Curse

Dutch Masterr · Feb 21, 2007, 12:29 AM // 00:29

as you probably know, the officers in a guild can recruit and also kick players from their guild (except other officers) whenever they feel like it, with or without the guild leader's permission. today an officer in my guild got upset or angry over something, reason unknown, and decided he should kick all 85 non-officer members from my guild...including me. after kicking everyone, he just left the guild. i spoke to some other officers and they were extremley angry over this and my guild leader has yet to find out. now they are in the process of trying to find everyone who was kicked to get them back in.

now, youre all probably saying "blah blah blah you just got kicked and your pissed", but this isnt the first time it has happened. it has happened in 2 of my old guilds too.

the way officers can kick whoever they want, when they want MUST be changed. i hope some some of you understand where im comming form and will agree with me that this needs to be fixed.

-Loki- · Feb 21, 2007, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Don't recruit morons. Don't promote people you don't know well to officer.

pingu666 · Feb 21, 2007, 12:44 AM // 00:44

ouch

i was kicked out of my old guild cos the leader took a joke the wrong way. she then proceeded to kick everyone in the guild id brought in, and another couple (dont think any where online at all)

Myrkwid · Feb 21, 2007, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Somehow reminds me of all those spammers in presearing "New guild forming! Selfinvite! The first eight become officers!"

Easy solution: Don't give the officer's job to persons who are not trustworthy or unable to handle the job. That's why all my officers are within my cars driving range...and they know I'd pay them a visit if they screw things up ^^

Sir Skullcrasher · Feb 21, 2007, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Pay them a visit with a sledgehammer?

Myrkwid · Feb 21, 2007, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Never hit a man with glasses, use a brick

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 21, 2007, 12:51 AM // 00:51

To the OP: this isn't problem Net needs to fix.

Make the title of Officer mean something, only promote reliable people with enough maturity to handle being an officer

It really is that simple.

There's no 100% guarantees in life, we can only surround ourselves with quality people and hope for the best.

Corran Horn · Feb 21, 2007, 12:53 AM // 00:53

I've seen this happen. It seems that it would be better if it took two officers to approve the kicking of an individual before they could actually be kicked. This way two people have to be pissed off or just mean in order for this sort of thing to happen. That or just be really careful about who you decide to make an officer.

Evilsod · Feb 21, 2007, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Isn't completely random kicking of entire guilds usually caused by a hacker taking the piss?

If you promote people that unhinged to be in control of the ability to kick everyone thats your fault. Same as if you join a guild who's leader may do the same...

Theres a reason Officers exist above Members and below the Leader. The Leader trusts them. If he has no real reason to trust them yet puts em as officer anyway he's got no-one but himself to blame. Wouldn't be much point in trying to kick someone as an officer if you had to wait for the leader to come online to comfirm it, the leader is only 1 person, he can't be on 24/7.

Hell Raiser · Feb 21, 2007, 12:56 AM // 00:56

lmao @ Sir Skullcrasher's comment

The only real solution to this is to stop it before it can even start, do not promote anyone who is quick to anger, do not promote anyone you do not know (doesn't have to be in Real Life, just make sure you have played with them), a big thing I have seen is that people promote young children (~10-15or so) who simply are not mature enough to control their anger or take a joke and they tend to handle things in a very childish manor by destroying the guild as best they can.

Some other things can really harm your guild for promoting the wrong person, the issue the OP stated is one. There is also things like Rating that can ruin your guild for that ladder season, although this is not common because there is a req of half of the team being Guildies, but if the person really intends to do you harm they will get other guildies on their side.

Just be careful who you promote, have some kind of screening process or just keep everyone as members so the Leader has the only control.

EDIT: also a good thing to do as a Guild Leader, Officer or even member is document your guilds activites. It is not hard to take a screenie every so often of the Status and Guild Members. As well if you see an argument begin (even if you are a member) try to step in and break things up so it does not get out of hand, this is not only beneficial to the whole guild, but it may change peoples views of you for the better (as long as you handle "stepping in" maturely and don't just say "Shaddup you whiner babies").

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 21, 2007, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Officers need to be "johnny-on-the spot" response to guild management, especially when the Guild Master is not online. There's nothing wrong with officer rank having /gkick ability, you just have to appoint your officers accordingly.

I would advise Guilds not to have too many officers, keep the numbers down.

In other online games, guilds could become really large, in Guild Wars this isn't an issue because of a fairly low membership cap. Setting up a guild hierarchy is pretty straightforward and manageable.

Dutch Masterr · Feb 21, 2007, 01:38 AM // 01:38

keep in mind my guild isnt some small half-assed guild....the guy was an officer for a long time, and you cant tell me that theres something wrong when someone can just completley destroy a guild at will...while the leader isnt even online!

Evilsod · Feb 21, 2007, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

Officers need to be "johnny-on-the spot" response to guild management, especially when the Guild Master is not online. There's nothing wrong with officer rank having /gkick ability, you just have to appoint your officers accordingly.

I would advise Guilds not to have too many officers, keep the numbers down.

In other online games, guilds could become really large, in Guild Wars this isn't an issue because of a fairly low membership cap. Setting up a guild hierarchy is pretty straightforward and manageable.

Someone been watching V for Vendetta?

If someone begins begging to become, you can almost guarantee they're not officer material. Sadly some people give in to that crap...

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 21, 2007, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Someone been watching V for Vendetta?

If someone begins begging to become, you can almost guarantee they're not officer material. Sadly some people give in to that crap...

Haha, actually the phrase came into usage sometime around 1896.

But, I do watch BBC and BBC America.

The argument the OP is making is a very old one, but also very misguided. Virtue springs from free will, imposed restrictions will serve as a cage.

gameshoes3003 · Feb 21, 2007, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Ouch, well man, even though it would take a hell a lot of money, but in the Guild History you can track down most of the people that were kicked. I don't think it'll record all 85, but that's the way I've fixed past guild kicking or something wacky with the alliance.

Antheus · Feb 21, 2007, 03:14 AM // 03:14

"Starting new guild. First 5 members become officers."

And people are surprised why?

No matter who has the power, the power is abusable. It happens with leaders - what next, leaders can't kick anyone?

This is part of human nature. In GW, there are no consequences, so people are free to flip out.

The real problem for so many inter-player issues in GW is simply the complete anonymity. No safeguards can help with that.

If your guild was functional, you'll surely get back together.

Redfeather1975 · Feb 21, 2007, 03:28 AM // 03:28

It wouldn't hurt to have a better guild system.
Everquest 2's guild system blows Guild Wars' out of the water.

Navaros · Feb 21, 2007, 03:32 AM // 03:32

You can't "appoint officers properly" as a solution to this problem because you can never predict the behaviour of another person with certainty.

This has needed be fixed for ages. One of my Officers in an early Guild of mine also kicked a ton of people out of that Guild for no reason and without permission, many of whom were not on for weeks and there was no way to add them all to friends list to invite them back to the Guild when they come online.

It's not an issue of trust, he seemed like a great guy and we played together for many months before he was an Officer, during which he seemed totally responsible and trustworthy.

In reality, no one can be trusted, so having a major mechanic of the game that relies on trust is fundamentally problematic.

The current mechanic of Guild Officers being able to kick everyone without permission is a griefers' paradise, and there is no reason why it should be.

This does indeed need to be changed.

/signed

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 21, 2007, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

You can't "appoint officers properly" as a solution to this problem because you can never predict the behaviour of another person with certainty.

So, a more restrictive system that attempts to take responsibility out of the equation is the answer? It isn't about prediction, it is about sound judgment. It's a skill that you hone through experience usually over time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

One of my Officers in an early Guild of mine also kicked a ton of people out of that Guild for no reason and without permission, many of whom were not on for weeks and there was no way to add them all to friends list to invite them back to the Guild when they come online.

That is unfortunate but it is a problem based on personality not guild mechanics. The game allows you to choose who gets the power to /gkick. If you feel you can't trust anyone, don't have Officers in your Guild. Really, why have officers if they don't have your inherent trust?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

It's not an issue of trust, he seemed like a great guy and we played together for many months before he was an Officer, during which he seemed totally responsible and trustworthy.

In reality, no one can be trusted, so having a major mechanic of the game that relies on trust is fundamentally problematic.

It appears we are living in a day and age where nobody can be considered trustworthy. That is the problem. So many people are after the fantasy of a zero risk world that they atrophy the very social mechanisms that make us good people.

Being trustworthy is a virtue that must be earned. It's a quality that only becomes known to others when it is demonstrated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

The current mechanic of Guild Officers being able to kick everyone without permission is a griefers' paradise, and there is no reason why it should be.

This does indeed need to be changed.

/signed

The officer was given the implicit permission to /gkick once you made that person an officer. It seems obvious where the problem lies. The conceit is to believe that there can ever be 100% security from being human in a physical world.

If you don't trust the people, you make them untrustworthy.
-Tao Te Ching

Age · Feb 21, 2007, 06:00 AM // 06:00

The only person who does the kicking is me The Leader but the officers if I had more of them can promote and recruit.