Curse

Not A Fifty Five · Mar 17, 2007, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenshi_strife

gladly
[skill]searing flames[/skill][skill]glowing gaze[/skill][skill]mark of rodgort[/skill][skill]meteor shower[/skill][skill]glyph of sacrifice[/skill][skill]fire attunement[/skill][skill]aura of restoration[/skill][skill]resurrection chant[/skill]

if we assume one target, and for simplicity searing flames with a recharge of 0we end up with 119 damage ever 1.75 (aftercast) so about 70 DPS.

However, in reality, you'll be kiting, casting glyphs, completely running out of energy even if you took out glyph and put in glyph of lesser because your attunement will get stripped, casting mark of rodgort. This would go down to about 40 DPS. Raise it to say 70 for hitting multiple targets sometimes. Okay so maybe you're right, heh

The Hand Of Death · Mar 17, 2007, 01:30 AM // 01:30

I don't see degen over powered for people with less health. That is kind of the point, it should be easier to kill someone with less health then with more health, degen shouldn't be determined by the amount of health someone has. In AB I am always using degen to kill my target, wether it be using an illusion mesmer, a hexing necro, or a condition spamming ranger, I use degen and frankly I don't find anything wrong with it the way it is.

~Death~

tenshi_strife · Mar 17, 2007, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not A Fifty Five

if we assume one target, and for simplicity searing flames with a recharge of 0we end up with 119 damage ever 1.75 (aftercast) so about 70 DPS.

However, in reality, you'll be kiting, casting glyphs, completely running out of energy even if you took out glyph and put in glyph of lesser because your attunement will get stripped, casting mark of rodgort. This would go down to about 40 DPS. Raise it to say 70 for hitting multiple targets sometimes. Okay so maybe you're right, heh

you also have to add buring damage and gaze damage and the occational MS damage which brings it quite over the top

Not A Fifty Five · Mar 17, 2007, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenshi_strife

you also have to add buring damage and gaze damage and the occational MS damage which brings it quite over the top

well.. I'm assuming energy glyph replaces with sac glyph and liquid flame in place of MS. And fire damage is less than your standard 119 so that would be more negative damage than damage.

Edit: Since the above coutns 119 damage as the only source, I contribute it as a negative that brings the average to 40 before aoe

Evilsod · Mar 17, 2007, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Theres no point suggesting something that Anet would never consider in a million years. The main weakness of a 55 monk is that degen will own him in seconds without Breeze, they'd just be giving them power they didn't need.

And yeah... Mystic Regen is already extremely lame as it is, it belongs in Mysticism to stop secondaries abusing it.

Would make degen impossible to balance, losing 20 health a second isn't much... 8 people losing 20 health a second, now thats tricky to counter. 8 people losing 5% max health a second is just insane.

Takuna · Mar 17, 2007, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Uh, do you guys pvp at all? Degen pressure is already insanely powerful (if you don't believe me, watch Kry or some degen pressure team play it), and if you increase your damage to 5% per second (~30 health loss), it'd be like bumping the damage up the roof and destroying the entire game of guild wars. Every team will be degen pressure, and all monks will carry 3 hex removals, 3 condition removals, and no prots since it's not needed.

For the most part, Anet balances this game for pvp, not because your little conjure phantasm doesn't do anything in pve and no one wants a mesmer degener. Imagine if you did conjure nightmare on lich, shiro, or abaddon now with 5% health loss/sec? Even pve will be retarded...

And it sounds like some people want to 55 farm but they get owned by degen, so they have to sign something like this.

/NOTsigned, and anyone who signs this clearly isn't thinking things through.

Actually, he has a point, I went up against a mesmer once which had ridiculous degens slapped all over me. The only way I could win was to first cancel out some of the degen with my own vast amounts of regen skills and then spike her like a bat outa hell.

Evilsod · Mar 17, 2007, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takuna

Actually, he has a point, I went up against a mesmer once which had ridiculous degens slapped all over me. The only way I could win was to first cancel out some of the degen with my own vast amounts of regen skills and then spike her like a bat outa hell.

Over-Degen can't do jack vs straight healing, it owns regen, thats it. Come across a degen Mesmer or Necro on a Ranger, your stuffed once it outdoes your Unguent, come across 1 on Warrior... you can't do much damage but it won't kill you, without interrupts anyway.

Thomas.knbk · Mar 17, 2007, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenshi_strife

ok lets adress this one problem at a time

gladly
[skill]searing flames[/skill][skill]glowing gaze[/skill][skill]mark of rodgort[/skill][skill]meteor shower[/skill][skill]glyph of sacrifice[/skill][skill]fire attunement[/skill][skill]aura of restoration[/skill][skill]resurrection chant[/skill]

Ok, assuming the standard 14 Fire Magic, and standard 76 caster armor on your target, the following happens:
Searing Flames deals 80 dmg to your target every three seconds, for 26,666 DPS
Your target is burning constantly for another 14 DPS
When your target is standing still in a meteor shower (which will at most only be 9 seconds out of a minute), he takes another 80 dmg every 3 seconds, or another 26,666 DPS
You hit him for 35 dmg every 9 seconds from Glowing Gaze, or 3,8 DPS
So yeah, in a perfect situation you'll deal 79 DPS 9 seconds out of every minute, and 52 DPS while they are not standing still in a meteor shower.

In a situation where energy matters, and you have no GoLE, where someone can remove your Mark of Rodgort as soon as it's applied and you don't have the energy to put it back on every 5 seconds, your DPS will drop to under 40

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenshi_strife

i can see it as more of a damage thing but ok

That's exactly what it is. It will rarely kill people on its own due to LoD and HP, but the same applies to all types of damage. Melee doesn't kill things on its own either, due to Shield of Deflection and Aegis. You need added pressure from something like snares, enchant removal, or degeneration. The fact that you can't kill things with degen only has to do with the fact that pure DPS is so weak in this game. If you wanna get kills, spike is the way to go. Even in a pressure build the kills come from small spikes on low targets.
You can try to make degen so powerful that it can kill people on its own, but all that would do is make the builds that already use it as additional pressure hugely overpowered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenshi_strife

i think making it a percentage based thing would be much more balanced for those with lower health

High health is supposed to give you an advantage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenshi_strife

i do appreciate you insight

Thank you

Not A Fifty Five · Mar 17, 2007, 06:29 PM // 18:29

What I personally think should happen is to reduce degen/regen to 1.5-1.75 hp per second rather than 2 and remove degen limits. Its kinda silly that you can be "saved" from poison becuase you are diseased and on fire. At 1.5-1.75, the efficiency of such easily spreadable conditions would drop to the point where this would not be overpowered at degen pips between 10 and 50 or whatever. Reaper's mark e.g. would do about 225 or so damage for 5 energy rather than 300. Anyways, if you agree with this state which value you think would be appropriate.

And sorry for hijacking your thread, but mods will immediately close a new thread I make under grounds of too much similarity to this thread given the recent trend to close anything and everthing

Priest Of Sin · Mar 17, 2007, 06:35 PM // 18:35

This would be rather pointless, as it wouldn't change the system very much. Degen would still be worthless.

Now, if they removed the cap... maybe mesmers would become spikers again xD

Thomas.knbk · Mar 17, 2007, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not A Fifty Five

What I personally think should happen is to reduce degen/regen to 1.5-1.75 hp per second rather than 2 and remove degen limits.

You might've guessed it already, but I think they should just leave degen alone.

Div · Mar 23, 2007, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Priest Of Sin

This would be rather pointless, as it wouldn't change the system very much. Degen would still be worthless.

Now, if they removed the cap... maybe mesmers would become spikers again xD

The day they remove the cap is the day I remake my pve mesmer and own everything with conjure nightmare+conjure phantasm.

The day they change degen to 0.5% health per pip (5% when 10 pips) is the day that I will kill mallyx in 20 seconds ^ ^

Guildmaster Cain · Mar 23, 2007, 03:39 PM // 15:39

My derv has +21 pips regen, bring em on!

Series · Mar 23, 2007, 04:04 PM // 16:04

For people who think the original idea sucks and would break the game... think about it.

-10 degen would be 5% health a second. It would take TWENTY SECONDS to kill you at max degen. Honestly, if you are under -10 degen for twenty whole seconds, you deserve to die (of course, this is disregarding both damage and heals, but according to some, "all anybody will ever do is degen"). Compare this to a spike which will kill you in 1 second. Hmm, what's more powerful, a kill in 20 seconds or a kill in 1 second? So again... how is this overpowered?

/signed for either .5% max health per second lost OR no degen cap.

Aeon_Xin · Mar 23, 2007, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not A Fifty Five

What I personally think should happen is to reduce degen/regen to 1.5-1.75 hp per second rather than 2 and remove degen limits. Its kinda silly that you can be "saved" from poison becuase you are diseased and on fire.

And sorry for hijacking your thread, but mods will immediately close a new thread I make under grounds of too much similarity to this thread given the recent trend to close anything and everthing

I think the limit of 10 degen is good, because if I'm on fire and bleeding, disease or poison can't do any worse.(Though, if more than 10 degen is recieved, everything over should go into a buffer untill it times out....if it doesn't, i never catch that much degen)

Maybe add another pip or two, after ten 1.5 and 1.7 would ammount to almost the same thing. I do run into the -10 wall when PvE ing sometimes though, so here's the math.
1.5 x 10pips 15points/second. Add 5 pips @ 1.5 22.5
1.75x 10pips 17.5 Add 5 @1.75 26.5
2 x 10 20 Add 5 @2 30

If you just make 12 pips max, that'd be 24per second. ok, so increase max by 3 pips?
I don't think we should run on unlimited degen though, that'd get nasty in a hurry.

lol @ mods closing stuff, yeah, some seem to get a kick out of it

Ajora · Mar 23, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenshi_strife

yea but warriors are NOT damage dealers... they can apply pressure but not much damage

Normally don't post here, but yeah, this statement alone made me think you're a moron, or all you do is PvE. Warriors aren't damage dealers? Okay, in the original dual surge builds who did the damage? No no, better yet, which class, originally, was the only one able to apply a deep wound(Effectively anyways. Phantom Pain + Shatter on a mesmer is llololololol)

As to the topic of degen, watch any current hex team. Coupled with shutdown and dervishes it's borderline overpowered. Then play it on Jade Isle? Right.

Degen is fine as is. You can't simply run degen alone, you need shutdown. Diversion/Humility the LoDs. This goes for any build. You can't run warriors with enchantment strips. You can't run conditions without removal shutdown.

The Red Knight · Mar 23, 2007, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenshi_strife

yea but warriors are NOT damage dealers... they can apply pressure but not much damage, if your saying this is overpowered then think of eles dps, which with a good build can do over 70 to 80 dps at a minimum also the degen revamp will be good cause it will be balanced well cause those with low health will be affected the same as thoses with high health

yeah you know like axe hammer and sword do like 0 damage clearly. really you should play some gvg sometime -.-

Tiyuri · Mar 23, 2007, 06:46 PM // 18:46

This entire thread is one monumental fail.

Strange Guy · Mar 24, 2007, 12:26 AM // 00:26

The point of Degen or Regen is to make the output dmg become efficient. Anyone who play monk would understand degen is a nightmare to heal through. By using degen, it's a sure dmg over the period of time (unless being taken out.) Combine this slowly dmg and direct dmg, we can create average output OVER the period of time higher than just using Degen or just using direct dmg. Degen can not be protected unless using Healing breeze which noone ever use unless in 55 monk! Some of the PvE monks use healing breeze as a slow heal and combine this with direct heal to make the average healing output higher! That's my opinion about Degen/Regen.

These are good/bad things that can happen in my opinion:

Good:
- It will eliminate those who solo with their 55 monks.
- Give better use for regen skills.

Bad:
- Prot spirit will be less effective and maybe will not be used anymore (Same for shelter)
- + Health amour is gone. No more use!
- DP out target become meaningless since degen does not do anything good.
- Make more lag as dmg will be shown every sec
- Frenzy is gone because this is dmg per sec mean double OMG.

yesitsrob · Mar 24, 2007, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Lol. What a horrible suggestion. How this thread has lasted 3 pages without being closed is pretty disgraceful