Curse

I Super Ingenious · Feb 09, 2007, 05:42 PM // 17:42

QFAT on the first post, nothin' else to say. ANet would be Über-stupid by making another continent...

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 11, 2007, 08:50 PM // 20:50

My best guess is that the 4th Campaign will:

-contain new skills for all professions

-will not introduce new professions

-will tie in existing adjacent game locations into new explorable areas

-will introduce new playable races, perhaps one new race for each chapter <4 total>

-introduce broader and more approachable PvP areas to increase PvP involvement

-will introduce expansion-based Trade House functionality

BahamutKaiser · Feb 11, 2007, 09:48 PM // 21:48

I don't think that heros are a bad thing, and assuming that all online games should foster community just because it is the mainstream appeal of online games is also a slight misconception. There are always some who want otherwise, and with such successful community involved games already out there, an alternative is also a very good position to pursue.

One of the significant appeals of the game is it's division from such mainstream MMOs. Like the use of instances instead of shared locations, a greater focus on PvP equality and opportunity, an economy which isn't totally reliant on player manipulation. These features allow those who don't want to suffer from community stigmatism to enjoy a game. Having Heros is a part of it.

It is funny how people make small complaints about improvements when the situation remedied is far more taxing. The difficulty finding parties, especially for certain professions, was without heros, a very big and taxing issue. Now we no longer have to deal with player scruitiny and poor cooperation. Sure now it is much less social, but if your really doing well in a mission or objective, how much socializing would you do?

This is an action packed game, if your really doing well there really isn't much time to converse. So a real difficulty was fixed, and now a superfical one has replaced it. Well some people wan't to play with others. Either they can find others of the same nature, or seek a game which is more community driven, or Anet can offer better cooperative play features to make it easier and rewarding to play with players. Anything to the effect of displacing heros returns us to a worse difficulty, which is players not getting to play at all because they arn't accepted unless they play by someone elses rules.

I can't say that Hero play has any flaws, I've played several a console game which are more than fun when I was the only human interacting. A great RPG has the elements and content to facinate all by itself.

There are difficulties on both sides of the fence, thing is, this side is much better.

Here are some of my concepts on Chapter features, perhaps you can draw from them. This one has the features on Sea Exploration and activities.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3014498

And this one is a story I wrote as background for a rather elaborate chapter.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3035147

Both are rather long, actually, the story is extremely long.

On a guess basis, we are more likely to have another 2 professions than new races, or both. But they may start passing up professions. I still want to see new professions, but it is only because they have yet to make one I can really attach to, and unless they are making one that I can really enjoy, it really doesn't matter to me if they make a dozen more or none.

hallomik · Feb 11, 2007, 11:29 PM // 23:29

General thoughts inspired by this thread:

New Races: I have no issue with this presuming there are no inherent racial skills/attributes. If new races can wear existing armor and the female members are easy on the eyes, what's not to like?

New Continents: Exploration is key to many players, so this is mandatory. Also, many players will buy chapter 5 (pointless to make recommendations for 4 as it is mostly designed at this point) as their first entry into the game.

Cross Continent Quests This has already been done (elona desert quest), and I'm sure will be expanded.

Players spreading too thin. I agree this is a valid concern, although Anet already has answers to this. They're called events. Each weekend, Anet introduces something to draw players together. This seems to work fine.

Also, I just took my Canthan monk thru Prophesies and had no trouble pugging my way in every mission with nearly all full-human groups. Yes, monks have an easier time finding groups than most, but I'm not seeing the shortage of players I keep hearing about.

Heroes vs. Pugs I've posted on this previously, and I agree that Heroes have reduced player interaction too much. I think future chapters should continue to develop elite/challenge missions where multiple human teams have advantages over full AI teams. Think coordination or simultaneous exploration of multiple areas, etc.

No new Skills / Professions Not going to happen. New chapter will likely introduce 2 new professions in addition to the Prophesies core with new skills / elites for the expansion professions. Every profession has their devoted followers, so they've got to give a little love to everyone. New professions and skills are one of Anet's ways to make the game a "must purchase" for PVP players. I believe you can bank on them continuing this formula.

What I'd like to see in a future expansion

I'd like to see a mechanism to facilitate grouping to combat the solo-with-Heroes phenonemon. I've already posted on this at length elsewhere and repeat that.

The random element. I was taking my 3rd or 4th character thru Elona when I "realized" the NPC I was headed to was in a new location. I remember getting excited that I was going to see some new part of Elona as part of the same primary quest line. Once I realized I had the wrong quest selected, it occurred to me that Anet could really spice up PVE by making things a bit more random. Why does an instanced NPC have to be in the same place every time? Why does the sequence of encountered Mobs have to be identical. A certain degree of repeatability allows for controlled experimentation of builds and tactics. Too much leads to boredom. I'd like to seem them turn it up a bit.

nekopowa · Feb 11, 2007, 11:46 PM // 23:46

I don't agree with this, if they make players settle in 3 previous continents it will be harder to expand it later on and too much trouble moving again. It kills the world growth.

Chaos Herald · Feb 12, 2007, 01:19 AM // 01:19

I like the OPs idea with races, but adding centaurs/charr would mean that you would need to make these races hostile to each other. That just wouldn't work with the current GW engine. Furthermore, due to the fact that players will obviously buy the original game first, and the expansion later. The ratio of humans vs. everything else would be too large. And I do think GW is dieing, and that there aren't enough possibilities in the current extremely balanced game engine to keep this up. By chapter 6,7 or even 5, there won't be anymore possibilities. And Green items, aren't they supposed to be UNIQUE, I have seen the same stats in a green item repeated at least twice, and now they are even using the same skins as normal items. In chapter 4, I'd like to see them balance out the skill numbers, no new professions. And it would be really cool if it was a prequel.

«Ripskin · Feb 12, 2007, 04:34 AM // 04:34

/signed for everything but races

I played WoW. I don't need gw to change to it.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 12, 2007, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by nekopowa

I don't agree with this, if they make players settle in 3 previous continents it will be harder to expand it later on and too much trouble moving again. It kills the world growth.

If ANet takes a "break" from creating a whole new continent in the 4th campaign, how would this prevent them from expanding in the next campaigns?

There is much that can be accomplished with out driving active players apart from already established areas. The game is primarily made up of instanced areas, after all.

Example:

A portal has appeared in the capital cities in Elona, Tyria and Cantha...that portal leads to another place...there's a story here, yada, yada..

Bingo! You have a new content area but the crossroads of the player base doesn't have to change.

The trick is to keep the old stuff alive while providing new and exciting content.

cyberjanet · Feb 12, 2007, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Some interesting ideas here.

I like the concept of re-using existing continents but having new stories on them. I always wonder what happened to Ascalon after Rurik left. Did the Charr take over? I know there are a whole lot of Titans I still have to do something about, but I always feel a little sad when I return and things are otherwise just as I left them at the beginning of the game. Same with Cantha and Elona; exactly what did I achieve by killing Shiro, Varesh and Abaddon? And of course the scenery could change, especially in Ascalon, it could become green again. Perhaps the forests and seas in Cantha become un-petrified.

Heroes: I'm for them. I think a new story could bring along some heroes with it, but not too many, probably just one each for any new profession introduced. In my opinion people who are anti-hero haven't found out how to use them properly. The reason I don't want too many new heroes is that it costs a fortune to get them runed up and properly equipped. Plus there's a huge investment in finding builds that work under AI.

Plus I'm an adult, and I really, really, really don't want to play with kids who think they are being grown-up by hurling insults, shouting n00b and Dc-ing when things don't go their way. I have fun playing with a couple of regular playing companions and their equally well-equipped heroes.

New professions. Always tricky, I don't want a huge stable of characters, but I could go for a bard.

Storyline. I absolutely need a storyline. I drive the 11-year olds mad when I play with them because I want to watch the movies and get the storyline. There has been a certain sameness about the storylines so far; lich lord/abaddon wanting to take over the world. I never fully understood Shiro's case, or even if the emperor really wanted to kill him; I guess he was just nuts. So a breath of freshness in a new storyline would be nice.

Someone suggested profession-specific quests. Great idea! Tailor-make your own game! That would encourage more playing together too, because you would have to play with other professions to play their quests!

I'm not too keen on races myself. One is plenty.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 12, 2007, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberjanet

Some interesting ideas here.

I like the concept of re-using existing continents but having new stories on them. I always wonder what happened to Ascalon after Rurik left. Did the Charr take over? I know there are a whole lot of Titans I still have to do something about, but I always feel a little sad when I return and things are otherwise just as I left them at the beginning of the game. Same with Cantha and Elona; exactly what did I achieve by killing Shiro, Varesh and Abaddon? And of course the scenery could change, especially in Ascalon, it could become green again. Perhaps the forests and seas in Cantha become un-petrified.

Heroes: I'm for them. I think a new story could bring along some heroes with it, but not too many, probably just one each for any new profession introduced. In my opinion people who are anti-hero haven't found out how to use them properly. The reason I don't want too many new heroes is that it costs a fortune to get them runed up and properly equipped. Plus there's a huge investment in finding builds that work under AI.

Plus I'm an adult, and I really, really, really don't want to play with kids who think they are being grown-up by hurling insults, shouting n00b and Dc-ing when things don't go their way. I have fun playing with a couple of regular playing companions and their equally well-equipped heroes.

New professions. Always tricky, I don't want a huge stable of characters, but I could go for a bard.

Storyline. I absolutely need a storyline. I drive the 11-year olds mad when I play with them because I want to watch the movies and get the storyline. There has been a certain sameness about the storylines so far; lich lord/abaddon wanting to take over the world. I never fully understood Shiro's case, or even if the emperor really wanted to kill him; I guess he was just nuts. So a breath of freshness in a new storyline would be nice.

Someone suggested profession-specific quests. Great idea! Tailor-make your own game! That would encourage more playing together too, because you would have to play with other professions to play their quests!

I'm not too keen on races myself. One is plenty.

Good points.

Grouping and Heroes:

I play solely with Heroes and Henchies myself. I can't completely explain why, because I was very grouped very much in DAoC, Horizons and WoW as well as with guildees. PuG's generally considered inferior in every game, just more so in Guild Wars. Also, more younger people are playing than before and that changes the "society" if you will.

Guild Wars appears to be very guild dependent...that's not too shocking given the name. The game doesn't lend itself well to playing with utter strangers...you need to learn how other people play and build teamwork. I would prefer to play with real people on a regular basis but after 600 hours of play that still seems to be an an obstacle.

The times I have grouped in Guild Wars has been a rather disappointing and disjointed experience.

Considering the "greening" of Ascalon, and so forth:

I would be leery of creating the next expansion in too much of a forward chronological manner...I believe it tends to divide up the world even more than it already is... the time line issues have already made some weirdness for cross campaign characters. It's an understandable conceit but one that chops up a world already divided by campaigns, instances and continents.

4TH Campaign:

Time for it to flesh out the world and it can be done with out following the same "Shadow rising in Mordor" formula.

At the end of the day, Guild Wars isn't a persistent world...and that may be what doesn't fit well with our ideas of how it should be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaos Herald

I like the OPs idea with races, but adding centaurs/charr would mean that you would need to make these races hostile to each other. That just wouldn't work with the current GW engine. Furthermore, due to the fact that players will obviously buy the original game first, and the expansion later...

Any race or new culture that is added to the game would have to have a back story. But, remember that there are always various factions, splinter groups and rebels part of any civilization, and they wouldn't have to be necessarily hostile but there could be tension with the other cultures. Combinations and possibilities are endless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaos Herald

And I do think GW is dieing, and that there aren't enough possibilities in the current extremely balanced game engine to keep this up. By chapter 6,7 or even 5, there won't be anymore possibilities.

I don't think the game is dying, I do consider it to be a mostly undiscovered gem just waiting for more people to come across it. After 2 years of WoW, I see the strengths of Guild Wars, I would love to have my old WoW Guild in the game with me. Guild Wars is very player dependent. Ultimately, expansions are just stage dressings that allow us to strut our characters about on.

It really is what you bring to the game that keeps it fresh and fun. This is why I harp on the idea of implementing/introducing social improvements into the game. Make it easier for people to cross paths.

Nothing can make people team up (or should make) and play the game, but the game can be become more conducive to the social aspects of online gaming.

I find it strange that I don't often cross paths with the same person twice in the game, it's very weird.

In WoW and DAoC, there was a familiarity...a home town feeling when you went to the cities. New faces, but the "regulars" as well. It really was a social scene and the opportunities to help, be helped, trade, discuss strategies and group up were far more prevalent.

I don't explain it well, but Guild Wars needs more of society in it.

Diddy bow · Feb 12, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Needs to rethink pve, better ememy builds. Give themm all a self heal and generally balenced mobs. And tyria style random spawns (only for everything and not just bosses). The ridable wurm was a step in the right direction more intresting things like this hopefully

.

Also gotta bring the multiplayer back to pve dumb fixed enimies with dumb builds are to easy to hench, enimeis should force a player to think and act rather than just straping and anti (insert monster) build on their heros and go.

Zonzai · Feb 12, 2007, 09:01 PM // 21:01

If I could only change one thing about Guild Wars PvE it would be to add more areas like pre-searing ascalon. To quote myself...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zonzai

In between the missions it would be cool if, just once in a while, there was a more mellow zone where you didn't have to cut your way through nine hundred monsters just to get 250 xp for talking to some overly wordy guy that you don't know or care about because you know that there will be at least twenty more guys just like him on your way to getting to the good part of the game (even though you have no idea what that part is because it's really all the same).

I really enjoyed the pre-searing area. In my opinion, and in many others', that's still the best PvE that ANet has ever done. It was simple, it seemed more like a real living world. Every other zone in the game is just... some place where you kill stuff.

If I had to take a guess, I'd guess that ANet has realized that they need to make a fundamental game change in the next chapter to keep people interested. This is the change I'd like to see them impliment.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 12, 2007, 09:25 PM // 21:25

I still think Prophecies, particularly Pre-Searing was a very nice PvE experience. I loved the Catacombs and felt it could have been expanded into post-Searing. I liked the idea of the Catacombs because it tied in the overall world.

Same concept could be used to unite the existing chapters.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Mar 21, 2007, 12:05 AM // 00:05

/begin topic necromancy

Well, the news is just coming in, but you heard it here first folks!

Now gimme a cookie!

Intrepid reporter LiQuId StEeL brings us this tantalizing glimpse:

Quote:

eye of the north
HOLIDAY 2007 RELEASE

40 new armor sets, 150 new skills (including 50 pve only), 10 new heroes

"extend character development beyond level 20" ~James Phinney~

EOTN will supposedly link GW1 and 2

underground complex of tunnels through all three 'continents' present thus far is revealed.

Three acts:
Act1 takes you through 18 underground dungeons to help the dwarves defend against 'the fiery Destroyer', eventually taking you to the Asura and Norns (races)
Act2 has three story arcs ranging from exploring the Norns, to the Charr homeland, to an Asura resistance of the Destroyer
Act3 pits you against the Great Destroyer

Far shiverpeaks are Norn Lands, Charr homeland is north of ascalon, Asurans are near Maguuma, Tyrian catacombs stretch across the entire continent presumably

Imagine that! Tying in the existing game world with adjacent explorable areas to counter the expanding universe trend. Hmmm, perhaps, playable? races?

Well, give me the credit now just in case all this is proven wrong later, please.

But, I hope the expansion information is true because it will round out the whole game world.

/end topic necromancy

ShadowStorm · Mar 21, 2007, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Here's my opinion on what needs to be done with Chapter 4 PvE, although, I doubt that Anet will actually read this because it's buried under 4 pages of lengthy posts and making a new thread is offlimits.

Anet needs to examine the following Question and try to build the campaign around the answer:

Other than Unlocking new stuff for PvP characters, why do players play through PvE campaigns? What makes the game interesting enough to keep those players playing?

My opinion is that players play PvE for 2 main reasons, one of which becomes obsolete after the first time through:

- To find out what happens in the storyline.

- To experience a sense of Progress.

I have found the last 2 campaigns to be seriously lacking in the sense of progress aspect. In Prophesies:
- Players were not given access to all the skills that came with the chapter all at once.
- Players were not given access to all the types of armor that came with the campaign at once. In fact, certain types of armor and weapons were exclusive to the Henge of Denravi outpost, which was well out of the way, in a remote part of the jungle.
- Players had to complete quests to recieve their last 30 attribute points.
- Ascending actually felt like an accomplishment.
- Gaining experience was slower and thus leveling up meant more.

Now, I'm all for having choices and I understand why Anet changed a few of these things in order to provide more variety to the builds. However, I believe they took things too far, thus eliminating a good portion of the PvE experience. If you hit level 20 and have all the skills you want to use and you have access to all the armor you need for your builds within the first quarter of the game, progress becomes stagnant. All that's left in PvE after that point is testing out how good your character is. This loses it's appeal very quickly. I find myself grinding my way through the game rather than playing my way through and that isn't how it should be.

Having goals after you reach level 20 isn't enough. Fighting my way through the story to get to the outposts with 15K armor and running around trying to improve titles doesn't make the game fun. Farming to improve my wealth doesn't make the game fun. Watching my character become more powerful as he goes up in levels and unlocks new types of armor and skills is fun.

Nightfall had a couple of steps in the right direction after the overkill that was Factions. Distributing heros throughout the campaign gave characters something to unlock by progressing through the game. This is good. Also, introducing hero skill trainers was an excellent idea, but it fell a little short. If they were going to make the hero skill trainers better, they should have moved some of the skill availability from the regular skill trainers to the hero skill trainers, offering 10 or so skills per profession at the hero trainers.

Here are my suggestions for the Chapter 4 PvE

- Remove all armor crafters from the game.

That's right, all of them. Instead, make the players responsible for crafting all of their own armor. As they progress through the game, they can meet blacksmiths on the way that can teach them to make new types of armor. What type of armor the blacksmiths teach them should be up to the players. Players could earn special crafting points by doing quests and trade those points with the blacksmiths to unlock a new armor type. When the player wants to craft new armor for themselves, they just need to pay for the materials and pay to use the local blacksmith's forge. When they get into the late game, they can encounter NPCs that will teach them to make the 15K variants.

- Make skill availability scarce at the skill trainers, like it was in prophesies.

At the same time, add a new NPC that will accept special points that are earned as a player levels up; say 2 points for every 5 levels. In exchange for these special skill points, the NPC will train the character to use any 1 skill available in the campaign. In total, the character will only get 8 of these special points by the time they reach level 20, so they will have to choose carefully what skills they want to unlock early on.

- Go back to requiring quests that require more than attaining a certain rank in a title to earn the additional 30 attribute points.

This way players will feel like they've accomplished more.

- Make ascention difficult.

In Prophesies, you had to complete 4 missions and you got a whopping 50K experience point award. Most characters were already level 20 by the time this happened as well. That felt good. Bring it back!

- Make experience gain slow enough that at least half the game is finished by the time they reach level 20

PvP players complain that they don't want to have to grind a long ways to get to level 20. Well, they should make PvP characters and PvP instead of going through PvE then. PvE should take a while. That's part of what makes PvE fun. If you're powerful quickly, what's the point? PvP is currently set up so that everything you need can be unlocked with faction. You don't need to PvE to have a good PvP character.

Thanks. That's all. Opinions are welcomed. Maybe if enough people quote me in their posts, Anet will notice what I've said.