Curse

SotiCoto · Apr 06, 2007, 01:40 PM // 13:40

/signed.

I'm not going to bother justifying it.
Everyone else who has done so just triggers a flame-fest... primarily by the PvPers...

Lets just say I prefer the old Soul Reaping to the new and leave it at that.

Lord Mendes · Apr 06, 2007, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercy's Mirror

Barely understand? No I understand quite well what is going on here. However, I refuse to stoop to your level in my response.

Oh, and I'm not a 'he'.

You lie, girls don't play video games (NOTE: this is a joke).

I have read your post (and disagree with it) and instead of actually enticing me into a debate you gave me a "no comment".
My point is, you are supposed to run into energy problems as a caster, unless you invest a lot into energy management. This can mean going /E just to take Glyph of Lesser energy (aswell as signet of lost souls), or /Mes to take some inspiration energy management.
The harsh reality is that soul reaping is still (mathematically) a very powerful passive primary attribute, superior to anything else. Managing energy should be the hardest thing for a caster, and it is only natural that you have to change your build when you uber energy management becomes just an imba energy management.
The necro was never meant to be such an energy consuming damage dealer, just a powerfull hex bot and/or support role.
EDIT: about the whole "you can't afford 10 points in soul reaping" argument, replace 10 with 8, 2 with 1.6, and 6 with 5. Still extremely imbalanced.
Also, this ties into the whole casters have to make room and invest heavily into energy management. This is true for every other caster in guildwars, you have to sacrifice in order to get the most out of your bar. Take your blood/death down one point, and your curse/whatever down another, and put the remaining attribute points in soul reaping, and it will be all good.
Remember, eles have to run a glyph and a fire attunement, sometimes even elite energy management, and they are (conceptually) meant to be the energy consuming damage dealers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Everyone else who has done so just triggers a flame-fest... primarily by the PvPers...

e-flamefest != discussion.
Not justifying something you are trying to prove makes your point completely moot in the real world.

Terra Xin · Apr 06, 2007, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

The necro was never meant to be such an energy consuming damage dealer, just a powerful hex bot and/or support role.

The energy consuming bit was supposed to be the Mesmer's role, and look what happened to that! Come on necro fans, this nerf was much needed. You have powerful skills at your disposal, the supply shouldn't be just as equal.

Why does everyone try to start a petition to get things through, it's no different to a thread without it. You have no rights to force the game to change even when you don't even own it... hello>?

Thomas.knbk · Apr 06, 2007, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Mendes' post wins this thread. Seriously, gg Mendes.
I would like to point out that PvP balance is based around equality. If something is imbalanced, that equality is gone.
PvE is based around the fact that you are stronger than the monsters. A slight imbalance is not a problem, because that fact is still true: you are stronger than the monsters because hey, the monsters aren't going to adapt their builds in response to a nerf,

I'm also amazed that people seem to think that Minion Masters are (were) not overpowered in PvE. Seriously people, do the math. Think of how many combined DPS your minions deal, and compare this to any other build. The minion master build will outperform any other build almost without a downside.

But that's not even important, because like I said, PvP balance > PvE balance.
Also, if you do not actually play PvP, don't comment on PvP. The 'lern2counter'-argument is stupid, and anyone with a clue about PvP can tell you why.
Secondly, Soul Reaping abuse is very hard to counter. That is because it's not a limited set of skills, no, you can use almost any skill that was supposed to be balanced by its energy cost and make it overpowered. SB/RI hexes were the most popular form of SR abuse, but certainly not the only possible one. N/E's spamming Searing Flames under QZ without ever worrying about energy could have been there too.
The fact is, unlimited or nigh unlimited energy is overpowered no matter what. It's been there a few times, in the form of Ether Renewal, Energizing Finale and now in the form of Soul Reaping with Spirits.
Soul Reaping abuse has occured before, and so far it's always been solved with bandaids. (nerfing the skills that triggered the overpowered mechanic instead of nerfing the overpowered mechanic) Arenanet has finally dared to nerf the mechanic, and I applaude them for that. Good Game Arenanet.

Master Sword Keeper · Apr 06, 2007, 02:04 PM // 14:04

That's too stupid. Soul reaping is there to gain energy everytime a monster dies. *sigh I guess people just wish to make the game bad. I for one am not too worried about necromancers and soul reaping. IE. sig of lost souls.

Still advancements and nerfs are consistant depending on how much the PVP players complain. Also these nerfs are being designed for the NEW GW's game. Won't go into that though. Pretty much that.

Phe Belladona · Apr 06, 2007, 02:06 PM // 14:06

sig of lost souls is brilliant pve nrg management for necros whats wrong with taking it, you dont even need to consume a corpse, it requires no demanded secondary and its in the line that you would have high specs in anyway.. so you need to push the TAB key to find things to gain energy from i think you can handle it ^^ this nerf just means you need a more active role in playing not just watch for when the skills have recharged.

Soul of the Scythe · Apr 06, 2007, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrTickle

All it needed was zero energy gain from spirits.

That would make it realistically useless in PvP.

I have a Necro in PvE and he has an SS build, a BB build, and an MM build. I tried them all last night and had no problems with energy. Why? because I have energy management skills. I didn't have em before because Soul Reaping was WAY overpowered. Now that it is balanced, I had to tweek my builds. No big deal for me, I like a new challenge, that's the point of playing a game, to be challenged. Truth is, I was getting bored with my Necro before this update. My main build was MM(with 83 energy dual 15/-1 mods, no healing prayers, used WoB to keep em alive longer) and let's face it, before this update, MM's never had a problem with energy. I only really ran BB or SS in planned Guild endeavors(i.e. Urgoz, the Deep, SF, UW, certain missions etc.) and even then, never had energy problems.

good update Anet

elsalamandra · Apr 06, 2007, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

To all those who are bashing the necro's as 'lower mages', 'people who need to learn how to play/manage their energy', and other nice names:

I'd like to see how you would react would it have been your primary attribute.

To all the others:
Thanks for discussing this with us.

Good day

I totally agree here and its sickening to see these snobby pvp freaks here defending this nerf that Anerf have given us in PvE and all becuase they get ubber pawned in PvP as if we cared in PvE and the worst whinner is this gods gift to pvp Lord Mendes who is full of himself he could fill the whole universe.

One thing is balancing this a complete draconian nerf which is so typical of the bored anerf employee who is doing the nerfs.

Nerf soul reaping in pvp where most of the people who play it are automated freaks of perfections and leave us pve cavemen as we were happy without disturbing the Diety of the prestigiouis PvP excelencies.

Evilsod · Apr 06, 2007, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Mendes' post wins this thread.

His posts were winning this thread almost before it began...

In time will people will realize that a necro shouldn't be free to spam 10-15e skills with absolutely no regard for there energy pool. They also might stop taking Arcane Echo with everything they do. There were definatly better ways they could've sorted this stat out... i really can't see how this was 1 of the best choices though.

Quote:

I don't know many PvE necros who have 10 in SR. That's a luxury that many builds simply cannot afford.

Ok... am i doing something wrong. From what i've seen running 10 in SR works perfectly with a 3rd attribute line. Things like Aegis, Mystic Regen or Heal Area... or things from your own profession, ie Blood magic/Curses assist spells.

Then again i usually have a sup soul reaping and take along Sig of Lost Souls anyway, you can't get energy till things are dead, and if your outa energy you can't kill things. If there isn't a single enemy near you thats below 50% health in PvE your team is doing something wrong.

Bowstring Badass · Apr 06, 2007, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by elsalamandra

I totally agree here and its sickening to see these snobby pvp freaks here defending this nerf that Anerf have given us in PvE and all becuase they get ubber pawned in PvP as if we cared in PvE and the worst whinner is this gods gift to pvp Lord Mendes who is full of himself he could fill the whole universe.

One thing is balancing this a complete draconian nerf which is so typical of the bored anerf employee who is doing the nerfs.

Nerf soul reaping in pvp where most of the people who play it are automated freaks of perfections and leave us pve cavemen as we were happy without disturbing the Diety of the prestigiouis PvP excelencies.

Want PvE? Go play WoW noob just because you have to take out one skill to bring Signet of Lost Souls (great for energy) or something else cry me a river. Have you noticed that most of the changes ANET made was for PvP purposes not for the PvE'rs oh well you have a less powerful build don't hear me complaining to change Shadow Prison back to 5 energy do you?

Darksun · Apr 06, 2007, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by arzamond

c'mon all ! the nerf only makes this game a little harder! what's wrong with that? u all didn't like challenge??

Actually, I kinda like it. It would be nice for MM to be taken seriously. Now that it's harder to manage energy, being a MM will take skill.

Lord Mendes · Apr 06, 2007, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by elsalamandra

I totally agree here and its sickening to see these snobby pvp freaks here defending this nerf that Anerf have given us in PvE and all becuase they get ubber pawned in PvP as if we cared in PvE and the worst whinner is this gods gift to pvp Lord Mendes who is full of himself he could fill the whole universe.

One thing is balancing this a complete draconian nerf which is so typical of the bored anerf employee who is doing the nerfs.

Nerf soul reaping in pvp where most of the people who play it are automated freaks of perfections and leave us pve cavemen as we were happy without disturbing the Diety of the prestigiouis PvP excelencies.

I'm the one whining?
I have provided nothing but facts with mathematical points to back them up, and YOU are calling me a whiner?
Re-read your post, google the definition of whiner, and then tell me who the bigger whiner is.

Bowstring Badass · Apr 06, 2007, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

I'm the one whining?
I have provided nothing but facts with mathematical points to back them up, and YOU are calling me a whiner?
Re-read your post, google the definition of whiner, and then tell me who the bigger whiner is.

Can we get some ice for this burn on the PvEr?

Mike_version2 · Apr 06, 2007, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by elsalamandra

I totally agree here and its sickening to see these snobby pvp freaks here defending this nerf that Anerf have given us in PvE and all becuase they get ubber pawned in PvP as if we cared in PvE and the worst whinner is this gods gift to pvp Lord Mendes who is full of himself he could fill the whole universe.

One thing is balancing this a complete draconian nerf which is so typical of the bored anerf employee who is doing the nerfs.

Nerf soul reaping in pvp where most of the people who play it are automated freaks of perfections and leave us pve cavemen as we were happy without disturbing the Diety of the prestigiouis PvP excelencies.

You know f****** what, ANET doesnt just sit around a table and go "ZOMG, HOW SHALL WE NERF TEH GAME NOW?, WE DONT LIKE PEOPLE HAVING FUN!!!!!!11" they make there decisions based on what they think is fair and needed.

Deal with it and move on.

Macktar Wang · Apr 06, 2007, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sihaya Syme

To all those who are bashing the necro's as 'lower mages', 'people who need to learn how to play/manage their energy', and other nice names:

I'd like to see how you would react would it have been your primary attribute.

To all the others:
Thanks for discussing this with us.

Good day.

Nerf Strength - oh no? All my builds suck now? Warriors are worthless? Not likely.
Nerf Expertise - actually, yes please. Make it only apply to ranger skills. Rangers would not suck, and the ones that complain about this aren't using a ranger as a ranger.
Nerf Divine Favor - this may suck, but with the rise of LoD monks everywhere, I don't see this being that big of a deal.

Honestly people, Soul Reaping was overpowered. Necros had limitless energy, especially with spirits and minions. I agree that the "fix" to SR should have been that "it doesn't trigger on minions or spirits," but this 5 second lag is not that big of deal. The major outlay of necro energy is at the beginning of the battle. Once everything is half-dead, is energy that important anymore? Hell, my necro is usually sitting back at full energy before the battle is half over, and by the time it is over, Soul Reaping has provided me with about 40 energy that I don't even need!
All I can say is welcome to the ever-changing world of Online Gaming. You have to learn to work with what you have, just like in life. If you can't adapt in a video game, I really see life being a challenge for you.

Terra Xin · Apr 06, 2007, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Someone

To all those who are bashing the necro's as 'lower mages', 'people who need to learn how to play/manage their energy', and other nice names:

I'd like to see how you would react would it have been your primary attribute.

To all the others:
Thanks for discussing this with us.

Good day

1: Fast Casting is already inferior in comparison to the other primary attributes.
2: Soul Reaping was an innate form of continuously supplied energy. The fact that things die in both PvE and PvP becomes irrelevant for a Necro, as they will always gain energy. Other classes have to invest into specific skills with regards to better manage their energy
3: Your rapport states and proves nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elsalamandra

I totally agree here and its sickening to see these snobby pvp freaks here defending this nerf that Anerf have given us in PvE and all becuase they get ubber pawned in PvP as if we cared in PvE and the worst whinner is this gods gift to pvp Lord Mendes who is full of himself he could fill the whole universe.

One thing is balancing this a complete draconian nerf which is so typical of the bored anerf employee who is doing the nerfs.

Nerf soul reaping in pvp where most of the people who play it are automated freaks of perfections and leave us pve cavemen as we were happy without disturbing the Diety of the prestigiouis PvP excelencies.

I know this is irrelevant, but spelling, sentencing and making sense can get your post some miles... If you're sick, please refrain from posting and get yourself a glass of water.

The nerf was taken in perspective of both elements of play. When you are done feeling sick, please re-read Mendes' posts and you should find references to PvE as well as PvP imbalances in regards to Soul Reaping.

Mercy's Mirror · Apr 06, 2007, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

You lie, girls don't play video games (NOTE: this is a joke).

I have read your post (and disagree with it) and instead of actually enticing me into a debate you gave me a "no comment".
My point is, you are supposed to run into energy problems as a caster, unless you invest a lot into energy management. This can mean going /E just to take Glyph of Lesser energy (aswell as signet of lost souls), or /Mes to take some inspiration energy management.
The harsh reality is that soul reaping is still (mathematically) a very powerful passive primary attribute, superior to anything else. Managing energy should be the hardest thing for a caster, and it is only natural that you have to change your build when you uber energy management becomes just an imba energy management.
The necro was never meant to be such an energy consuming damage dealer, just a powerfull hex bot and/or support role.

I refrained from hitting 'submit reply' on my earlier post simply because I didn't want this to become a flame war - or more of one that it already appears to be.

Part of my point in my previous post - which I didn't state, but should have - was in those zones past the Vortex that I pointed out as being energy intensive, there are usually some big baddies to fight...lvl 28 enemies, for example, which usually require a whole lot more application of hexes (if you're going that route) to kill. If you're low on energy due to the environmental effects, and you're playing an SS build that utilizes SS and Reckless Haste, you're in a bad place simply because you can't reapply those skills often enough due to lack of energy (I tend to put SS on one target, RH them and then SS a second target), and it takes them a lot longer to get down to 50% health (or die, for that matter) so that you can utilize SoLS.

With the recent changes, will builds have to change dramatically in order for necros to get the 'benefits' that SR can provide now? Sure, using Glyph of Lesser Energy works great for those builds that specify a secondary Ele profession; what about those builds that were once fun to play - for example: N/Me builds that used Curses and Domination? Many of those builds are energy intensive; whatever bonus was received from SR pre nerf (with 10 in SR, you gain 7 energy with SoLS, should you use that for energy support) is now a distant memory. Builds like that don't allow much room for putting points in Death or Inspiration for energy management, without sacrificing points from your primary attribute and/or lowering the amount of damage you are able to do.

Will this change have the unintended effect of streamlining builds to the point that Necros are stuck with playing low-cost, unimaginitive builds just to avoid the energy issues that you claim casters are supposed to deal with?

Perhaps what angers me most about this whole issue is that Necromancers are expected to be nothing more than *cough* 'support' characters. With this nerf, it appears we've been relegated to the back of the classroom. I find that incredibly insulting.

Bowstring Badass · Apr 06, 2007, 02:35 PM // 14:35

On a side note how does everyone like the skill changes? lol

Mysterial · Apr 06, 2007, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sihaya Syme

To all those who are bashing the necro's as 'lower mages', 'people who need to learn how to play/manage their energy', and other nice names:

I'd like to see how you would react would it have been your primary attribute.

I can tell you. I wouldn't care in the slightest. Energy Storage can't go much lower than it already is.

Macktar Wang · Apr 06, 2007, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by elsalamandra

I totally agree here and its sickening to see these snobby pvp freaks here defending this nerf that Anerf have given us in PvE and all becuase they get ubber pawned in PvP as if we cared in PvE and the worst whinner is this gods gift to pvp Lord Mendes who is full of himself he could fill the whole universe.

One thing is balancing this a complete draconian nerf which is so typical of the bored anerf employee who is doing the nerfs.

Nerf soul reaping in pvp where most of the people who play it are automated freaks of perfections and leave us pve cavemen as we were happy without disturbing the Diety of the prestigiouis PvP excelencies.

I defend this update, and I'm not in PvP (I have 1 Fame, not rank 1, 1 point total). I think it is a step in the right direction, as SR is overpowered, but not the adjustment I would have chosen. How many of you would be complaining if this adjustment were to state "Soul Reaping no longer applies to spirits and minions." ? Personally, the energy management is not a problem for me, and I know I'm not the only one who is experiencing the same thing.
Generalizing that all PvPers are "snobby freaks" is not going to win you any points.