Curse

rohara · Feb 08, 2007, 11:29 AM // 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon221

I don't think you read the post. At no point did I say that PUGs should be the only option.

What I did say was that players should incur an economic loss for choosing to play with AI companions only, and an economic benefit for playing with human players.

I am suggesting that Anet reward players for putting up with one another. How is this at all at odds with your desire to not pug?

read MY post, where did i say that PUGs should be the only option? i didn't.

and no, i don't believe pugging OR heroway should be penalized OR rewarded for any reason whatsoever. like someone else said, that would lead to massive abuse anyway.

i mainly play in the wee hours of the morning when NOBODY is online, and heroes were a blessing to me. i'd rather play with my heroes/hench than go with the random assortment people found scattered throughout the continents at 4am. why should i be punished for that? and why should i be rewarded for taking a bunch of random people with me? the only reward i'm after is completing the mission and getting bonus/masters, and i'm not interested in being rewarded simply for tolerating others' potential inadequacies.

"took us an hour to beat the mission, but i got this gold sword to show for it!" XD

Meat Axe · Feb 08, 2007, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estic

I think getting pugging back on the map might happen with the introduction of Hard Mode. A good idea would be to make it impossible to do hard mode with henchies (mind you, henchies nog heroes). This would force people to at least play with one other person while not forcing them to have to wait for 8 players to simultaniously be in the same district and sharing the same aim.

I don't think you should force someone to play with other people if they don't want to. It should be their own choice that they play with heroes/henches or other people, not that they were forced to do one or the other.

Again, I agree with rohara. I actually play in the middle of the day when I get the chance to, but since I live in Australia there is barely anyone online. So I too thought heroes were a huge blessing. But even when I play at times when it's busy, I usually take heroes on a mission, and if I fail a few times, I'll go join a PUG. It's simply that I prefer it. There's no idiots aggroing everything in sight, no idiots calling you a noob if you make one tiny mistake, and you get all the loot. I don't see why it's such a big deal if people don't want to join a group full of strangers when they're better off on their own. It's not like anyone actually talks when you're in a group, you just want to finish the mission as soon as possible.

And if you really want to PUG, ask people in your guild/alliance if they wanna help out. There's bound to be someone who will, unless you're in a guild with less than 10 people.

Now, with regards to my suggestion in the other post, no one commented on it, so I'm assuming you didn't like the idea. If I'm wrong, then take my advice and set up a group of people you know like to PUG. If you didn't like the idea, stop complaining about people wanting to solo!

LONGA · Feb 08, 2007, 12:10 PM // 12:10

Not really my Original Idea. Try adding a title that show how much did play with other players.Like a runner title showing how many people did you travel with in Explorable Area.Another Title which improve when you complte misson as a leader for a major human team.

Effendi Westland · Feb 08, 2007, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohara

and why should i be rewarded for taking a bunch of random people with me?

Game designers create the community and it the way it works. They have several tools for doing so. In Guild Wars the designers opted for an area design where no matter how many people you bring the monsters are always the same difficulty and have the same drops, this is a design which supports solo farming. When prophecies and factions were the only guild wars games the henchie AI was particulary bad, this design created a need for the community to team up together.

With Nightfall the game designers aparently decided that the basic design should change, instead of it promoting grouping (because the ai-replacement was just awful) they changed it into something which promotes going solo with hero/hench. They updated the henchies AI, and added heros. Call of the Torment is a skill which fits into this design as well, ai+player groups deal with it better then pure human groups.

For some heros might be bliss, but it's a turndown for just as many. How interesting can it be to do everything in the game for each of your characters in exactly the same way? With hero/hench it really doesn't matter what you play, as long as you bring the same combinations of heros you could even go round with an empty skillbar on all of your chars. Playing with heros just doesn't give the same level of accomplishment, there are thousands of people who can do it just as well with their own heroes. How many people do it just as well in a pug?

So, yes in my opinion Anet should design some game mechanic that actually promotes grouping with other players. I'm hoping "Hard mode" is just that and not just a mode that turns everything into DoA.

Guild Wars was a nice multiplayer game, for pure PvE it's a crappy single-player game atm. Glad I like both aspects of the game and heros were effectively removed from pvp.

freekedoutfish · Feb 08, 2007, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon221

Let's be honest: GW is not that great of a single player game.

Sorry but that entire sentence just annoys me, because your persuming that everyone who plays GWs plays it to PUG and play with others.

I actually find and have found that GWs has a very deep and enjoyable single player side to it. I've spent most of the last 2 years playing the game with AI and ive loved it.

Its great when you do PUG in a good team, but it also has a rich single player side. Something which is a great selling point.

For that very simple ignorant statement im going to go with..

/notsigned

...and I havent even read your other points. PUG numbers are down for a very simple reason. The people in the PUGs are 60% of the time arrogant and up-their-own-ass.

It has nothing to do with adding more insentives to PUG, it has everything to do with weeding out immature attitudes in the game so you want to play with other humans.

Bryant Again · Feb 08, 2007, 01:40 PM // 13:40

/Notsigned

Guild Wars has a huge emphasis on choice, and penalizing someone just for that will do no good.

People don't do PUGs a whole lot anymore because, well, most people aren't too nice. The only good PUG times I remember were in Ascalon to the Shiverpeaks. Nowadays...I dunno. There's too much reliabilaty involved, and it can make Guild Wars very stressful for me. That's why I do Heros: I like to get farther in the game with assurance. (I also don't have a whole lot of time to play, so Heros make it fast).

However, I do understand the situation of people who have trouble finding groups. The only thing that can be done about it right now is pure kindness, which I aim to do. When I'm done with missions on Tyria, I plan on going back and helping people for fun, and because hey they need it. I hope others will follow.

Guldur · Feb 08, 2007, 01:43 PM // 13:43

On like 90% of the mmorpgs out there, you get some sort of bonus for being in a player party, such as exp bonus. No one has ever complained about it.

Why here on this forum people have the need to complain about everything, and come up with the worst arguments ever.

You guys like to play solo? Continue to do so. But whats the problem in giving a slight bonus for those who play in partys and with real players? Maybe a slight gold drop increase, a bigger chance in getting drops (5% more or something). Not a big advantage, but something to make people want to play together once again.

As it has been said, people on the beggining used to play PuGs because henchs sucked so bad (Tanker alesia + orion burning dead monsters). Nowadays its so much better to play with heroes instead of players that its only hurting the community as a whole.

Meat Axe · Feb 08, 2007, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effendi Westland

For some heros might be bliss, but it's a turndown for just as many.

This is exactly what I'm thinking, but I'm thinking it in a completely different way. If there are just as many people who hate heroes as love them, then why do we have to change the game to get people interested in PUGs? So there are LESS people playing PUGs because now the half that wants to play solo has an option to. And a very decent option to, as opposed to before Nightfall was released. There's different demographics to the game. Giving rewards to one particular one would be like this example:

Half the population likes hip hop, half the population doesn't. In fact, they absolutely hate it. The government decides that the half that prefers rock and alt rock should listen to more hip hop (don't ask me why, it's irrelevant to this analogy). So, to get people more interested in hip hop, they start giving out money at concerts. They also start trying to change the rock concerts into hip hop ones. So, basically, there's this entire group that all paid the same amount of money as each other, but for completely different things, but then, instead of just leaving them to enjoy their thing, there's a group that tries to force their thing on another group.... Okay, so it's a crap analogy, but it's late, and this one gets my point across just as well as one that would be all exciting and well-written.

I completely agree with freekedoutfish. I think there are aspects that do suit single player very well. I too have been playing AI since I started 10 months ago, with the exception of the later Factions missions, because they're just annoying. I just like soloing better. It's also true that a large amount of people who PUG are arrogant. Not all, but a lot. And this might be the reason that there's less and less people who like this style of play.

freekedoutfish · Feb 08, 2007, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guldur

As it has been said, people on the beggining used to play PuGs because henchs sucked so bad (Tanker alesia + orion burning dead monsters). Nowadays its so much better to play with heroes instead of players that its only hurting the community as a whole.

Henches and Heroes are not hurting the community in GWs in the slightest. They just happen to offer a much better alternative to PUGs which 90% of the time are frustrating.

Games such as WoW which dont offer an AI alternative actually have a huge down-fall due to that. Have you played WoW?

I've been playing it for about a month now and its a great game. Except for the fact that ive been playing it completely solo 90% of the time.

Not from lack of wisping people or standing 2 feet away from people asking them to help. Not from lack of standing there watching a party kill the boss I need and saying "can i please join you, I need him too".

I have solo'd that game because...

1) the starting areas were easy and
2) Most people DONT let you join them.

The result is you having to stand around for 10-15 minutes waiting for a boss to respawn because the morons before you wouldnt let you join them.

The result is you spend about 2 days not being able to do harder quests because you simple cant get a party together. There isnt always anyone around to even help you.

Im actually lonely in that game. As I said already. It isnt that people dont want to PUG, its the mentality of the humans in them. Either you join a PUG and get kicked because you dont have the "build" they want, or you join and have to endure bickering and arguing.

Having played WoW for several weeks, I miss having the ability to use AI to back me up and feel like a team. I think if GWs had used this system from the start and we didnt have AI, then we would be in exactly the same situation.

The AI help in GWs is what sets the game apart from others. The game doesnt need huge insentives to join PUGs, we dont need rewards or benefits, we just need good manored, pleasant players.

And for the record, you say 90% of alternative MMOs offer benefits to PUGing. Such as what? Ive not seen any benefits to PUGing in WoW. You get less experience, you have to roll for rare drops.

Where is the insentive other then to complete a quest you otherwise couldnt?

Vinraith · Feb 08, 2007, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon221

Let's be honest: GW is not that great of a single player game.

Bzzt. First of all, it's actually a pretty enjoyable single player game and second of all, the choice is not between playing solo and PUGing. This fals dichotomy is a favorite of people that want to force us to PUG by hook or crook, but the simple fact is that playing with friends and guildies will always be superior to SP or PUGing by a wide margin. I've said it before and I'll say it again, just because people aren't playing with you doesn't mean they aren't playing together. Personally I came back to the game because heroes allow a few people to do high level stuff more easily by filling out the party with a superior alternative to henchmen. If I was in any way prevented or even disadvantaged by doing that I'd probably go find another game to play.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 08, 2007, 03:04 PM // 15:04

/agree with OP

Some method to encourage player interaction. Guild Wars is not a very good solo player game for the long haul.

Henchies had enough "weaknesses" that people didn't automatically use them. Heroes are are now an extension of the player character and customizable...that generally leaves PuG's in the dust.

Ask yourself what is good for the long term health of the game?

If you think a bunch of solo players that barely converse other than to sell things is good for the game, then Guild Wars doesn't have a very bright future.

There are already too many things going against community building with in the game:

-Campaigns spreading an already thin player base

-Heroes as a method to bypass player team building <team building was a stated core concept of the game>

-Instanced areas mean that players only cross path in outposts, this isn't a problem so much as a factor

-Poor in game trade functions relegating in-game chat to trade spam and smack talk

Sure, ANet can attract anti-social solo playing Hero loving players, but at the end of the day will that be enough to sell games?

And, yes, I use Heroes and hardly ever group.

People take the path of least resistance.

Lonesamurai · Feb 08, 2007, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Oh ffs, its very simple, join a guild that has an active forum and voice comms...

Meat Axe · Feb 08, 2007, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

Sure, ANet can attract anti-social solo playing Hero loving players, but at the end of the day will that be enough to sell games?

And, yes, I use Heroes and hardly ever group.

People take the path of least resistance.

Just because people play solo doesn't mean they are anti-social. They may just prefer to play solo while talking to their guild and friends at the same time. A lot of people play solo simply because they don't like playing with people they don't know, or people that will put them down if they make a mistake or are using a different build. It's simple as that. Give people a reason to join a group, a reason as in make them feel welcome, and maybe you'll solve the PUG deterioration issue.

People take the path that they are comfortable with. This may mean that they are quite comfortable playing with strangers, or it may mean they prefer to just play with friends, or solo and talk to friends. This is what I do. I'm not saying that I haven't made friends in game, but I only ever talk to someone who makes the effort to talk to me in a civil way. It's exactly the same in real life. I work on registers, and constantly ask people how they are, how they're enjoying their weekend, etc. If I have someone who just shrugs me off when I'm being polite, then I don't make the effort. It's the same in game. You have to make the effort of making people feel welcome, so they make the effort to play with other players.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 08, 2007, 03:34 PM // 15:34

=================================================

Everyone needs to realize that PuG's are even WORSE now because of HEROES/improved Henchies.

=================================================

Player interaction is a dynamic process:

-people learn teamwork skills when playing with other humans

-interconnectedness with others is a cornerstone of what online gaming is all about

-each adventure is truly unique when you play with other players, thus the game does not become a static experience

-player interaction creates better gamers because players can learn from other players and eventually improve their skills

It isn't that 50% of the players love heroes and the other 50% don't...nearly everyone loves playing with Heroes and it's destroying the in-game community.

ANet Devs made a mistake and a bad decision that is hurting the game. In many ways Heroes are like a short term solution with a longterm detrimental effect.

=================================================

PuG's are now worse than ever because generally it is the least experienced and less skilled players that try to get into groups. So, now we have a self fulfilling predicament.

The thing about player interaction is that it requires a critical mass. A few "saints" out there that try to play the role of helping noobs or being nice in game won't cut it.

Using Heroes is akin to masturbation, everyone does it, but it's not the best long term way to find fulfillment.

Burst Cancel · Feb 08, 2007, 03:40 PM // 15:40

First of all, I don't see how solofarming factors into this argument at all, since they're not around to do missions or quests in the first place, and aren't interested in grouping with anyone or anything. The change wouldn't make solofarmers PuG missions, it would make them join farming guilds.

Second, the fact that you feel the need to be "compensated" for playing with other people indicates that something is very wrong with the community, and I'm surprised you don't see it. I can almost remember a time when people played with each other because they wanted to, rather than because they got some kind of compensation. But maybe I just have a bad memory.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 08, 2007, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

First of all, I don't see how solofarming factors into this argument at all, since they're not around to do missions or quests in the first place, and aren't interested in grouping with anyone or anything.

I don't think the thread topic is about solo farming either... This is about Missions and Quests and even general exploration.

And, I do believe things are very wrong with the in-game community. I don't advocate removing Heroes/improved Henchies from the game or dumbing them down. I do, however, believe that it may be time to nudge the player base back into playing with each other.

Unlike real world politicians, games devs can perform social engineering rather successfully because they are gods in a world of their own creation.

Meat Axe · Feb 08, 2007, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

I can almost remember a time when people played with each other because they wanted to, rather than because they got some kind of compensation. But maybe I just have a bad memory.

That's exactly my point. The problem isn't that people don't want to PUG (some people might not want to), but it's that the more players come into the game, the community gets diluted with arrogant idiots who make players not want to interract with other people while trying to complete a mission. This thread shouldn't be about compensation for PUGs losing player options, it should be about letting players know that just because there are a few bad apples, doesn't mean that they should give up on other players altogether.

milan · Feb 08, 2007, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Before heroes I would group with guildmembers or go whole group of henchies wherever possible, not because I'm an antisocial git, simply because after attempting missions over and over again with PUG's that failed because of lack of simple common sense I was ready to start hitting things.

Nowadays I don't have to PUG, I won't PUG, I hate it. As for as I can see the op's suggestion actually penalises those who chose to go along the route I have in manner of % drops etc, being reduced from the current rate, this I wouldn't be happy with at all.

By all means give the FULL human groups a carrot while in missions/quests but don't penalise me for not wanting to spend 8 hours of my life trying to pass one mission because of people incapable of aggro management.

freekedoutfish · Feb 08, 2007, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

The thing about player interaction is that it requires a critical mass. A few "saints" out there that try to play the role of helping noobs or being nice in game won't cut it.

So people should give up trying to be nice and help noob players with no experience, because it doesnt help in the long run?

Instead we should single out the noobs and not let them into PUGs because their inexperienced and wont contribute to the team?

If ive misunderstood then sorry, but thats how your statement reads.

How exactly does that attitude help towards the dwindling PUG numbers?

People quite simply wont take part in something if its not fun and they dont learn from it. If you say to someone that you wont help them, or you wont let them join you because their inexperienced, then it incourages resentment towards joining others.

Your started your post off by blaming AI for dropping PUG numbers, and then make a statement like that! And your honestly trying to say anti-social attitudes arent the main contributor to lacking PUGs?

I say we should do every little thing we can to incourage noob players to join PUGs. If that means going up to ever low level player and asking if they need help, then we should do it.

Instead of just not trying, because it wont "cut it"!

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 08, 2007, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote: