Curse

Zuranthium · Feb 08, 2007, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by ca_aok

I can't believe I actually read this filth called a thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ca_aok

In conclusion, please don't make useless suggestions to unbalance the game simply because you're bored of actually using skills, and because you want your favourite class to destroy everything. It seems that Guild Wars may be a tad above your capacity, you should perhaps try playing Go Fish and work your way up from there.

I can't believe you actually want to be taken seriously after mentioning the words "Doylak Signet".

FYI, you made no arguments in your post. If you're going to debate you need to actually have ideas and not just make huge, bitter overstatements that pertain to nothing relevant. President Bush might get away with it, but you're not that rich.

~Z

Shendaar · Feb 08, 2007, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ca_aok

I can't believe I actually read this filth called a thread.

Hey, I'm bored of hitting stances on my warrior. Let's have them auto-activate whenever they recharge! In fact, lets have dismember auto cast when you have adrenaline too! It's boring to cast skills! Hey, lets give doylak signet +100 armor as well, since you get slower move speed!

While we're at it, using the searing flames+glowing gaze combo is boring. Let's have searing flames and glowing gaze autocast on the centermost enemy in a group! You shouldn't have to choose a target to attack, that's just annoying!

Oh, and let's change light of deliverance to autocast too... that 1 second casting time is SOOOO ANNOYING OMG.

And lets add a skill to every class that auto activates, gives +1000 armor, gives you 95% block and evade, and +500 holy damage! After all, who wants to play the game when they can have the computer do it for them?

In conclusion, please don't make useless suggestions to unbalance the game simply because you're bored of actually using skills, and because you want your favourite class to destroy everything. It seems that Guild Wars may be a tad above your capacity, you should perhaps try playing Go Fish and work your way up from there.

I think you just fail at understanding this thread. You are probably one of those person that just keep getting owned by the SP+BoA combo and think the assassin class as a whole is overpowered because of one build.

Symbol · Feb 09, 2007, 03:52 AM // 03:52

1) Assassin autoattack dps does not suck. At 16/9 DM/CS it's comparable to a sword warrior with 16/9 SM/Strength.

2) Wrt disrupting stab I'd much rather have it stay as it is, but with a .5 sec activation time. That would make it far more useful as an interrupt.

3) My list of changes to the leads/offhands:

a) Unsuspecting strike: 5...41...53 unconditional damage, 5...41...53 conditional damage. It's a 10E lead that only does damage. Might as well make it more reliable.

b) Disrupting Stab: .5 sec activation. Leads need to be useful in multiple capacities. If I could throw this out as a reliable interrupt I wouldn't mind having to restart my combo chain.

c) Desperate Strike: Half the +damage should be unconditional. It's a cheaper version of unsuspecting, therefore it deserves a similar change.

d) Leaping Mantis Sting: .5 second activation time. Conditional cripple on a moderate recharge,making it a fast activation should increase the chances of applying the condition.

e) Black Mantis Thrust: 5E. This is a badly designed skill, the most attractive hexes in the assassin skill lines are snares anyway. At 10E it's a joke, at 5E it might find use in some builds.

f) Dancing Daggers: Change to offhand. This is in deadly arts, has a long activation time compared to regular dagger attacks (1 second vs .66 seconds), and does nothing except some fairly mediocre elemental damage. Making it an offhand would give assassins a reliable combo starter on a fast recharge-I'd seriously consider it then.

g) Mantis touch: 5s recharge. It's an uncovered cripple. On a 15 second recharge. I can take siphon speed and get a more powerful effect unconditionally, on a 5 sec recharge.

BlackSephir · Feb 09, 2007, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Quote:

1) Assassin autoattack dps does not suck. At 16/9 DM/CS it's comparable to a sword warrior with 16/9 SM/Strength.

It does suck... You have a chance to double strike but that doesnt apply for skills, and it is slightly different from IAS... Way of the Assassin coulde be good- remove x % chance of double strike, add IAS for x...y seconds

Malicious Strike- change it to off-hand that requires foe under condition to hit, now it is pretty much useless

And elites that totally need to do smth...
Seeping Wound, Golden Skull Strike, Wastrell's Collapse...

stasmaster · Feb 09, 2007, 11:40 AM // 11:40

I posted 2 massive replies to this thread, and to be honest, it starts to hurt my brain to go through all of your feedback, zuranthium, and with the second post, all your feedback and my feedback to the OP. So, basically, I'm going to keep this short. You have partially swayed me on the GPB thing, largely because things like shadow prison exist, where meeting that while hexed condition is easy. I still think that while enchanted, especially in a gvg build at the stand is actually playable, whereas while hexed is a joke. Though, in a way, that justifies your suggestion to make it 5 energy: encourage sins in a different role.

I was going to write up a situation where - ignoring sin survivability - a stand sin would be viable, but then I ran into a problem. Sins can't do much. Sins can't lineback, and they can't really shut down anything consistently. In theory, sins can spike, and they can pressure. Sin pressure is negligible because the combo system gives the opposition fifty diffent ways to shut down and disable them. Moreover, sins are easy spike candidates, so, if a team ever choses to lineback the sin, he pretty much has to retreat because of the pressure he'd be taking. So, pressure is out for sins, regardless of how much damage they do. Staying in the fight for sustained amounts of time will be punished more and more the higher up you go in the ladder. The other option sins have is spiking. Turns out, sin spikes suck, too. All the money spike skills on assassin are dual attacks, largely because of twisting fangs, and also because they hit twice in rapid succession. In between spikes, however, an ele will throw up wards, a warrior will apply more pressure, a mesmer will throw out diversions. What will an assassin do? autoattack? present a spike target, most likely. Assassins need to have something to differentiate themselves from other physical classes if they will see play in GvG outside of ganks. Warriors lineback and pressure, paragons buff, dervishes are just nuts. All assassins can do is just sit there. A warder with ob flame or a heal party spammer with lightning orb would be prefferable to an assassin. Because assassins are pretty much incapable of playing the pressure role and get pwnt in the face by alot of common things out there, the only recourse they have is to go where they don't need to pressure and get pwnt in the face by what the enemy brought: the gank.

I still disagree with alot of your changes and I would go through the OP and point out how none of the changes help the assassin do better at the stand in the face of things like blinds, distracting shots, aegises and the like, but I would shoot myself half way. If you're tying to make assassins playable, you have to make them versatile, if you want to make them versatile, you have to buff a different assassin role (stand pressure and support) without buffing their current role (ganking) and aside from a skill or two, I don't see where you did any of that in your suggestions.

I would, however, like to point out a different buff to two of the skills you have up there. golden skull strike, and it's somewhat natural partner, sharpen daggers.
This pair would work quite well together and provide an option outside of temple strike for that much loved daze. Sharpen acts like those cripshot/broadhead/bruning arrow ranger's apply poison. A cover condition, and that's what golden skull was missing. At the same time, sharpen daggers is an enchant, so it meets skull's condition for the daze, and there, you have an offhand attack that just dazed and covered it.
Two problems arise:
- Considering the length of the daze, and that you need to reapply sharpen each time, the activation of shapren daggers is kind of silly.
- Even in an instant activation sharpen, this won't get play because it's extra effort for about the same effect.

Proposed solution?
- Golden Skull does not require lead attack.

All of a sudden, you have a spammabale daze that is covered, and does not require any attacks to signal it, and you've got a sweet way to go into twisting fangs. Needing to put up with sharpen daggers would be the balancing effect of it. Outside of RA/TA/HA, daze has it's own weaknesses, but that is unrelated to the build.

Symbol, assassin autoattacking dps is comparable to that of an autoattacking sword warrior, but sword warriors are the lowest dps warriors and have a dps cieling that is 40% higher than an assassin that is sustainable for as long as the enemy allows you. If you're a mesmer and assassin is autoattacking you, you cast a few spells till you're done then run around. If a warrior frenzies in your face, even a sword warrior, you'd better move.

I've been scrolling up and down in this post, adding things to different paragraphs as they have been popping into my had, so, I don't know how coherent this is, but i think this just about sums up all I have to say about the subject.

djbartek · Feb 09, 2007, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Ok, this one will be short.

I just want to say that while reading a similiar thread on other GW forum, I found another rather interesting suggestion to WotA(made by Raven Flameheart):

- Way of the Assassin.
Current flaw : improved crit chance isn't much better than crit eye, is conditional, and unlike crit eye, doesn't give any extra bonus.
Suggested change : Change to : "For 20 seconds, if you are under the effects of an Enchantment, your attacks have a +10...36% chance to land a critical hit, and on each critical you deal +4...22 damage".
Why this would be better : Improved crit chance buffed akin to Crit Eye. Increased damage would make for some nice pressure, and in combination with Critical Strike, would be on-level with a dual paired with an elite. It would not be so overpowered that every build would pack it, but it would be an interesting choice for some roles. Would make A/R with a bow a choice between this + Disrupting accuacy vs crit barrage (with both choices having strong points, creating balance)

- djbartek

Zuranthium · Feb 09, 2007, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by stasmaster

Sin pressure is negligible because the combo system gives the opposition fifty diffent ways to shut down and disable them.

I still disagree with alot of your changes and I would go through the OP and point out how none of the changes help the assassin do better at the stand in the face of things like blinds, distracting shots, aegises and the like. If you're tying to make assassins playable, you have to make them versatile, you have to buff a different assassin role (stand pressure and support) without buffing their current role (ganking) and aside from a skill or two, I don't see where you did any of that in your suggestions.

Well, camping a B-flasher on ANY melee is going to screw them up (minus someone with Sight Beyond Sight).

You could similarly camp an interrupt ranger on a Dragon Slash Warrior and make sure that he never gets anything more than a Sever Artery off. Or even on any Hammer Warrior and make sure he never gets the initial knockdown off that he needs for his chain. Yet, those builds see play.

They see play because (1) even without any attack skills, a Frenzied Warrior is a lot of pressure by itself (2) Warriors aren't easily spiked.

Assassin's do need versatility to make up for those things a Warrior has. They already HAVE the skills there to provide versatility too, it's just that almost all of them cost too much and/or take too long to recharge and/or have some kind of conditionality that is too limiting. I think my post addressed those problems. It's the poor value of many Assassin skills that is really hurting what they can do, not the actual effect.

Zuranthium · Feb 09, 2007, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by djbartek

Ok, this one will be short.

I just want to say that while reading a similiar thread on other GW forum, I found another rather interesting suggestion to WotA(made by Raven Flameheart):

- Way of the Assassin.
Current flaw : improved crit chance isn't much better than crit eye, is conditional, and unlike crit eye, doesn't give any extra bonus.

Suggested change : Change to : "For 20 seconds, if you are under the effects of an Enchantment, your attacks have a +10...36% chance to land a critical hit, and on each critical you deal +4...22 damage".
Why this would be better : Improved crit chance buffed akin to Crit Eye. Increased damage would make for some nice pressure, and in combination with Critical Strike, would be on-level with a dual paired with an elite. It would not be so overpowered that every build would pack it, but it would be an interesting choice for some roles.

This change would be good too, although the "while enchanted" part still needs to be dropped. That's trash. The additional damage bonus that's listed here might be a bit too high as well.

~Z

Symbol · Feb 09, 2007, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

It does suck... You have a chance to double strike but that doesnt apply for skills, and it is slightly different from IAS... Way of the Assassin coulde be good- remove x % chance of double strike, add IAS for x...y seconds

What part of autoattack damage don't you understand? Once you start adding skills into the mix the whole situation changes, because assassin attack skills have generally more +damage or lower recharges or both (not to mention the duals), then their equivalents from other classes.

Yanman.be · Feb 09, 2007, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Temple Strike 5 energy and let it choose random between blind or daze.

BahamutKaiser · Feb 09, 2007, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Against an unprotected target Assassin can deal damage over time simular to sword, but sword damage over time is a lame comparison, once you take in obvious factors like sword being one hand and allowing an off hand, your only real comparison is daggers to hammer, comparing two two-handed weapons, in that comparison it sucks, and all of warriors weapons deal more damage, providing a higher threshhold against higher armor foes. The vast majority of the time, Assassins DPS just attacking is less than warrior.

Than you add in the factor that he is the least defended melee, Warrior has much better armor and maybe even damage reductions, Dervish has powerful self sustaining capabilities, making him comparable with Monk survival with a bit more armor.

The key feature to assassin that always should have been stressed is surprise. That is the true premise of the assassin identity, and the core of it's effectiveness. He should be able to shadowstep regularly in and out of battle, making him a very temporary target, and allowing him to jump, dump, and retreat before he becomes the target of spikes. Problem always has been that he cannot do that regularly, it is bad enough that he must bring at least 2 skills to jump in and out, or an elite which isn't a wonderful option nor does it ensure a good retreat.

On an assassin, skill slots are the most prohibitive cost, they need a combination of skills, often including 2 off hands and 2 dual attacks, and primers like hexes, having a healing and rez skill, they really don't have the skill slots to bring 2 shadowstep skills, if that cost is paid, than the 2 shadowstep skills they bring should be golden, it is a neccessary suppliment to Assassins survival, and a high cost to pay for a very limited skill slot.

Until surprise becomes a significant and common part of Assassin builds, they will never really define themselves from Warrior, or be enjoyable to play.

Right now about the only good shadowstep option is beguiling haze. It has enough effect to make it's reasonable recast time acceptable as well as bring advancing to your technique. Shadow Prison is alright, but requiring deadly arts and barely meeting minimum needs, it should be more frequent. The rest are simply worthless, 30 seconds would be too long, 45 basicly puts them out of commision, an Assassin needs to jump on his enemy more than once every 45 seconds, may as well be once period per assault.

It is the surprise that makes the class fun, interesting, and balanced, they can tinker all they want with his other capabilities, but until shadowsteping becomes frequent, their missing the mark.

Symbol · Feb 09, 2007, 05:28 PM // 17:28

I'd like to see viper's defense and heart of shadow keep the teleporation aspect, but increase the range of the shadow step to "in the area" and "in earshot" respectively. That would actually make them useful.

Zuranthium · Feb 09, 2007, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

Temple Strike 5 energy and let it choose random between blind or daze.

Yuck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

I'd like to see viper's defense and heart of shadow keep the teleportation aspect, but increase the range of the shadow step to "in the area" and "in earshot" respectively. That would actually make them useful.

I don't think it would help the skill to make it so that you randomly overextend sometimes...

~Z

djbartek · Feb 09, 2007, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

Temple Strike 5 energy and let it choose random between blind or daze.

This would be a BIG nerf to this skill. The power of this Elite comes from the fact that you can disable both melee and casters with it. Making it work in the way you suggest would simply make the skill pretty much useless.

Maybe you like to gamble, but I don't.

Also I would like to note about one needed change that is missing here:

Hidden Caltrops: Remove "while moving" condition.

Why? Because right now to trigger it you need to have either:
- Dancing Daggers/Disrupting Dagger etc., which is usually waste of your precious skill slot(there are imho better and more helpful things to take)
- Speed boost, which imo partially negates the reason for taking HC(why take it, when you can just take LMS with speed boost and get the same effect with the same effort WITHOUT the elite?).

EDIT: and one more thing

Some idea came to my mind while I was thinking about new Weakness...

It now causes -1 to all attributes right?

What if Mark of Insecurity caused similiar effect?

After thinking a while, I think that -1 or -2 to all attributes could be better than that -10 AL, while not seriously overpowering the skill.

What do you think, Zuranthium?

- djbartek

Symbol · Feb 10, 2007, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

I don't think it would help the skill to make it so that you randomly overextend sometimes...

It wouldn't help much in a battle at the stand, but it could be pretty useful in a skirmish when you could get some breathing room from a pursuer.

The best way to make the assassin viable (outside of something like SP spike) in a big battle with team support is to give them more reliable, faster recharging combo openers that don't suck. They already have potentially incredible pressure with moebius - death blossom which isn't fragile at all thanks to how fast the skills recharge, all they need is a good way to open the combo without requiring too much fuss. The black XXX attacks are okay if you have other hexes in your build, but that's too limiting. That's why I suggested making dancing daggers an offhand, though I would definitely consider disrupting stab + exhausting assault if the former was a fast attack.

Siva arwen · Feb 10, 2007, 04:11 AM // 04:11

To OP: I really like your idea of all those skills but I still Disagree for some skills. But I want to tell you that your ideas is right, Assassin really needs those kind of changed, improved and buff. Assassin really need more styles to play this Class.

Some Suggestions:

Heart of Shadow - This skill need to be shadowstep forward , and what is the point of random?

Shadow Form - Right now i really love this skill, lol, I really love it when someone using it and i have Expunge Enchantments, after i did it 2 or 3 times to that person and then he left the game. What is the point of using elite skill and kill yourself?

Lift Enchantment - This skill need to remove Ench more than one Ench, there is noway we use this skill instead of Falling Spider.

Dancing Dagger - This skill should add Shadowstep to your target and 10 or 12sec of recharge. I think Assassin need some half-range Shadowstep.

Swap - You got the big point here. Making this skill to swap anyone is the best idea to improve Assassin class. But this skill shouldn't use by anyone instead of Assassin(Fails to swap with Critical Strikes 4 or less.). 60sec for recharge is way too much, we should just start with 10e, 1/4sec cast, 30sec recharge and let see how thing is going and tweak it later. Or the other idea make it like AoD When you stop maintaining Swap, you and your target foe return to the original location.

IMO: Assassin shouldn't have 2 sec cast skill to your target, we all knew Assassin is type of person who did everything very fast to their target.
And some ppl say if we buff Assassin too much it will be overpower, but those ppl are completely wrong because Assassin doesnt need a buff to be overpowered/overkilled but they need a lot of buff/improved/changed to make them more enjoyable, I'm really sick of "SP ftw".

Zuranthium · Feb 10, 2007, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siva arwen

Lift Enchantment - This skill need to remove Ench more than one Ench, there is noway we use this skill instead of Falling Spider.

I forgot to list this turd of a skill in my original post.

It needs an entirely new mechanic but I don't know what.

~Z

djbartek · Feb 10, 2007, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I forgot to list this turd of a skill in my original post.

It needs an entirely new mechanic but I don't know what.

~Z

"Hex Spell. While under influence of this Hex, the next time target foe is hit by an attack while moving, that foe is knocked down. When target foe is knocked down, he loses one enchantment and this Hex ends.

I still want to point out the lack of (imo necessary) Hidden Caltrops change on your list(remove "while moving" condition)

- djbartek

Zuranthium · Feb 10, 2007, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by djbartek

"Hex Spell. While under influence of this Hex, the next time target foe is hit by an attack while moving, that foe is knocked down. When target foe is knocked down, he loses one enchantment and this Hex ends.

The name "Lift Enchantment" doesn't sound like a hex to me?

Quote:

Originally Posted by djbartek

I still want to point out the lack of (imo necessary) Hidden Caltrops change on your list(remove "while moving" condition)

- djbartek

I think that change would make it overpowered. I'd put it every single Warrior I made. I honestly don't see anything wrong with the skill as it is. It's great when combined with AOE spells.

~Z

Symbol · Feb 10, 2007, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Hidden caltrops is pretty lame IMO. You need a shadowstep to make use of it because you need to catch up with your target in the first place. What's the point of a snare if you can't even trigger it until you get close?

IMO, at the very least the cast time should go down to 1/4sec, people use the otherwise unspectacular enduring toxin as a hex for BSS/BLS because of its fast cast, doing so for hidden caltrops would make it more attractive.