Curse

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 07, 2007, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. Noid

I appreciate your thoughts. I think you have given alot of thought on this, and I too have considered how ANet might stray from the norm. But, the thing you have to ask yourself is this: Does Anet think another chapter will dilute their product/playerbase?
I would suggest that ANet is not as concerned about diluting their player base as much as other MMO's might. I would think this would have been thought thru by them with the introduction of heros. Because ANets world is kind of the reverse of the MMO industry(the towns are populated- the world is instanced), one could argue that any change that might dilute the player base could be substantial.
I agree with you to this extent; I would go for more story, more new mechanics (read auction house, etc) and less new world for the next chapter, but, in the end, they're going to have to keep growing their world to succeed.
I do support the idea of some type of reward while teamed with actual players. I think this is how ANet needs to approach the next few chapters. People will always respond better to the carrot instead of the stick.

-AN

Thoughtful commentary, thanks.

I would prefer to think ANet has an over all plan, I am sure they do story-arc wise and so forth; but from all appearances it seems the game has grown rather organically.

This isn't totally bad, it really shows a delightfully creative process. But, it can also be a good way for a development team to paint itself into a corner.

No doubt in my mind that the Game must grow to be successful even if they had a more traditional business model.

Heroes are popular and a hugely successful addition to the game, but they also tend to work against some of the things that make a game strong and ultimately enjoyable in the long term.

But, countering the negative impact of Heroes to the game is just a portion of the overall challenges:

-Player base thinly spread and fragmented
-Use of Heroes discouraging/reducing player interactions
-Stalled/static character development after level 20 <this has nothing to do with raising the cap>
-World/global story line becoming jumbled/messy due to chronological issues
-Striking a better balance between a linear, mission driven story line and player freedom and immersion
-Undeveloped opportunities in the first 3 campaign areas

Wulfgast · Feb 07, 2007, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Kuldebar -- when I read your very first post and noticed you mentioned "races", I laughed out loud, because I knew you were just going to get flamed for it. I agree that the aversion is rather psychotic.

If we're specifically trying to not be like WoW, then Anet needs to remove swords from the game as well. Swords are everywhere in WoW, and that's just too similar.

However, if we stop trying to compare ourselves to other games, I fully support the future inclusion of races. Us debating on how they would go about implementing a new race is really a moot point, because in the end it's up to the GW devs. If they want to include a race, they'll find a way. Just as a prediction, though, I believe they would focus their efforts on one at a time, because of the overall complexity of such an addition.

I have to admit, though... my desire for a Norsk-themed expansion supersedes my desire to bring the previous 3 campaigns together. If that ends up being the theme of the next release, I won't be playing anything else anyway.

Meat Axe · Feb 07, 2007, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

My feeling is that Heroes could stay exactly as they are now but ANet could introduce bonuses of some type that would encourage people to play together.

I feel that Anet would LOSE a lot of customers this way. The way I see it, there's about half people who want to play solo, the other half want to play with real people (This is just judging by the amount of postings for and against heroes and whatnot. Actually, there are a lot more against them, but that's beside the point). I don't think that people should get rewarded just because of their preferred style of gameplay. Discrimination is never the way to go. We see enough of it in real life. Guild Wars, and any other game, is supposed to be an escape.

Now, I agree with most of your other points. I think an expansion to the older campaigns would be cool. I liked the idea of global quests from Scorchio. But I really feel that the next chapter in Guild Wars should be on a different continent. If they had an expansion pack and a new campaign, that would be cool. But just an expansion pack, or the new campaign set in one of the pre-existing continents, would lose a lot of players. A lot of people wouldn't want to go back and see the same old scenery (as I've stated in my other posts). So, if they did both, great. If they just do a new campaign, with new continent to explore, also great. If they just do expansion of old continents, not so great.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 07, 2007, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meat Axe

I feel that Anet would LOSE a lot of customers this way. The way I see it, there's about half people who want to play solo, the other half want to play with real people

Not to put too fine a point on it, but let's say you run a bar that attracts the type of people that start bar fights on a continual basis and intimidate your "other" customers. Perhaps you may want to lessen the bar's appeal to the rowdy bunch by changing how your bar operates: decor, service, bouncers, etc.

At what point do you end up shooting yourself in the foot?

On the other point you raised:

My feeling is that there isn't much of a difference if the next expansion takes place on an entirely different land mass or another planet, effectively it will result in a further disintegration of the player based society and add to the "dead-end" nature of the earlier expansions. I feel that it is in ANet's best interest (as well as the player base) that the previous chapters remain attractive to people shopping for games. In other words, it helps the game if people still play Prophecies because that creates a pool of players that are more likely to buy other campaigns.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wulfgast

Kuldebar -- when I read your very first post and noticed you mentioned "races", I laughed out loud, because I knew you were just going to get flamed for it. I agree that the aversion is rather psychotic.

We are living in the Days (perhaps, Daze) of Hysteria.

Yeah, I really don't get the Race Aversion thing.

I think what people mean to protest is how WoW has "racial bonuses", but in my mind that has nothing to do with how Guild Wars could implement other playable races to freshen up the game's story line and angles.

-omg PvP!? WoW has PvP!

-omg loading screens!? WoW has loading screens!

-omg magic!? WoW has magic!

and so on...

Wulfgast · Feb 07, 2007, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

I think what people mean to protest is how WoW has "racial bonuses", but in my mind that has nothing to do with how Guild Wars could implement other playable races to freshen up the game's story line and angles.

Even then, racial characteristics could easily fit into the GW model. I think the best (and easiest) way for them to implement races would be to treat it as a profession. For example, you would choose your class as Centaur, gain racial-based skills and attributes to represent your advancement in tauric natural abilities, then choose a secondary profession of your liking. This brings the focus to unique racial abilities, distinguishing them from humans. Likewise, a human could choose a race as a secondary profession to represent the mingling of bloodlines.

If any of you have played tabletop D&D, this very closely parallels the idea of racial hit die adjustments. It could be very balanced and straightforward with some thoughtful planning.

But, I suppose I'm steering the topic away from your original intent, Kuldebar, so I'll shut up about my race rants. :P

tijo · Feb 07, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meat Axe

But I really feel that the next chapter in Guild Wars should be on a different continent. If they had an expansion pack and a new campaign, that would be cool. But just an expansion pack, or the new campaign set in one of the pre-existing continents, would lose a lot of players. A lot of people wouldn't want to go back and see the same old scenery (as I've stated in my other posts). So, if they did both, great. If they just do a new campaign, with new continent to explore, also great. If they just do expansion of old continents, not so great.

The way i see it, the new continent could be connected to a part of an old one. A bit like the desolation is connected to the crystal desert. That way the major part of the storyline would take place on the new continent but at some point, you would go to the previous continent to experience a part the storyline.

A. Noid · Feb 07, 2007, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Heroes are popular and a hugely successful addition to the game, but they also tend to work against some of the things that make a game strong and ultimately enjoyable in the long term.

I wonder how divisive (if at all) hero implementation was in the developers meetings. While they are solo(ish) friendly, they do detract from the MMO side. Personally, I'd have allowed 2 heros. But that's me.

Quote:

But, countering the negative impact of Heroes to the game is just a portion of the overall challenges:

-Player base thinly spread and fragmented
-Use of Heroes discouraging/reducing player interactions
-Stalled/static character development after level 20 <this has nothing to do with raising the cap>
-World/global story line becoming jumbled/messy due to chronological issues
-Striking a better balance between a linear, mission driven story line and player freedom and immersion
-Undeveloped opportunities in the first 3 campaign areas

I'll take the above point by point.

1. MMO's have to update their product as well. These typically have a combination of world/tech/story. The other guys have the same problem/challenges.
2. I agree, but isn't that what they said about henchies?
3. I can agree with this, but at some point, every MMO player faces this issue.
4. I really can't comment on this.
5. I actually prefer the story line. I think Prof did a wonderful job with this. I like the story telling. It actually allows me to 'let go' of Prof when I finish and look forward to the next chapter.
6. This I could see being a mini expansion set. Maybe thru the online store. But I agree, there are many things I'd like to see more work on.

I guess, really, GW is facing what every MMO is facing- to a degree. GW is just going to realize this sooner (I would think) than most.

On behalf of races, I prefer to keep things as they are. Seems right to me. However, I wouldn't be put out if they opened it up- I probably just wouldn't play them.

-AN

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 07, 2007, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. Noid

1. MMO's have to update their product as well. These typically have a combination of world/tech/story. The other guys have the same problem/challenges.
2. I agree, but isn't that what they said about henchies?
3. I can agree with this, but at some point, every MMO player faces this issue.
4. I really can't comment on this.
5. I actually prefer the story line. I think Prof did a wonderful job with this. I like the story telling. It actually allows me to 'let go' of Prof when I finish and look forward to the next chapter.
6. This I could see being a mini expansion set. Maybe thru the online store. But I agree, there are many things I'd like to see more work on.

I guess, really, GW is facing what every MMO is facing- to a degree. GW is just going to realize this sooner (I would think) than most.

1. Since Guild Wars is releasing nearly 4X the number of expansions <roughly> a year than the other big names in the genre; it basically means that ANet increases the inherent challenges by 4 times as well.

In other games an expansion would generally still require your character to "grow up" in the already established areas before moving on to the new expanded content.

But, Guild Wars "drops" its older areas like the Space Shuttle drops booster rockets and empty fuel tanks. It gets expensive after a while.

2. Heroes are just a stronger and more potent dose of the same poison, so most of the commentary about Henchies is very similar.

3. Character development after a certain point isn't one of Guild War's strong suits. Other games raise level caps, that solution won't work in Guild Wars for various reasons. The main reason being that it would go against the basic principles of what Guild Wars is all about. Improving the social scene would out a lot in this area.

4. What I mean by messy and jumbled is how ANet made the different campaigns overlapping chronologically instead of regular time line. Taking characters from other campaigns into another will give you a closer look at the disjointed nature of the story flow.

Additionally, the road blocks placed in the way of characters trying to travel into other campaign areas. (IE. non-Prophecies character traveling to get to Yak's Bend)

5. I have nothing against a mission driven story, but I would have preferred it to have retained a chronological linearity from Campaign to Campaign. (see #4 above) Also, it does lock down a player more than it needs to. Compare how Prophecies allowed freer exploration as compared to Nightfall or especially, Factions.

6. Mini-expansion or full expansion, just something to get the mass of players crossing paths more frequently.

Xenophon Ualtar · Feb 07, 2007, 07:59 PM // 19:59

I fully agree that building onto the existing areas would be a nice way to go. There is a lot of open areas in each of the existing areas. A few of my guildies put all of the maps together and there are areas where they adjoin that would be plenty big enough to use as part of the another story. To keep people that want "new" content happy ANet could always expand on these regions somewhat.

Reusing towns and outposts would work out nicely for some of these areas. Especially, where Tyria and Elona join in the desert. I am not saying that the entire chapter should be built in old towns but having new uses for old places would be fun. I really like some of those Tyrian towns but I have little reason to go back these days.

I also agree that it would be nice to not have any new professions in the next chapter. It is becoming increasingly difficult to play through each chapter with all of my characters. Most of my characters beat Shiro in factions but they did so by going through the Kurzik side. I was unable to get them all through the Luxon side also. With Nightfall though, I am likely only going to get half of my characters through the story.

A. Noid · Feb 07, 2007, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

But, Guild Wars "drops" its older areas like the Space Shuttle drops booster rockets and empty fuel tanks. It get expensive after a while.

For better or for worse, this is the bed ANet has made. Consider this, however, those chapters no longer produce a relevent amount of revenue for ANet. That being the case, I would imagine any changes involving them would be minor. This is the crux, then. Players will want/expect a full blown chapter every release. I think it would be detrimental to ANet to produce anything less. This is where a mini campaign would have to be how I think your proposal should be handled.

Quote:

3. Character development after a certain point isn't one of Guild War's strong suits. Other games raise level caps, that solution won't work in Guild Wars for various reasons. The main reason being that it would go against the basic principles of what Guild Wars is all about. Improving the social scene would out a lot in this area.

This is a valid point. One of the reasons I enjoy this game.

Quote:

4. What I mean by messy and jumbled is how ANet made the different campaigns overlapping chronologically instead of regular time line. Taking characters from other campaigns into another will give you a closer look at the disjointed nature of the story flow.

I got the jist of your statement, but I am only 1/2 way thru Factions myself. Slow going here=)

Quote:

Additionally, the road blocks placed in the way of characters trying to travel into other campaign areas. (IE. non-Prophecies character traveling to get to Yak's Bend)

Well now, there has to be some incentive to buying the other chapters. Albeit, you still are left with the future chapter characters left out, but you can still enjoy the world.

Quote:

6. Mini-expansion or full expansion, just something to get the mass of players crossing paths more frequently.

Agree wholeheartedly.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 07, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

A. Noid:

Some minor points..

When I spoke of "obstacles" I was referring to owners of all the applicable chapters not being able to take their already leveled character wholly into the new/another chapter...it's not a really good fit. <I won't go into hindsight solutions about how they could have structured the Campaign flow, cat's already out of the bag, so it would serve no purpose.>

Concerning "relevant amount of revenue" from older campaigns...I see each campaign as a foundation block, if ANet makes them "disposable" or devalues them it will just hurt the future of the game. At the end of the day a healthy playerbase is what determines a games success in the market. Additionally, by revitalizing older areas in an appropriate manner, ANet doesn't need to entirely reinvent the wheel, possibly saving some development costs.

But, don't get me wrong, there still must be new and creative content.

Xenophon Ualtar:

Yeah, you understand what I'm saying about the 4th campaigns approach to improving the game. I feel it would be entirely possible to base a new expansion with in the boundaries of the existing Campaigns.

Silly Warrior · Feb 08, 2007, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

1.
6. Mini-expansion or full expansion, just something to get the mass of players crossing paths more frequently.

I totally agree 100% with what you just said.

The game really does need more expansions, think how much people loved Sorrows Furnace? It was an end game area, and was totally free, and the drops were nice, but most of all it was FUN.

I would pay 3-5 dollars a month for a cool update in an area, not a SUBSCRIPTION, but something purchased in the online store. And yes, areas need to be overlapped, using the same outposts.

I don't know about all of you, but getting montly, or even every other month optional expansions would be GREAT. Not only that, if the updates went over already existing areas, it would great more people in that area.

Perhaps even cross-campaign missions and quests, or areas. What happens on the top of those mountains in-between prophecies and elona? Who knows, maybe a giant speggetti monster....

. Either way, I'd love seeing a full sized map, and things going on in between campaigns.

Imagine riding a boat for a challenge mission, killing squids along the way as you make your way from Lions Arch to Kamadan along the dangerous ocean....lol. Man...I'm such a nerd.

Long story short, Anet needs a team to work on frequent optional updates, it will only strengthen the community.

Meat Axe · Feb 08, 2007, 03:36 PM // 15:36

I also agree that expansion packs would be cool. But only if they were offered from the online store, as opposed to replacing one of the new campaigns. I think that offering both would be a good idea, since then you are providing for those who are quite happy to stay in their old environments that they enjoy, and also for those who want new places to see and explore.

Meat Axe · Feb 08, 2007, 03:37 PM // 15:37

I also agree that expansion packs would be cool. But only if they were offered from the online store, as opposed to replacing one of the new campaigns. I think that offering both would be a good idea, since then you are providing for those who are quite happy to stay in their old environments that they enjoy, and also for those who want new places to see and explore.

Thomas.knbk · Feb 08, 2007, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

This doesn't necessarily require that ANet:

-add new skills
-add new professions

I'd rather have that Anet doesn't add new skills/professions, because that is always followed by a good few months of imbalance.
From a financial point of view it wouldn't be doable though, because no PvP'er would buy the new chapter.

freekedoutfish · Feb 08, 2007, 04:52 PM // 16:52

cant remember if i posted...

but aslong as they dont add material which would render the GMC title invalid then im up for it.

BahamutKaiser · Feb 08, 2007, 05:01 PM // 17:01

I think this is pretty much what would happen if they considered my sea exploration theme. By linking the continents of new and even future locations with a sea chapter, we would see alot of the coast of previous chapters, and perhaps even share a few locations like port towns, with limited access to those who do not have those chapters.

Also, the most likely race choices as Dwarves, Tengu, and Centaur, as those are the 3 that allie you, Char are totally destructive, and would require a revolution in the storyline to add as allies.

But this isn't the issue I thought it would be, intermingling the exsisting chapters is a good diversity and promotional option, but the focus of the 4th chapter really needs to be insentive and promotion of cooperative play.

Heros are the greatest thing, I want to be able to make an entire party of heros, of even 8 units. But cooperative play and social environment is what makes a game community strong, and brings statisfaction that cannot be measured by how good a game is. I think the highest and most significant goal they can achieve would be promoting and rewarding cooperative play, that way, even with hero options, people would choose to play with eachother because of particularly enjoyable features and rewards.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 08, 2007, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

Heros are the greatest thing, I want to be able to make an entire party of heros, of even 8 units. But cooperative play and social environment is what makes a game community strong, and brings statisfaction that cannot be measured by how good a game is. I think the highest and most significant goal they can achieve would be promoting and rewarding cooperative play, that way, even with hero options, people would choose to play with eachother because of particularly enjoyable features and rewards.

My thoughts as well.

It's not a "Heroes are evil and PuG's are good" argument in my mind.

But, to be intellectually honest, requires that I admit that the popularity of Heroes does represent a detrimental trend in the game.

A British Study <if it's British, it must be "freekin" good"> on people that play online games do so for a fairly small number of definable reasons. In another article on the study, one of the things people seek in online gaming is connecting with others and belonging.

Quote:

The research published...in the journal Motivation and Emotion found that the driving force that draws people to games was not fun — which doesn't keep players interested — but instead a sense of achievement, freedom and even social connectedness.

"We think there's a deeper theory than the fun of playing," University of Rochester motivational psychologist Richard Ryan said in a written statement.

I feel that any game that works against that goal is shooting itself in the foot.

Ralli Pemirl · Feb 08, 2007, 06:33 PM // 18:33

/signed on the races

Because I am a new player who only owns one chapter (nightfall) and hasn't completed the content there, I have no opinion yet on adding new content.

It is kind of a bummer that the other new GW players in my guild also have only one chapter, and a different one, so we cannot play together. And experienced guildies have to choose between helping newbies in Prophecies, Factions and Nightfall, they cannot play with us at the same time.

I think Guild Wars would benefit from another race or more noticable variety with human characters because such choices could motivate people who have quit the game up or haven't bought it yet to buy this new chapter. Hopefully the changes would come with more of Guild Wars' extremely interesting storyline. Reading wow's stories in quests, etc. is like cereal boxes.

There are statistics out there showing how many WoW players play Humans and the other races. I didn't find the links, but it is about 75% of wow players who prefer non-human characters. This is about 6 million people.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 09, 2007, 05:33 PM // 17:33

It's funny how much resistance there is to the very suspicion that Heroes/Improved Henchies have reduced player interaction with other players to at least some degree within Guild Wars.

It's like after having added salt to a glass of water, someone opposing the idea that the water is now saltier than before...