Curse

S0larius · May 01, 2007, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Understandably, the balance of skills between PVP and PVE is very difficult, given that the requirements players have in each differ widely. This post relates directly to PVE and the advent (much applauded) of PVE only skills. As a purist tank, I strongly suggest the addition of the ability for a tank to manage aggro and barriers in team situations.

Currently, the tanking skills amount to damage mitigation, which is required, but other aspects of true tanking are lacking. Here are a couple of suggestions for those of us who are tank purists and would like the opportunity to become dedicated and useful in the function of tanking for a team of players. Note that these skills are fundamentally ineffective when soloing as they are not intended to buff farming or running builds.

Hey You! / Taunt
Tactics
5 Energy
12 second recharge

Draw or lock aggro of 1…4 foes attacking nearby target other ally within earshot to yourself.

This skill allows the tank to protect squishies but should also be used with care. Using this skill on the wrong ally would be wasteful and won’t be available when really needed. Also, with up to four foes locking aggro simultaneously, the tank will need to be ready to endure an initial spike of heavy damage. This could also be an effective form of pulling, as the tank can pull enemies to the other side of a group, further away from patrols or past terrain obstacles or passageways by allowing the foes to lock onto a teammate, and then draw their aggro to them.

Steel Brace / Hold The Line
Signet
Strength
½ second cast, 20 second recharge

For x seconds, body blocking width increased (to adjacent, nearby or area). When Steel Brace ends, you are knocked down.

This skill would be used to assist single tank groups in being effective without needing to be a full aggro circle ahead of their team. Current game mechanics require 2-3 players to successfully block one oncoming enemy, or use terrain such as corners or narrow passages. There are many single tank groups in which body blocking is essentially not possible and negates the usefulness of the tank. If the tank’s build is centered around holding the line, they become quite useless standing in the middle of the group trying to do DPS when their build isn’t geared toward that purpose. This skill could also allow two tanks to create formations such as vanguards or staggered layers.

I would ask fellow players to review/flame/sign as they see fit.

Healers Wisper · May 01, 2007, 06:21 PM // 18:21

/sign

I think both skills would help groups with single tanks alot.

Letterkills · May 01, 2007, 07:28 PM // 19:28

/sign on the taunt, the other feels rather.... rubbish

HawkofStorms · May 01, 2007, 09:02 PM // 21:02

So... PvE easy button?

/notsigned

I always thought people complaining about the "lack of an aggro system" in GW was kinda stupid. Just cause there isn't a skill or item that affects aggro doesn't mean that aggro can not be controled.
People want more intellegent mobs (just read all complaint threads about Hard Mode being too easy) yet at the same time want to be able to dumb down the mechanics of the game. Bah...

Antheus · May 01, 2007, 09:37 PM // 21:37

I thought invinci/X was a pure tank.

But I honestly don't know why this still keeps popping up. Warrior was by far the easiest class I ever played. Run in, everything sticks to you, wait for party to kill everything.

There is agro management. And it really doesn't take that much to use it.

But /notsigned.

For pulling, there's a longbow. It has been tried and true.

And the worst and most abominable gameplay that I've ever had the misfortune of partaking in GW was DoA. Bond. Enchants. Warrior runs in. Count to 5. Drop nukes. Rinse and repeat. For 5 hours.

S0larius · May 01, 2007, 10:25 PM // 22:25

I think we're confusing "tank" with "damage sponge". I think that there are plenty of builds in GW that take damage very well - too well in a lot of cases. But I also think that there is a whole aspect of tanking that is completely absent. You could argue that there is aggro management, but I don't see it. There are several ways to break aggro in the game, yet very few for gaining it. I don't know what area Antheus is referring to, but I've never had the luck of everything sticking to me simply by running in unless I was the only thing around.

You could argue that the only way to make GW fun is to make it more difficult, but I disagree. I think there are ways to make the game challenging while still broadening the class. And I certainly don't think that these two skills would make the game much easier, it would just add a new aspect.

If this was the easy button (which it isn't) you could simply turn it off by not bringing the skills

funnyman100 · May 01, 2007, 10:29 PM // 22:29

I wouldn't mind, but I don't tank

It'd be cool though

gameshoes3003 · May 01, 2007, 10:33 PM // 22:33

I personally dislike your body blocking skill.
Then you're Hey You jiggy will be extremely annoying in PvP.
If you're monk is being attacked, Hey You them and hahaha.... You get what I mean I bet.

Antheus · May 01, 2007, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by S0larius

There are several ways to break aggro in the game, yet very few for gaining it. I don't know what area Antheus is referring to, but I've never had the luck of everything sticking to me simply by running in unless I was the only thing around.

I never bothered tanking. Rush in, start attacking. Who cares if some get past you. You're not there to keep some poor squishies alive. That's their own job.

If there's opportunity, body block them.
If you can knock them down, do it.

But don't think about it in terms of pushing your agro index higher. But play the game as a warrior. Attack, be agressive, get in their face. Don't simply stand there and hope for them to perhaps pick you. And if they go attack someone else - big deal.

A very important skill a tank must have: take the initial spike. Rush in, so that first spells/attacks hit you. This will absorb enough damage that could otherwise wipe the party. After that, do whatever you want, you've done your job as a tank.

If your team can't survive agro spill, then forget getting anywhere. This isn't about 1 hit one kill casters, have teams that can take care of themselves. (hint: Wards + Aegis ) And agro loss will never be a problem anymore.

Tyria and Cantha have built in agro modifiers. As long as you rush in first, they'll stick to you like glue, especially now in normal mode.

See Obsidian Tank for DoA. Entire concept works only because agro management works.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · May 01, 2007, 11:39 PM // 23:39

/notsigned. Anyone decent or a decent team can tank very easily.

Exterminate all · May 02, 2007, 01:02 AM // 01:02

/Notsigned...tanking is pretty easy think to yourself, do you really need these skills?

Isileth · May 02, 2007, 12:02 PM // 12:02

/Notsigned

So many onlines games already have this. It makes it all far to easy. 1 char can load up on armour buffing skills, stances and a taunt. Then for the rest of the game its far to easy. Monks no longer have to worry about position, eles can move to the frontline etc

Easy button as already stated. No need for this at all.

Bankai · May 02, 2007, 01:41 PM // 13:41

I'd prefer this tank skill:

2c 5a 10r
You shoot a mortar grenade at target foe, hitting for x....x. (strength)

I'd rather have something like:

8a 10r
You take 0...12..16 less damage for the next 10 seconds. After that, the next time you attack, all adjacent foes take 1...5 damage for each time you took damage while in this skill. (Strength)

You gain damage AND tanking. Isn't that awesome? And it wouldn't work in PvP.

S0larius · May 02, 2007, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

I never bothered tanking. Rush in, start attacking. Who cares if some get past you. You're not there to keep some poor squishies alive. That's their own job.

I know a lot of squishies that would disagree. I honestly think when it comes to tanking, you guys have missed the plot. You are playing the warrior like a sin or derv, and with lower DPS I might add. I like to think I know how to tank, having logged hundreds of hours through all three games as a tank. If this is your mindset, I wouldn't want you in my group. Sorry, but this is NOT proper tanking and gives Warriors a bad name. I've only ever played with one or two great warriors in years playing GW. The rest just tee off the other players by "running in and starting to attack".

My understanding of aggro is that foes lock onto the enemies in the aggro range with a) the lowest armor, then b) the lowest health. Neither of which are the warrior class. 2 seconds of AOE resets aggro. Now, warriors don't do AOE well, they don't have as high DPS as other classes, but they do absorb damage. Great, but why not have some skills for attracting the damage dealers past the initial spike? I don't see why this is not a no-brainer IMHO.

Bankai · May 02, 2007, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Just as a side-note, rushing in and dealing damage is actually a good way to tank. If you deal a lot of damage, they will target you. The best tanks that I've seen didn't just do defense, but also made sure they did some damage.

Made In Ascalon · May 02, 2007, 02:49 PM // 14:49

This would remove all the skill from playing pve that would be needed. Focusing all the aggro on a single player just by hitting a button? All you'd need is a single prot monk to keep him alive in most areas, and you'd have almost no risk of failure.

Warriors actually CAN be true tanks if they're skillful enough. A couple of my guildies have perfected a technique with cyclone axe + triple chop which aggros all monsters that pass them and get hit to them. However, this requires skill, while your suggestion does not.

nagisaki · May 02, 2007, 04:45 PM // 16:45

I actually quite like the idea of the hold the line skill, though I think it would be much more balanced if it rendered the character immobile, or dropped their speed like dolyak does, possibly making them unable to attack as well (since they're trying to hold the line, not go spartan on your ass and lop your head off).

mikeejimbo · May 02, 2007, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by gameshoes3003

I personally dislike your body blocking skill.
Then you're Hey You jiggy will be extremely annoying in PvP.
If you're monk is being attacked, Hey You them and hahaha.... You get what I mean I bet.

It could be PvE only. They did say they were introducing a bunch more PvE-only skills in GW:EN.

(Yes, 'more.' There are already some, such as all the Lightbringer skills, and Sunspear Rebirth Signet)

darted · May 02, 2007, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

I thought invinci/X was a pure tank.

But I honestly don't know why this still keeps popping up. Warrior was by far the easiest class I ever played. Run in, everything sticks to you, wait for party to kill everything.

There is agro management. And it really doesn't take that much to use it.

But /notsigned.

For pulling, there's a longbow. It has been tried and true.

And the worst and most abominable gameplay that I've ever had the misfortune of partaking in GW was DoA. Bond. Enchants. Warrior runs in. Count to 5. Drop nukes. Rinse and repeat. For 5 hours.

My experience in DoA is that aggro lock is VERY easy to break and the damage dealt is very hard for the 'soft' casters to take.

I must admit to being curious to try this, but probably not for five hours. That is too much like the boring 55 monk build.

darted · May 02, 2007, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

I never bothered tanking. Rush in, start attacking. Who cares if some get past you. You're not there to keep some poor squishies alive. That's their own job.

If there's opportunity, body block them.
If you can knock them down, do it.

But don't think about it in terms of pushing your agro index higher. But play the game as a warrior. Attack, be agressive, get in their face. Don't simply stand there and hope for them to perhaps pick you. And if they go attack someone else - big deal.

A very important skill a tank must have: take the initial spike. Rush in, so that first spells/attacks hit you. This will absorb enough damage that could otherwise wipe the party. After that, do whatever you want, you've done your job as a tank.

If your team can't survive agro spill, then forget getting anywhere. This isn't about 1 hit one kill casters, have teams that can take care of themselves. (hint: Wards + Aegis ) And agro loss will never be a problem anymore.

Tyria and Cantha have built in agro modifiers. As long as you rush in first, they'll stick to you like glue, especially now in normal mode.

See Obsidian Tank for DoA. Entire concept works only because agro management works.

Tyria and Cantha don't work that way in hard mode. And aggro management works, but is it really that easy? A lot of things have been done to make keeping aggro more difficult. The 'smarter' mobs. Even the act of moving by the warrior can break aggro in some cases (IIRC).

Speaking as someone that is primarily playing casters (and monks) your type of warrior is what gave the earlier warrior a bad name.