's with the frontliners - there's probably still a softer target to attack, and either the other frontliners would have to slow down so it can keep up or they're going to get seperated. Either way, you're essentially ceding a tactical advantage to the enemy in exchange for a dubious benefit. And that's without going into the number of PvE missions and PvP scenarios where success or failure can rest on reaching trouble spots quickly.

Ultimately, I think a lot of people are looking towards an uber-tank class that didn't really exist*. Historically, the heaviest armour combination that was actually used by a single human that was expected to actually fight with that armour was full plate and a reasonably large, but still fairly maneouverable shield. Even that was actually relatively uncommon in infantry - at the peak of armour development, two-handed weapons such as greatswords and polearms tended to be favoured in order to achieve the leverage needed to cause significant injuries through plate. Essentially, the peak of 'tankiness' equipment-wise, historically, was achieved in what we see in the Warrior: heavy armour and shield. Getting further than that would be more a case of fighting style than simply adding more metal.

*All right, all right, there are no historical references to the Elementalist either

. But when discussing non-magical fighting styles, the point still stands.

PS Oh, and I don't think anyone has said this yet, which actually surprises me: Permanent block or evasions chances tend to be frowned on for balance reasons, due to the effect that have on attack spells, especially Assassin and (to a lesser extent) Warrior attack chains. The chance to wipe out an attack skill or a whole chain of attack skills entirely that block and evade chances represent is something that is best reserved for the use of a skill yourself (that the enemy can find a way to counter) rather than something that is active all the time.

draxynnic · Jan 15, 2007, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by KiyoshiKyokai

Here's what I found: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scutum_(shield)

Roman Legionaires carried meter tall tower shields that provided full body protection.

Shields have never been used totally defensively. If you look into it, I'm sure you'll see that shield slamming is as old a combat technique as using a shield itself.

The scutum was still wielded in one hand.

Yes, shields were used as offensive weapons as well - something that I would like to see made more of in GW - but never as the primary offensive arm. There was always another weapon to go with it.

Two-handed bashing shields, however, aren't something I've ever come across historically. If nothing else, consider the actual benefit from using a shield two-handed as a weapon: There isn't really much of one. On the whole, you can't really get enough leverage with your other hand to provide much extra power to the shield bash, while on the other hand a shield gripped by two hands is much less mobile than one borne on a single arm. Ergo, you might as well use your other hand to wield a real weapon.

Oren The Destroyer · Jan 15, 2007, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Can you say holding build? this would be insane in pvp, an armiger with bonds=scary (speaking from a pvp standpoint)

lyra_song · Jan 15, 2007, 04:11 AM // 04:11

My patriot class (based on Riot Police and captain america) uses shields for ramming and pushing, while using a one handed blunt weapon.

In RO, the Crusader can use their shields as throwing weapons (like captain america :P ).

i severely dislike the idea of having a built in blocking attribute.

BahamutKaiser · Jan 15, 2007, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Your example didn't prove anything to your cause. Meter high (3 feet) rectangular shields are already in the game, See Warrior and Str based shields. As well, Paragon sheilds are modeled after high shields too. This offers nothing to support the idea of using both hands on an oversized shield.

Warriors are already wearing unrealisticly heavy armor, Full Sized Shields, and even one-handing overly large swords which would be unweildy even with 2 hands at the same time as their meter high shields. Warriors already have Shield Bash abilities too, making uneducated generalizations about opportunities doesn't support your cause. If anything, Warrior should get more shield attacking techniques, or perhaps a new class could use a shield with shield attacking techniques, but this still doesn't support a 2 handed shield.

When someone asks you to bring up some supporting evidence to your idea, do not refer to totally unsupportive sources which don't provide any examples of such unrealistic weapons. At the least, if your going to be unrealistic, it could at least be impressive, like a Giant Boomerang, not an oversized shield in 2 hands.

This is a fantasy game, that means the world opperates differently than reality, but anyone who understands suspension of disbelief knows that even in a fantasy rules apply, just different ones, that is why games like Final Fantasy are soooo popular, because of their ability to come up with realistic fantasy. There is a difference between fantasy and fake. The game isn't going to be totally real, in real life people don't get hit and survive, they avoid attacks. But the envelope is already pushed, Warrior already wears unnaturally heavy armor, and wields unnaturally heavy weapons wile using rather large shields. Your idea wants even more armor and a 2 handed shield as a weapon.

Shields as weapons, even in fantasy games, don't need to be any large than a normal shield, it is silly. Even in fantasy games where the shield can be thrown, or is profusely used to attack with offensive augmentation, a 2 handed shield doesn't add up.

It may not matter whether this is a good idea or not, but it isn't. I can't believe you even used D&D as an example, but even by your example, what is a Warrior closer too? A fighter, or a Knight. In case your having trouble with that question.... The armor worn by the Warrior on the front of the Prophecies campaign is Knight armor.

Dahl · Jan 15, 2007, 06:56 AM // 06:56

I'd like to point out that armor only does so much. Things like attack skills and chaos damage ignore armor.

If you go out and face a bunch of Jade brotherhood knights alone, using no special nifty skills, but having 1,000,000 armor, they will still completely wreck you.

So the idea of having more armor than a warrior isn't all that bad since it won't exactly be overpowered.

an Ar/Mo with "Face Me!" and Dismiss Condition may yet be the solution to annoying touchers.

Huge 2 handed shields are a big no-no, however something like dual shields is not out of the question. Dual Spiked Bucklers I think would be something neat to see.

I wouldn't take this class as is, but a few of the ideas here and there could be taken into consideration.

KiyoshiKyokai · Jan 15, 2007, 08:08 AM // 08:08

Ok ok ok, I feel the shield hate. Let's talk about fixing it.

However, if the shield were one-handed (assuming it stays a weapon) what kind of offhand would they be wielding? I kind of like Dahl's dual shield's idea, which would, as some people suggested, raise their effectiveness over one shield for both attack and defense (but gives me the image of a boxer with metal gloves... maybe gauntlets would be even better?)

Any suggestions?

Btw, BahamutKaiser: I really don't care about history. Please don't flame me anymore. If you think the class is unfixable trash then go post somewhere else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynic

Conceptual ideas aside, I'm having problems seeing just how this profession would work on the battlefield. In short, I can't see any reason why I would actually want to have on on my side, or why I would be particularly bothered by one on the other side. If it's defending casters, it's not doing much apart from defending casters, and the casters its defending aren't going to be able to move much and still receive protection, which leads to a tactical vulnerability. If it's with the frontliners - there's probably still a softer target to attack, and either the other frontliners would have to slow down so it can keep up or they're going to get seperated. Either way, you're essentially ceding a tactical advantage to the enemy in exchange for a dubious benefit. And that's without going into the number of PvE missions and PvP scenarios where success or failure can rest on reaching trouble spots quickly.

Like Oren said, it's all about holding territory. The goal of an armiger is to strengthen a group's tactical position while holding territory, and also to tank through enemy lines and take the heat off of others. As for casters, they can't really move much anyway, at least not when casting, so presumably they'll spend alot of time standing still. Movement, like you mentioned is a problem, but easily overcome with skills like Dash, "Charge!", or the above Rook's Move.

There are always classes that are going to be better at certain missions than others, so I don't think that their weakness in a few PvE missions or a small number of PvP maps are terribly crippling. Spirit ritualists are also far better at holding than mobile fighting, as are minion masters, but this hardly makes them dead weight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynic

PS Oh, and I don't think anyone has said this yet, which actually surprises me: Permanent block or evasions chances tend to be frowned on for balance reasons, due to the effect that have on attack spells, especially Assassin and (to a lesser extent) Warrior attack chains. The chance to wipe out an attack skill or a whole chain of attack skills entirely that block and evade chances represent is something that is best reserved for the use of a skill yourself (that the enemy can find a way to counter) rather than something that is active all the time.

I was thinking about the Assassin's critical strikes (+1% critical chance) when I made this ability, but perhaps it does lack some balance, when you put it in that light. My other thoughts were "For each rank of vigilance you have +1 armor" or "For each 2 ranks of Vigilance you have -1 base damage reduction".

Either of those sound more interesting to anyone?