Curse

Redfeather1975 · Feb 21, 2007, 08:28 PM // 20:28

This is a rather big suggestion to change skills. I hope before anyone says that it requires too much work to implement that they think about it and what it can bring to build making creativity.
It's a suggestion to introduce reduced energy cost if the skill's attribute is below a certain level.

There are a number of skills, a whole lot, that do very little at low attribute levels. They are not worth bringing at all unless you pump points into the line. Where does it get decided that a skill should do 1 point of damage at attribute lvl 1 and scale to 100 at lvl 16? What was the gameplan for introducing that damage range? Some skills are even detrimental to use at lower attribute levels. Was this intended to make skills unusable before a certain breakpoint is reached? Was it believed that anyone would abuse that skill at such a low level?
I see a potential design flaw and apart from revamping every skill or attribute line that suffers from this I'm suggesting a new functionality to scale energy costs of very specific skills to still make them somewhat usable.

Functionality Suggestion
This would be an additional functionality added to certain skills to reflect the reduced energy cost. That way only specific skills could be given the reduced cost at lower attribute levels.
A skill description would have a line at the end saying.

This skill's energy cost is reduced by x points.
X would scale downwards as you put more points into that attribute, so that on a skill that uses 15 energy, but is using a lower attribute it would read....
This skill's energy cost is reduced by 10 points.

That way only very specific skills could be tweaked that way.

I hope I explained it right.

Winterclaw · Feb 21, 2007, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Hpyothetical question: lets say someone used maelstrom at 0 points for 10e or 15e. It'll still give 10 seconds of spell interruptions to anyone in a small area.

Another question: should exhaustion effect someone more or less if they are over that breakpoint? For example if the skill is under 9 points should you only get 5e worth of exaustion or 15e worth?

And what about casting time and all that, should a 10e fireball cast slower and recharge longer than a 15e one?

Retribution X · Feb 21, 2007, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Hmm, I like it, But I can hear something coming, Namely, "If you don't like the damage, don't use the skill."

But as for me and my house,

/Signed

Only thing, certain elites could become rather powerful at low levels...

Redfeather1975 · Feb 21, 2007, 08:46 PM // 20:46

I'm changing the functionality so that it only affects certain skills in the original post. I think the changed functionality could work, for future skill tweaks and possible new skills added in future campaigns.

Thomas.knbk · Feb 21, 2007, 09:38 PM // 21:38

/notsigned
Attribute points are part of game balance.
Why would you take a skill that does 15 dmg for 15 energy? because it frees up attribute points for other skills.

Now, hypothetical example

skill one: (in the current system)
5e 1c 2r
Target foe takes 7.....50 dmg

skill two
10e 1c 2r
Target foe takes 40...140 dmg

Why would you ever take the first skill, paying 5 energy and 97 attribute points for 50 dmg if you can take the second one, spending 5/6 energy and maybe 6 attribute points for 50 dmg?

/notsigned imo.

Random Monk · Feb 21, 2007, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Interesting idea, would make some skills more usable at lower levels.

How about instead of being based on attribute placement, have it based on the character's level? This way at mid to higher levels, the benefit disappears completely.

gameshoes3003 · Feb 21, 2007, 11:07 PM // 23:07

This reminds me of things Like WoW, Baldur's Gate, Chrono Trigger, FFVII, and things like that. The higher level, it costs more....
But based off of Thomas's post, he does make a good point about choosing between skills.

BryanM · Feb 21, 2007, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Don't like it.

In the very old days, life sacrifice wasn't a percentage, it was a static number. So at higher skill levels, it cost more life.

This discouraged people from putting points into the skill line - there were specific breakpoints people would aim for.

More points should make a skill generally better. Fragile Virulence withstanding.

Redfeather1975 · Feb 21, 2007, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Sorry everyone. It wasn't suggested as a functionality change to incompass all skills. It was a suggestion to make some skills that just aren't in popular attribute lines to be more appealing.

There are skills where it's just not worth it to bring over another skill because the energy cost is reflecting the potential effect of the skill at lvl 16 attribute. These few skills fall in certain attributes that are highly ineffective to max out, therefore they are not being used. I'm not making this up!
I was hoping that a system to tweak these skills to allow their use without the trouble of revamping an entire attribute line would be feasible and require less development time.

My inspiration actually was from the mesmer Attribute Inspiration. This attribute line has a few interesting skills that sadly will not get used due to the whole line being one that is less effective if you specialize in it, than the other mesmer attributes.

The game currently has many skills that are actually detrimental when used at a lower attribute level. This means those skills are pointless unless you specialize in that attribute, in that if you try to use the skill at a lower attribute you are actually increasing the enemies attack output, or losing energy when trying to gain it. That is not right. And those skills fall in attributes that are just not specialized in because it's not the type of attribute you can center builds around, they were designed as supplementary attributes.
I'm sorry that I can't communicate very well what I'm trying to point out in the game. I do see high energy costs in certain attributes that are designed as supplementary attributes as a design flaw because the energy costs are based on the maximum lvl of the attribute, and I hoped that a functionality addition could correct it.

BahamutKaiser · Feb 21, 2007, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Thomas example is broken, obviously if the energy scaled with damage, the damage and cost ratio would scale equally. A strong spell would offer equivalent damage per energy cost if the cost scaled with the damage.

The only real issue is that you may be able to take stronger spells which do more damage, and use them without several attribute points providing nearly effective damage to cost ratio, but recast time also limits many powerful spells.

The point of attribute points is to further limit the functionality of each character. The division of skills by profession are part of limitations that enforce cooperation, but even in a single profession there is often a variety of skills which may allow them to cover many roles, and division skills by attribute and attribute point allocation further limit your characters function to foster cooperation and dependancy.

From the importance of team gameplay, to the lore itself, skill limitation is an significant aspect. For this reason I would have to reject this notion, wile some interesting crossover classes and attributes may be fun and enjoyable, general multifuction empowerment is not a good feature to the game.

Redfeather1975 · Feb 22, 2007, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Well put Bahamut. I understand what you mean.
I still suggest this functionality for certain skills though.
And I'd also hope that certain skills' effects are scaled better in the future too. I look at some mesmer and necromancer skills and wonder why they are even scaling the way they are as the skill is very bad before a certain attribute breakpoint. 3 second cast to do less damage than a wand attack? Using 10 energy to gain 3, thereby losing 7 energy?
It seems like the effect scaling is geared towards a maxed attribute, yet the developers must know by the type of skills they put in an attribute line, that the line is supplementary and not going to get maxed out.
I've tried so hard to see the point in maxing Inpsiration and as yet found no build that is effective in doing so. Inpiration appears to be supplementary, yet requires a large pool of points invested for many of the skills to have a positve effect.
Perhaps in the end it may be required to revamp attribute lines by tweaking most of it's skills, although I imagine it would require more testing and possibly cause a number of imbalances over the course of time which may never get ironed out properly.

BahamutKaiser · Feb 22, 2007, 01:08 AM // 01:08

I look at Elementist in general and get disappointed. Alot of improvement has taken place, but still, crappy AoE and recharge, DoT which does nearly nothing, and a great number of abilities through the game which don't work well enough to justify their use, their attribute, or even an entire profession.

There are always outstanding factors, like the use of and an energy stealing skill that cost 10 energy, but with max expertise only cost 5. Or the use of many expensive elementist skills with dual attunement. But radical factors don't justify general weakness, this is what I have been bringing up from be begining with DoT spells and ShadowSteps, and now paragon shouts. Now "Incoming" last what? 3 seconds? And "Their on Fire" is now 10 seconds, even though it offers protection against foes on fire, of which you cannot burn for more than 3-5 seconds if even on a group of foes.

There are a select number of skills which are nearly worthless if not empowered, that is part of simple limitation, it is the skills and even entire attributes which offer little to no usefulness because of overly drawn costs, reductions and recast times even at full attribute use in most situations because they are significantly effective in limited builds, and more importantly, arn't covered by an effective set of counters.

Any changes will involve some redevelopement and alteration of related and synergized effects to compensate and restrict their use. Change is acceptable, weakness and disability arn't.

divinechancellor · Feb 22, 2007, 03:35 AM // 03:35

If the suggested changes were implemented, i have a feeling i'd see lots more than just pure fire nukers, or pure earth or air or water: Ele's mastering all 4 branches: prismatic armor

Redfeather1975 · Feb 22, 2007, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Prismatic armour was made as a legend.
It doesn't really exist.
I know this because I tried to buy it and it said 'this armor isn't really available, it's not usable!'
LOL

MithranArkanere · Feb 22, 2007, 03:41 PM // 15:41

For unlinked skills, is not a problem, they are fixed no matter what you do.

But there are some linked skills that have no variable properties, like Plague Sending. They are just linked to an attribute but they don't use it, increasing poins won't make the skill better.
For those skills, they could have less use of energy with increasing levels or something like that.

Priest Of Sin · Feb 22, 2007, 05:11 PM // 17:11

mwahahaha, this would be awesome. Eviscerate @ 2 strikes of adren... *drool*

Or how about Meteor Shower @ 15 energy? Energy Burn @ 2 Energy? Blinding Surge @ 4 energy? And assassin attacks.... Unsuspecting Strike= 1 energy. Barrage @ 1 energy? And flare @ 1 energy? People dump points into their attacks to make them worth using, man. Imagine, a Searing Flames group that could spam SF for 5 energy a shot? It'd remove Glowing Gaze from the build and would probably add Meteor Shower.

/notsigned

linh · Feb 22, 2007, 05:18 PM // 17:18

No way. Many skills are almost useless at low attribute points is intended design, and it is for balance.
/notsigned