Curse

Shuuda · Mar 20, 2007, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

Shadow Walk
5 energy, 1/4 second cast, 10 second recast
Shadow Step to target spirit, if target spirit is an enemy, deal 40 damage......

1/4 cast time, that's a nerf on this skill as far I care, I like it as a stance because of the no after cast time, the best part about it if you ask me. The fact that it's a stance also makes it balanced as you cannot use an IAS with, a fair skill as it is.

Spartan Link · Mar 20, 2007, 08:57 AM // 08:57

after reading all these i have no idea what is being discussed

skills are balanced because they are unbalanced in the game is that soo wrong?

if you want to beable to hit and escape then uas death charge and another skill like death retreat one get you in the other get you out.

Stormlord Alex · Mar 20, 2007, 09:23 AM // 09:23

What's being discussed (well... initially anyways) is that non-elite Shadowstepping skills have too long a recharge, and 'sins thusly cannot fulfill their role of suprise attacker without using up their elite.

I'd rather see lead attacks buffed... But a 30-sec cooldown on Death's Charge and Dark Prison wouldn't go amiss, it would make them on par with Shadow Walk... Shadow Walk would then need to have a reduced recharge, to make up for the lack of IAS. Whatever.

/signed.

And while I'm on 'sin skills... Would it huirt to have an IAS in the 'sin skills themselves?
Would anyone care if us IAS lovers stole Deadly Haste?

djbartek · Mar 20, 2007, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

And while I'm on 'sin skills... Would it huirt to have an IAS in the 'sin skills themselves?
Would anyone care if us IAS lovers stole Deadly Haste?

Deadly Haste as it is now is totally useless and is a great way to waste a skill slot. Making it an IAS based skill would be REALLY nice.

Vengal · Mar 20, 2007, 03:45 PM // 15:45

lol Make shadow stepping skills better and they will be used on other classes, more often Warriors, more then they will on an assassin. And theyll be more effective with it too. Assassins have other issues that should be looked into such as ease of disruption and lack of any real punch in a team situation. Hell, even on gank there are other classes that can do just as well or better then the sin. Shame since they are my faves, but its the truth.

Symbol · Mar 21, 2007, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Using shadowsteps doesn't take skill. Anyone who has played melee without shadowsteps knows about the importance of positioning and frequent shadowstepping does remove that from the game.

That said I don't mind death's charge and death's return getting lower recharges, say 30 and 10 seconds resp. Death's return in particular still requires you to pay attention to your surroundings since it needs a party member as target-you can't overextend and then expect DR to save you.

Things like recall don't need buffing.

BahamutKaiser · Mar 22, 2007, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Paying attention to your survival is harder than negotiating your surroundings. Death is the ultimate loss. Depending on the compensation of shadowsteps for a lack of defense is harder than negotiating your surroundings with enough armor to be passed for an acceptable target to attack. And trying to maginify the advantages of shadowstep wile overlooking the advantages of survival and skill slot requirement isn't an argument, it is a failure. Which is why I walk over so many weak denials all the time.

Alias Thrasher · Mar 22, 2007, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Honestly, sins dont need this, they are really pushing the envelope of being overpowered as they are.

Symbol · Mar 22, 2007, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Paying attention to your survival is harder than negotiating your surroundings. Death is the ultimate loss. Depending on the compensation of shadowsteps for a lack of defense is harder than negotiating your surroundings with enough armor to be passed for an acceptable target to attack.

1) This is a strawman. Whether or not playing a lower armor class takes more skill is not the question. The fact is that using the shadowsteps themselves does not take skill. It removes it. Before you had to worry about positioning, now you don't.

2) Ever heard of frenzy? Warriors absolutely have to be aware of their surroundings, and people do try and spike them out, esp when they overextend or are playing defensively.

Higher armor doesn't negate the need to pay attention, that you assume so just shows that you have no idea what you're talking aobut.

Quote:

And trying to maginify the advantages of shadowstep wile overlooking the advantages of survival and skill slot requirement isn't an argument, it is a failure. Which is why I walk over so many weak denials all the time.

Is that what you're doing? I thought you mostly wrote long winded polemics about nothing much in particular. The clarification is much appreciated.

BahamutKaiser · Mar 22, 2007, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Again, exhaulting the difficulty of maneuvering wile underestimating the difficulty of survival. That is your subjectivity. Having lower armor and staying alive is more significant than movement. And a direct compensation for movement difficulty and risk in exchange for survival difficulty is perfectly balanced. It takes plenty of skill to select a proper target, act at the appropriate time, execute your shadowsteps and execute attacks quickly, escape enemy reprocusions, and moreover, consume at least one, naturally two skill slots to reach and escape your foe. Less skill slots means less additional abilities to attack, defend, heal or otherwise, creating further weakness. Again the cost of using shadowsteps, often 2 skill slots to shadowstep to and away from your foe is the most significant requirement, unlike armor which doesn't require any skill slots.

We can just read your first bullet there to see that you totally discard the fact that it is more difficult for Assassin to survive, yet you try to claim a rational and objective analysis. Wile falsely claiming that shadowsteping doesn't require awareness of your surroundings and attention. You have the nerve to claim that Warriors actually do have to be aware of threats wile under the influence of certain skills (or other far less vulnerable situations) wile pretending difficulty of survival with an assassin, which is 100% of the time, is "not part of the question". Such EXTREMELY and utterly bias veiwpoints are totally irrelavent, they are not legitimate arguements toward your opinion.

Again, you try to narrowly describe the difficulties of movement and overlook the advantage of natural defensive advantage. Just because you can get to your foe instantly doesn't mean it doesn't take talent or awareness of your surroundings. Often it can take more, If an Assassin moves ahead of his team he overextends himself, and becomes even more vulnerable than he already is, far more than any warrior would have to worry about, Assassins must wait for the appropriate time to strike. And once they are in the frey they must act quickly to take the foe by surprise and reduce the amount of vulnerability they expose themselves to, and afterward they must locate an appropriate allie to select as a retreat target and do so quickly enough to avoid spiking, which doesn't take a full enemy team effort or particular counter skills to succeed.

On the other hand you have a Warrior, who is far less likely to overextend himself with an increased movement speed skill, since it doesn't put him in front of his teammates at nearly the same rate. They have much less difficulty surviving a spike no matter how you deny thier defensive superiority. And their increased movement speed skills offer the added advantage of chasing a foe more easily and escape, besides reaching their foe, in one skill instead of two.

The understanding and danger of positioning is just as relevent for shadowsteping with an Assassin as it is for a Warrior on foot. And no matter how difficult you pretend it is for warrior to survive in situations dire enough to kill the toughest target in the game, it is still easiest, and by far easier than surviving with an Assassin.

Including the fact that possitioning and observation of your surroundings is just as significant and neccessary for a shadowsteper as it is for a charger, the fact that, no matter how you deny it, Warrior has a far easier time surviving than Assassin, and that Shadowsteping builds are more cost heavy in not just energy, but the most significant and outstanding cost by far, additional skill slots, Assassin has a perfectly rational claim to better shadowsteping.

Now if you can introduce some valid and significant figures which grant shadowsteping unreasonable power under my revision, than feel free to add more, but if your going to continue denying the overwhelming evidence (and yes it is overwhelming which is why I write so much on it) that Assassins deserve and should have better shadowsteping with your subjective claims and prejudice than I woln't bother discussing this further.

You can't pretend like Assassin Shadowsteping requires less awareness of your surroundings than Warrior advances with IMS when it is widely known that the result of a premature shadowstep is instantanious death, and a Warrior is the hardest target to kill. If unequipted to face a Warrior, they can be nearly impossible for several foes to kill, wile even defensive team builds can dedicate part of thier team to defeat an Assassin who is left vulnerable. You can't overlook the additional cost of extra skill slots for advancing, retreating, and even Increased movement speed or target speed reducing skills to keep on your foe in some combinations.

And since an Assassin can already shadowstep to their foe and inflict dazed every 20 seconds with Beguiling Haze, it is nearly no different if they use a functional (better recharge) non-elite shadowstep to reach their foe and effective elite attacks to deal devistating effects and damage instead, with perfectly equal result in comparison with the cost in skill slot requirement and energy cost.

Quote:

And trying to maginify the advantages of shadowstep wile overlooking the advantages of survival and skill slot requirement isn't an argument, it is a failure. Which is why I walk over so many weak denials all the time.

I ment it exactly the way I said it because it was perfectly accurate, and false denials do not vindicate you, your wrong whether your accept it or not.

Symbol · Mar 23, 2007, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Again, you are wrong and it's clear that you've never played melee without shadowsteps for any significant length of time.

The fact of the matter is that positioning matters more without shadowsteps than it does with them. Shadowsteps do not require skill. Everything you've cited as necessary for "effective" shadowstepping (target selection, timing) is even more important to playing melee without shadowsteps.

Offensive shadowsteps completely destroy the idea of concealing a spike. No longer do you have to try to draw prot to a false target, then switch to a nearby one. Why bother when you can close the distance instantly and unload? Unlike a shadowstep, switching targets when playing melee is incredibly obvious if you have to move any significant distance-that's why positioning yourself to take advantage of ball ups is important.

Furthermore offensive shadowsteps make overextending easier, because they have no forewarning. Esp combined with massive damage compression (read BoA sin) it means that it's almost trivially easy to pick a target, unload, and get out because their melee won't be in a position to spike you out. There's virtually no risk involved if you're not blatantly retarded (i.e trying to port into their backline before the engagement starts).

Defensive shadowsteps mean that you can overextend easily, and make splits retardedly easy (in the case of things like recall and AoD). That means less time spent evaluating whether the risk is worth the reward-if something goes bad you can get the hell out of there with little or no cost. The exception are things like death's return which require you to be within an aggro bubble of a party member-so it actually require some awareness.

And guess what, that's why I support buffs to death's return (also death's charge, to balance it relatively to shadow walk and dark prison). But improvements to AoD, recall, etc? Hell no.

Quote:

I ment it exactly the way I said it because it was perfectly accurate, and false denials do not vindicate you, your wrong whether your accept it or not.

Nope, you were wrong, are wrong now, and will continue to be wrong until the sun burns out. Strawman arguments and ignorance of what positioning means to melee are not a substitute for correctness.

BahamutKaiser · Mar 23, 2007, 01:43 AM // 01:43

For a warrior who can afford to chase his target and has the lowest risk of being killed wherever he is, it is acceptable to toggle between targets and cover ground to fight. Warriors arn't ment to surprise attack, which is why their arsenal involves running skills, heavy defense, continous attacks and charge up attack skills.

Assassin incorperates surprise attack and powerful attack skills to overcome their lower weapon damage and weaker defense. It is just as much a challenge to make a build including several movement skills which lack the luxury of additional build utility.

Surprise attack is a completely natural feature of an Assassin, just because shadowstep gets an Assassin to a foe quickly doesn't mean they must not strategize which target to strike, when to strike, and coordinate with their teammates. Also, because of Assassin attack skill dependance, they are far easier to thwart than an attacker who relies on preasure, an Assassin doesn't appear out of thin air, they must reach the danger zone of a foe to execute, and there is plenty of time to utilize defensive measures against an Assassin, as if they cannot be destroyed faster than they destroy themselves.

I'm done addressing your falsehood and prejudice, just because you only appreciate and respect piloting operations instead of higher cost, survival difficulty and dependancy doesn't mean that they are not equally significant. No matter how you feel about it, Warriors should not function as well with Assassins compensation abilities, and Assassins should not be limited because of a combination of Warriors given advantage and Assassins skill compensation. It is a neccessary feature for Assassin to gain regular efficiency with shadowsteps, and diversity in their build options.

The restrictions of Warriors should apply one Assassins when Warriors and Assassins have all the same features. I fully understand the workings of melee strategy, along with the difference in status between Assassin and Warrior that is demanded by gameplay diversity and Assassins dispargence from Warrior features. Cough it up all you want, since you can't respect any of Assassins weaknesses you cannot develope a balanced conclusion. And if you really think there isn't a difference, than try a Warrior build with an Assassin and suffer the lack of armor. With arguments like these, we could very well say Elementist shouldn't be able to dish out damage since he can do it from a distance and Warriors have the disadvantage of running to their foes, never mind 40 less armor vs physical damage and 20 less armor vs elemental, that's not part of the question.

Ignored.