Curse

cellardweller · Feb 09, 2007, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

People would be even more motivated to join and build stronger guilds and community.

The way to achieve this is to make it easier to do so by providing better ways to meet other players that share your interests, not by penalising people for using heroes/ai.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 09, 2007, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

The way to achieve this is to make it easier to do so by providing better ways to meet other players that share your interests, not by penalising people for using heroes/ai.

True, that's why I approached it via a different angle in another thread topic.

Though, I do feel that people should be honest and acknowledge the effect Heroes/Imp. Henchies have had on the social interaction within the game.

BahamutKaiser · Feb 09, 2007, 03:21 AM // 03:21

The idea of adding disadvantages to those playing alone and with heros is nonsense, you like groups, others don't. I agree with allowing rewards and the same drops and gold whether your alone or with a group. so whether your alone or in a group, you will still get good, or the same loot. But trying to penalize one or the other for playing their way is nonsense.

Playing a hero team often requires more capital than a PUG, easy as it may be to form, you have to equip and outfit each hero yourself, costing up to 4 times as much as simply yourself.

Probably the best way to promote pick up groups is to make areas with 8 to 12 limit on teammates, and offer no henchmen. You can still use your heros, but it will take a minimum of 2 other players with full heros to play a full team. This way people can use their heros and team with other players.

But the simple fact of the matter is no matter how dry single play is, people are vastly ineffective at play, and team synergy is 10 times easier with your own units. Until people learn to synergize their teams on the fly, it will likely never be as good as a hero team unless your in an extensive function required aspect where heros cannot suffice, like requiring pulled levers and long distance splits.

Equal looting is a fine idea, no person is going to get more loot per kill than they would if they fought alone, but it will be easier to loot in a group rather than alone. Personally, this is a cooperative game, so adding some insentive to team play can improve the gameplay. Likewise, if you loot with heros and henchmen, you get the same loot, but the advantage to looting with a human group can be the mutual benifit of a large group rather than yourself, making it worth wile.

P.S. Signed and Unsigned have been prohibited by the moderators, learn to formulate and present your opinion or keep your opinion to yourself.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 09, 2007, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

But the simple fact of the matter is no matter how dry single play is, people are vastly ineffective at play, and team synergy is 10 times easier with your own units. Until people learn to synergize their teams on the fly, it will likely never be as good as a hero team unless your in an extensive function required aspect where heros cannot suffice, like requiring pulled levers and long distance splits.

Out of all the MMORPG's I have played, routine grouping seems to be significantly more difficult in Guild Wars.

If you are trying to play Guild Wars without a strong guild or close friends, it can be a frustrating situation. The very definition of dry content is having to play it through on various characters with just Henchies and Heroes.

Basically, ANet needs to expand and upgrade the game's social scene. It will benefit everyone.

Meat Axe · Feb 09, 2007, 03:40 AM // 03:40

I agree that there should be some insentive to play with real people as opposed to heroes and hench. I just don't think this should be in the form of monetary gain for one group. Bahamut Kaiser is right. Those of us playing with heroes have to spend four times as much sometimes to make heroes a worthwhile addition, whereas those who play with other real people only have to concentrate on outfitting one character. It's true that you can just give heroes crappy max weapons that are dropped during fights, but this is still a loss, and it's not nearly as effective as giving them a max weapon with a few good mods, which could in fact set us back thousands. It's the price we pay for how we prefer to play.

Just like other people have said before, the main insentive to give people to join PUGs is to be nicer and less arrogant. Teach them when they screw up instead of screaming how they're a noob and since you're so l33t, you shouldn't have to put up with it. Lighten up, have fun, people. It's a game, the whole point is to have fun.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 09, 2007, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meat Axe

Just like other people have said before, the main insentive to give people to join PUGs is to be nicer and less arrogant.

With human nature being what it is, it's unlikely that there will be any improvement on that score.

For people to play together they need to group together, it's not a shocker that they won't group together if they don't need to group together. And there we are.

People cooperate and are "nice' to each other when they need to be and when they need each other to accomplish things that they can not do on their own.

And friends are made this way, it's a messy process, an omelet and eggs kinda thing.

You know, throw a bunch of people that have never met, send them through hell and when they come out of it they are brothers and sisters in arms, friends forever...yada yada...

Or something like that.

cellardweller · Feb 09, 2007, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

Though, I do feel that people should be honest and acknowledge the effect Heroes/Imp. Henchies have had on the social interaction within the game.

I don't think you'll get an argument over that it has had an affect, however you appear to think that it has been a negative one rather than a positive one like I do.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 09, 2007, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I don't think you'll get an argument over that it has had an affect, however you appear to think that it has been a negative one rather than a positive one like I do.

I think Heroes and improved Henchies have had a positive and negative impact in different areas.

Yet, if a system already has a weakness, then an improvement in one area can be good but a detriment to an already weakened area can be very damaging.

Tempy · Feb 09, 2007, 05:18 AM // 05:18

People keep saying what an impact the Heroes/Imp Henchies had on the PUG's...I am sorry but I know alot of people that all it did was give us better "companions" to play with. People that played with henchies, are still playing with henchies and now heroes.

PUG's went tragically downhill summer 2005 and off the map of ridiculous after Xmas 2005. (New influx of "immature" players).

Teger · Feb 09, 2007, 05:34 AM // 05:34

/signed

You could still solo all 3 campaigns with h/h if you wanted, but you would get rewarded for pugging with people. It sounds ideal enough to me.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 09, 2007, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tempy

PUG's went tragically downhill summer 2005 and off the map of ridiculous after Xmas 2005. (New influx of "immature" players).

The game won't be creating as many experienced "veterans" as it did in earlier chapters.

The trends indicate that PuG's will continue to become less popular because the portion of the player pool that seeks to group with other players will become smaller and consist of newer/inexperienced players.

cellardweller · Feb 09, 2007, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

The game won't be creating as many experienced "veterans" as it did in earlier chapters.

The trends indicate that PuG's will continue to become less popular because the portion of the player pool that seeks to group with other players will become smaller and consist of newer/inexperienced players.

I fail to see how PuG'ing has anything to do with producing a "veteran". Unless by "veteran" you mean someone who is willing to put up with use and abuse. Or perhaps you are referring to leet genital drawing skills?

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 09, 2007, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I fail to see how PuG'ing has anything to do with producing a "veteran". Unless by "veteran" you mean someone who is willing to put up with use and abuse.

It means a lot of things, but in the context of our discussion it refers to players that play the game well with others and in a positive manner.

Guild Wars has many hurdles already in its PvE world in regards to social gamesmanship, Heroes are simply another. It doesn't mean that Heroes aren't a success in nearly every other facet.

cellardweller · Feb 09, 2007, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

It means a lot of things, but in the context of our discussion it refers to players that play the game well with others and in a positive manner.

With heroes you are free to play with other people in a friendly mature enviroment. With an enforced PuG system we are back to the "bad old days" where every outing was like playing russian roulette. I would think that the former would meet your definition better than the latter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

Guild Wars has many hurdles already in its PvE world in regards to social gamesmanship, Heroes are simply another. It doesn't mean that Heroes aren't a success in nearly every other facet.

It seems to me that you are having trouble with the idea that just because people aren't playing with you, it doesn't mean that they are not playing with each other. Perhaps you need to invest less time into trying to force people to play with you and more more time into developing a solid guild?

NeHoMaR · Feb 09, 2007, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Aeon221, don't worry, HARD MODE is coming!

(I hope that hard mode force to make pugs for success, I HOPE)

narked · Feb 09, 2007, 06:36 AM // 06:36

[QUOTE=Aeon221 leaving the poor dumb masses, like my younger brother, stranded in the early areas without hope..[/QUOTE]

so why u leave him there?...... lol, ive done same to my bro

My opinion, NF heroes caused problems cause u have to level them. When teaming with groups they want higher level heroes from u, so playing a mission where your Dunkuro is lvl18 etc means your out, or you solo it, just to level him,

heroes good idea, love playing with them, but they need to be limited... there's something wrong with me teaming up with a mate in Fort Ranik with me at lvl20, 2 heroes lvl20, and whoever needs mission...... Heroes ought to be same level as the available henchies (weapons/armour dumbed down to that level too)...

As for PUGs, yes I still play them, if u are complaining about lack of group play: then dump the heroes lol... find a group

Got called a n00b today in consulate docks... it insulted me yes... but will never overshadow some of the mates i've made playing pug groups and getting to know them during missions.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 09, 2007, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

With heroes you are free to play with other people in a friendly mature enviroment. With an enforced PuG system we are back to the "bad old days" where every outing was like playing russian roulette. I would think that the former would meet your definition better than the latter.

No, actually I already explained what I said. I am not debating the virtues of Heroes. However, I am comparing my experience in Guild Wars to my experiences as a long time player in other online games. I see trends in gameplay that weren't present when Guild Wars was released and I think the game has a social problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

It seems to me that you are having trouble with the idea that just because people aren't playing with you, it doesn't mean that they are not playing with each other. Perhaps you need to invest less time into trying to force people to play with you and more more time into developing a solid guild?

It's all anecdotal, so it doesn't matter. I solely use Heroes and Henchies because they are the most efficient way to progress in the game. ANet has made it so. Serious players that want to move through the game will prefer to use NPC's as team members.

People can cough up exceptions about playing with guildees or live-in lovers but the majority of people that first log into Guild Wars will find a rather austere lifelessness.

So, cuting the psycho babble and saving it for observations of how people interact in-game would be more constructive.

Recap on a trend:

For people to play together they need to group together, it's not a shocker that they won't group together if they don't need to group together. And there we are.

People cooperate and are "nice' to each other when they need each other to accomplish things that they can not do on their own.

When someone needs to get to town and they have a choice between a car and mule, people will generally choose the car. Doesn't mean they always will, but over time the trend will lean toward the car...hands down.

People play online games for some very basic reasons:

-a sense of achievement (competence)
-freedom (autonomy)
-social connectedness (relatedness)

A game's long term success rests on meeting all three. Time will tell, it's not a static situation.

Meat Axe · Feb 09, 2007, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Actually, we are very much pack animals. We follow each other's trends, we desire to be with a certain person for the rest of our lives. We don't do it because we feel it would be easier to get something done, because quite frankly, a lot of things we do AREN'T the easy way out.

That said, we are very fragile creatures, that learn something, and that something sticks with us for the rest of our lives. We may eventually get over it, but it's still there in the back of our minds, and we use caution whenever we see a similar situation.

Taking all this into consideration, players from online games like to group with other players. Generally it's more fun. But a lot of the time, we get burned when we play with others, so we learn that it's not fun, and although we get over it, we are still cautious. So, we tend to choose the thing that won't burn us, which is AI.

So, instead of just being nice to someone to accomplish something, try being nice to people all the time, and I think then more people will want to PUG and have a chat online.

When someone NEEDS to get to town, they take the fastest way to get there. When someone doesn't need to get there, but still wants to get there, they'll take the more fun route.

EDIT: Unless they're lazy.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 09, 2007, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meat Axe

Actually, we are very much pack animals. We follow each other's trends, we desire to be with a certain person for the rest of our lives. We don't do it because we feel it would be easier to get something done, because quite frankly, a lot of things we do AREN'T the easy way out.

Good points. In reference to taking the "easy way out", I would add that conforming to established standards is taking the easy way out. Herd animals tend to follow the herd. And the herd tends to follow a trail that's been pounded out for generation upon generation by ancestors of the herd.

**Marty Silverblade** · Feb 09, 2007, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Firstly, sorry I didn't read much other than the OP but I don't really want to read 5 pages of stuff.

Don't take this personally, but IMO this is a really crap idea.

Pro's of Pugging
- You could make a friend
- If a gold item/other desirable item drops you will find out and will have the option of buying it, whereas the item would not drop at all if it was assigned to a henchie
- You could maybe ask them to take specific skills/attributes
- Other people may know what to do/where to go/the best way to do things if you don't

Pro's of Henching
- No BS from noobs
- Don't have to put up with immature 12 year olds that think 'your mum' jokes are funny and make them 'cooler'.
- No risk of err 7's and stuff
- Decent, reliable skill bars

Seems fair to me (how things already are), not to mention your idea would completely screw up people like me (I'm in Australia) who rarely find more than 3 people looking to do a mission at conveinient playing times.