Curse

the_jos · May 06, 2007, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Interesting surgestion, but not entirely workable.
A-net designed the game in such a way that healing is necessairy.
Not only that, many parts require at least one primary healer and some even more.
There are however situations where a good team could work without a primary healer, but you need to work closely together. This is even true for Hard Mode!
The 'two/three healer' requirement is mostly in PuG or specific team builds.

The GvG part is also not entirely true.
The two or three monks negate the damage of 5 or 6 players, since the other team is also running 2 or 3 healers.
And, most of the time there are some support players in the game that don't deal a lot of damage but just pressure the opposing team.

The problem however is, specially in PvP that there is something as spikes.
That's a whole team targeting a single player and unleashing damage on that player.
That requires a primary healer, or else the whole meta would be spike builds.

Removing primary healers could also cause teams to use 'turtle builds' where most of the skills would be defensive and only a few offensive. Just like a turtle has a hard shell and therefore has some limitations.
This would make PvP less attractive.

So, while the initial surgestion looks viable, it's not going to make the game more balanced nor would it improve gameplay.

Scown-dog · May 06, 2007, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mylon

I suggest that healing (as a primary role) needs to be removed from the game or severely tweaked. Monks (and to a lesser extent Ritualists) are the one class that every 8 player team requires 2 of.

I pitty the fool that has never iwayed

creelie · May 06, 2007, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Support professions are the only way this game can get away with skills causing damage above 5% of opponent's health per second. If you were to design healer-less combat with matches that lasted more than a minute it would be an exceedingly boring plink-fest.

However, it's an interesting idea, and I want to say kudos to the OP for thinking outside the box. Don't mind the haters.

Div · May 06, 2007, 03:26 PM // 15:26

This is the best idea that has come around since IWAY and VIMWAY. Let's play GvG without any healing at all, and turn it into a very big hero battles arena where people run around like idiots. Better yet, let's try to get legendary survivor in pve without any healing. What's better than having 3 of your team members quit a mission because they were taking too much damage?

Actually, let's entirely get rid of the monk and rit professions. While we're at it, get rid of skills like heal sig and troll unguent too, because it's too imbal and make the game boring. The entire blood magic line should be taken out since it gives health steal while casting stuff, and all vamp mods should be removed from the game.

That should be a mod of guild wars called guild wars: dps is king.

Bryant Again · May 06, 2007, 03:34 PM // 15:34

/Signed due to imbalance!

william1975 · May 06, 2007, 03:53 PM // 15:53

If monks were that damn good i wouldn't keep dying in pve and pvp, in fact would anyone ever die?

My main charcter, being a mesmer, shuts down monks most of the time, th eonly ones i hate are the pve awakened Acolytes, and that because they tend to alway run in two, half the time with the paragon, so every tiem you kill something it gets raised, not so difficult in normal but hellish in hard mode, mostly i love to see a monk lets me exercise my mesmer skills.

Mylon · May 06, 2007, 03:53 PM // 15:53

I'll admit the idea is not practical. GW is _built_ around people taking as much as 4000+ damage per minute and not dying (with a good healer/protection support), but that doesn't change the fact that monks are the single most powerful class in the game. A team without healers is a dead team.

There is no "use 8 damage dealers to overpressure their healers" other than spike teams, and if you examine why spike teams work it is because they bypass the monk. During a spike, a person only takes about 600 or so damage. Compared to pressure where a person might take 2000+ damage and survive. Spike teams are focused entirely on the goal of not giving the enemy monk a chance to respond. If the enemy monk wasn't such a concern, it would be easy to charge in, kill/interrupt the spikers while they're doing their thing and rendering them useless, or at least much less effective when the numbers have been whittled down to, worse case scenario, 4 vs 4.

The most important point here is that people realize that a team cannot be successful without a healer and most of the naysaying posts here are to the effect, "Then this will be deadwars where everyone's dead with -60% DP." Because, well, healing is the only way people stay alive. With a different design, that may not be such a concern, but such a design is very difficult for many people to grasp.

UBS · May 06, 2007, 04:00 PM // 16:00

The whole game would need to be redesigned, and Guild Wars wouldn't be guild wars. What an idiotic suggestion.

Thomas.knbk · May 06, 2007, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mylon

There is no "use 8 damage dealers to overpressure their healers" other than spike teams,

Your idea was stupid to begin with, but this line confirmed all my thoughts that you have no idea what you're talking about. How the hell do you think battles are won if you can't outpressure anyone? There are a lot of ways to do this that don't involve spiking.

Coloneh · May 06, 2007, 05:04 PM // 17:04

bad idea. rpgs need healing, and without monks to heal you need potions. and i really dont want potions because that make us WoW with pretty graphics.

lacasner · May 06, 2007, 05:14 PM // 17:14

No need to remove healing, just change the skills so classes can become more intertwined with each other.

mikeejimbo · May 06, 2007, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Monks continue to be the Rodney Dangerfield of classes...

No respect.

Helcaraxe · May 06, 2007, 05:21 PM // 17:21

to all the people who flamed the OP without a reason.... f-off.... if you don't like his idea at least explain why instead of just insulting him.

Anyway, on topic... I don't think it is a bad suggestion, but it would require that ALL of the game mechanics be changed. They would have to start all over again re-designing every skill and how damage works and armor and all kinds of stuff... even the little things like how "block" works. Obviously that is not going to happen, and if we just removed and/or nerfed monks in the current game... yeah, it would be death for everyone.

I agree that some places are really annoying in a fight when it comes down to how long the monks can hold out... it makes that one profession the focal point and deciding factor of hte entire match. Monks are the reason that many of the gimmick builds exist... like IWAY, designed to out damage the monks... and spike builds, designed to eliminate the monk factor...

anyway... like I said, it's not such a bad suggestion and I do think that it might help keep things a little more interesting however... with the current game mechanics it WILL NOT WORK.

The Last Anthem · May 06, 2007, 05:23 PM // 17:23

good idea but anet can't just take monks out of the game now it's too late. maybe they could consider for gw2 as they did say somewhere that some classes would be remade or taken out

also .. no one can take my monk

<3

Syntonic · May 06, 2007, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Heh, I also thought that this was a cry to change the healing line outside of a few spells in it to make it more viable. Unfortunately, what is here is far from that. Watching several gvg games and looking at what observers say, they normally comment about the monks and totally ignore the rest of the team's skills and ability. Just look at one skill on a devastating hammer build - bull's strike. On the higher rated gvg teams, you can't even move an inch before bull's strike hits you and then you are on the floor. After that, comes the long chain if you are the target and you might as well walk away from the keyboard to grab a drink since your butt will be hitting the floor for awhile (barring stances and outside support which is normally occupied/being interrupted etc.)

Judging from a few of the responses here, it's very little wonder why monk stomping exists.

viper11025 · May 06, 2007, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Maybe a healing reduction will be ok but completely calling it offs a waist.

the_jos · May 06, 2007, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

There is no "use 8 damage dealers to overpressure their healers" other than spike teams, and if you examine why spike teams work it is because they bypass the monk. During a spike, a person only takes about 600 or so damage.

2 times not true.
Many high end GvG teams use pressure builds.
Spike can mean a lot more than 600 damage in the spike.

Quote:

Compared to pressure where a person might take 2000+ damage and survive.

And the monks might have burned their energy...

Quote:

Spike teams are focused entirely on the goal of not giving the enemy monk a chance to respond.

Pre-prot, anyone?
And, it's possible to catch a spike.
Spike teams also require strategy, not only huge amounts of damage.

To me it sounds like you have never seriously played GvG or HA.
And never ever monked them.
You would have known that facing a good pressure team is harder to monk against than a spike team.

Quote:

Because, well, healing is the only way people stay alive. With a different design, that may not be such a concern, but such a design is very difficult for many people to grasp.

Changing the core design of the game creates an other game, not Guild Wars.

Zeon · May 06, 2007, 06:01 PM // 18:01

I don't think healing is stagnating the game at all. It is an essential part of the game. I have beaten many monks before in pvp. You just have to know how to work around them. Also, monks have been an essential part of GW to be taken out just like that. All that good work would go to waste.

Amon Warrior · May 06, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

At first I thougt the topic read remove healing breeze from the game and was about to sign it....

Sure! And then what would I do when u put burning on me! BBQ fest!

Naughty, naughty elementalist....

Bloodied Blade · May 06, 2007, 06:32 PM // 18:32

I must say...immensely bad idea.

The games you're referring to that never seem to "go" anywhere occur not "because 2 monks can negate AN ENTIRE TEAM," but because your entire party has each character bring their own little bag of tricks.

If incoming damage/pressure is so great that the tactics of the group along with their multiple utility skills cannot compensate adequately, the monk steps in and attempts to fix the problem.

You're making it out as though having 2-3 monks = god. Obviously, if 2-3 monks really *could* stop the damage of an entire team, pvp would not exist. You couldn't win a gvg match if that particular argument were true.

As @milan posted, removing monks from the game would effectively turn it into a slash fest...I'm not sure about you, but if gvg turned into the dragon festival, I think it would suck. It would be interesting for a while...heck, maybe even a week or a month, but it would be the undoing of guild wars.

Anyway, back to the OP- By your reasoning, "requiring a class on a team" = overpowered.

What if that class has the lowest AL in the game, a midrange mana pool, commonly gets focusfired, and is very vulnerable to interrupts and shutdown?

It isn't so overpowered anymore, is it?

What I'm trying to point out is that monks are very far from the god class that you think they are. You're portraying them like a WoW Rogue (World of Roguecraft anyone?) when they're really quite a far cry from what you think they are.

Very good monks are absolutely amazing to watch, and 2-3 of them can generally negate offense, this may be what you are witnessing...but for these 2-3 monks are another 8 players on the other team who, if they are just as skilled, can easily defeat them.

It's not the monks that make the team hard to beat, it's the other 5-6 people that you're ignoring.

If you need evidence, ask yourself why most gvg monk bars really contain very little in the way of healing.