Curse

Winterclaw · Feb 28, 2007, 06:41 AM // 06:41

I was very tempted to put this suggestion in the main second of Sardelac as it isn't so much a class, but a change of the game. Here's the concept in its simplest terms: a class who's primary skill allows him to mimic having skill points in any one other class. Also he'd be allowed to have two subclasses instead of one. Here's how it'd work: his primary skill line would have one skill for every existing profession (and he'd get two new ones with each expansion).

This is the generic form of that skill:
Tricks of the (class) Trade
Profession. While this skill is equipped, you have 0...9...12 points in the primary skill line of (class). You may only have one profession skill at a time. (It'd be like an elite in that manner so you can't have someone with 10 points in strength and energy storage).

I'm not sure if this class should have any other skills in it. If it does, I think they should be fairly rounded out, but nothing special.

The AL for the class's armor would be 70 and the base regen would be 3 pips, but you could have varients that are like some of the armors for the other classes, but give less of a bonus. A warrioresque armor would give you +15 al vs phy. A rangeresque armor would give you +10 Al vs one type of elemental damage.

So why add this class, and why make it a core one (meaning someone from any campaign can make one)? Because there are a lot of people that don't want to play through all the chapters several times for each character. Trust me when I say it gets old after the 2nd or 3rd run through.

This is the class for those people. They'd give up some specalization in order to get a class that plays kind of like all the other ones, but not as good as any of them. Or maybe someone doesn't know what he wants, likes to try out a ton of things, isn't sure he'd like class X, etc., he'd be able to play around using this class. Or perhaps he's new to GW, picked up an expansion and realized there are only 4 slots and 8 "real" classes.

So in return for more generalized armor, one skill slot always taken up if you want to have the bonus from another class, and a weaker primary for that class, you'd get versitality.

actionjack · Feb 28, 2007, 06:52 AM // 06:52

I like many of your work, Winterclaw.. but unsure about this one.

For one thing, I am still bit uncertain how it work.

Also there are many other ways of solveing the problem of the game force people to play through several times.

If anything, would just by pass the new proffession thing, instead just allow flexable switching of primary classes, like the 2ndaries.

And even if so, won't you still have to grind the skill points to get your skills (which sometime mission is the faster way to do that).

JUst don't think fundementally it will be fun. But again, I am not one of those people who does not feel obligated to play ever character once, so its not fully my place to say no for them.

Winterclaw · Feb 28, 2007, 07:17 AM // 07:17

How are you uncertain about it working?

It's true there are other ways to keep people from playing through the game several times, but I think this one will have less impact on things overall. Skill points probably will be the "big problem" of this class, but if you are going for UAS on this character, or just like to spread your skills around in general, you'll end up with more bang for your buck. For example in one mission, your party needs a monk and the next they need a nuker. If you have both subclasses, you could switch them around as you need to, which would help in you getting in to a group.

Another way it could help is that with this "class", you'd be able to unlock elites for multiple classes and still have a semi-effective whatever you are right now. Yes you could unlock them anyways for 2-3 characters, but if you think about it in terms of grind, if I want woh for both my monk, my e/mo, and my me/mo, I need to unlock it 3 times for 3 skill points and 3 plat. So overall grindage is down.

BTW, I do like playing all the classes for the most part (save for necro) but I'd still use this type of PC so I can get through a chapter once and complete it with my other characters at my leisure. To me, this is more of a pratical class
than a this is what I want to play class.

PS. This could have interesting PvP applications as you could "hide" which class you had your profession skill in. Is that Ad/Mo/W playing a whammo in disguise or a monk in disguise? In upper level pvp this would make scouting and learning the other guy's tendancies all that more important as well as giving teams the option to trick the other guys by running a build that they normally don't.

In some pvp matches, particularly with FotM builds, it's easier to tell what the other guys are running just by looking at their primaries. With this, you can't just see 4 warriors, 2 rangers, and 2 necros and instantly know it's IWAY. Or could could see 8 people with Ad/E/x or Ad/N/x and have to decide if it's a spike group, a trick, or something in between.

actionjack · Feb 28, 2007, 06:17 PM // 18:17

one question...

Hows this not the same and/or better than a suggestion for free primary switching system?

Or how is this compare to the suggested free-use-of-all-unlocked-skills system?

And since Ad can only support 2 prof, and there are 10 right now, won't that still mean people still need to play 5 characters, and do mission/grind to get all the necessary skill points if they aim for UAS?

Just some questions to think about...

Winterclaw · Feb 28, 2007, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Good questions AJ. I'll try my best to answer them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionjack

Hows this not the same and/or better than a suggestion for free primary switching system?

The main benefit of this idea is it keeps things easier for the devs. If you switch from a male warrior to a male sassi, your base body type is going to be a lot differnet and unbale to use the existing armors without a lot of work from the devs. Or there's the problem of you face/hair not being right for your new class. So you would eliminate those problems that would require the devs to do a lot of work to get through.

Plus with this system you get more versitality with one character, but it isn't without a drawback. Meaning if you want to be a tank, you should still make a warrior who could do better because he would the have warrior armor, use warrior runes, and have more than 12 points in strength.

Finally it doesn't render extra character slots useless unless you want a PC that looked different. If they had a free character switching system, you'd pretty much only need 1 PC. And once that PC got to 20, you wouldn't need a PvP char at all unless there are some elites/skills you haven't unlocked and can't afford in terms of money or Skill points.

So it's easier for the devs, not as versitile as free switching of primary and secondaries, and it gives people a reason to have more than one PC, but doesn't make them have 5-8 if they want to try a lot of things out or need to help a guildie on a mission.

Quote:

Or how is this compare to the suggested free-use-of-all-unlocked-skills system?

You are still only limited to two classes to choose your skills from for the most part. A free use system would mean I could go 10+1+1 swords, 9 restoration, 9 water magic for conjure frost, and 8 protection. So for the most part, he's still limited to only two real classes to draw his skills from at a time.

Quote:

And since Ad can only support 2 prof, and there are 10 right now, won't that still mean people still need to play 5 characters, and do mission/grind to get all the necessary skill points if they aim for UAS?

The adventurer can support two at a time. He can still use/unlock them from all classes. For example an Ad/W/Mo would be an adventurer with w/mo as his sub class, but he could easily switch to Ad/De/Rit. All he has to do is change it in town to any professions he's unlocked.

That clear things up?

actionjack · Mar 01, 2007, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Thx for the reply, Winterclaw.

They are somewhat reasonable answer. Granted I could drop the issue here and now, but for the fun of things, will pursude deeper. (afterall, that is part of the fun of the foum)

For Question one. Yes, the character model would be differnt, and considering the amount of work needed to redo the character animation and skin and such, it is not feastible. But what I had in mind if when you switch primary, your model would switch as well (the hair and face is another issue though), and so goes for your armor. There are many other issue to it as well, so its not a system I would go with, but just a example point.

On Q2, Its not to suggest you could take on any attribute, but rather just a popular suggestion on how to better solve the issue of skill-point-grind, elite-skill-captures, and the force-replay of new characters.

One of important thing Ad will miss is the idenity that is associated with each of class. For now, when you play as War/something, people will automatically assume you are a Tanker or a melee spiker. This solve some time in explaining what you do while you are LFG, and better give a feel of who you are facing in PVP. But with Ad, this system will be broken.

And another thing, it will mean the death to the Armors Fashions and unique hair-styleing that each proff has.

------------------------------------
On a side note, I was thinking of a Sub-class system as solution to the overwhelme feeling several people to new proffessions (thought I have no trouble with that). Its somewhat similar in few respect to the Adventurer, but still different. Will try to make another thread about that.... maybe....

Winterclaw · Mar 01, 2007, 12:34 AM // 00:34

I don't think it would be impossible to change the model. So your idea could work just so long as make chaning the primarys possible, but that would give you another problem: armor. If your armor doesn't change with your class, you'd need to have one suit of armor for every primary at least. So you'd have a storage nightmare in the making.

For your second question, free use of all skills would work, but what about skills in the primary attributes? A lot of those would still be a problem to use unless you can put skill points into two primaries, and that would be a new can of worms open.

I think you are right that the Ad would miss the identity of each class, but on the other hand, if someone needed a nuker or a monk or a tank, they'd be likely to invite the adventurer just because he could substitute into any of those roles. And to explain what you are, all you have to do is shift-click on one of your skills. Groups probably would be wary of them, in the beginning at least, but after that it would be "that AD could probably do what we need". And like I said, in PvP some groups might absolutely love having PCs that you can't instantly tell what's what.

I don't think fashion will go away though as you'll still have people who love their W/mos, els, sassis, etc. They'll always be there. I think you'll just see people who don't have time for 5 characters to use their favorite one or two and have an adventurer.

BahamutKaiser · Mar 01, 2007, 06:32 PM // 18:32

This actually doesn't really belong in Class concepts, nor really is a class concept. It would be interesting if we were allowed a feature which granted us multiple class combinations, but exsisting class combinations, we can not even ultilze all the features available in a 2 class combination anyway, so it would be better to increase the number of maximum attribute points that way exsisting 2 class combinations could utlize high effectiveness in several attributes instead of trying to combine even more classes when you can only use runes in one and only develope 3 to 4 attributes without having significantly undervalued stats on included skills.

For instance, it would be better if a Warrior could generously invest in Strength, Tactics, Weapon Attribute and Blood Magic than it would be if he had exsisting attribute points to invest in Weapon Attribute, Healing Magic and Fire Magic..... using 3 or 4 attributes from more than 2 classes with exsisting attribute points isn't even as good as having more attribute points to develope what we already have with 2 classes.

Personally, I think it would be great if we had another hundred attribute points to develope more attributes, it would make builds alot more diverse and gameplay alot more exciting.

actionjack · Mar 02, 2007, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Sorry to be a dog and keep on chewing this bone here, but just thought of another counter point off random... (but I know you like to reply to them anyhow)

You forgot to take in one of the "element of fun" that GW is design for, and that is the freedom and the fun of making your "builds". This is of couse aiming at what you said about Ad will allow people to better fit into differnt roles. But building up your character to fit differnt role is suppose to be part of the fun! Thus a Monk can certainly be as tough of a tanker as any Warrior (try a Mo/Elm with lots Earth elemental skills), as well as switch to a Spiker (something like a Smithing Mo/Me, with Me to better support its energy), things like that. So you don't need to switch your primary to fit into differnt roles, but just squeeze your brain juice to figure out how the role would best fit you(r character). With Ad, it would take out part of this fun of building characters.

So thats another reason I found it difficult to support an Ad class....

Winterclaw · Mar 02, 2007, 09:07 PM // 21:07

True, but some people find that being a jack of all trades is fun. In a way, you could actually have more freedom to design a wider variety of builds, but with one constraint: you won't be as good as a specialist.

So while you definately do have some flexibality in the existing classes to switch things around a little, it isn't perfect. For example, while an E/mo can heal, he's better off using spells that heal the group like Heal Party or Aegis since he doesn't have that DF bonus he needs. With the AD, I could swtich between the two depending on if I need DF more or more energy.

And with the AD, you can try out a lot of things and find what suits you and your playstyle quicker. If you've never played ranger for example and want to try it out, you can pick up the ranger class and a few skills in it pretty easily and try it out.