Curse

Kool Pajamas · May 09, 2007, 09:54 PM // 21:54

One thing that could help a bit is if the exhaustion only happens when the condition is met.

bhavv · May 10, 2007, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kool Pajamas

One thing that could help a bit is if the exhaustion only happens when the condition is met.

I actually think thats a great idea.

Div · May 10, 2007, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozric

These skills don't see play for a reason, reason being that conditional. Who wants an Elite dmg skill on their bar that would only see play in the beginnings of a battle. I'd seek to lessen the req. for the conditional or remove it, but as these are high damage skills coupled with secondary effects which is quite powerful in of itself, I'd leave the exhaustion in.

You do know exhaustion wears off...just don't spam the skill and you'll be fine. For an ele's energy to drop below a typical caster's, they'd need at least 3-4 times of exhaustion along with high energy usage. Those skills (besides mind burn) are used at key moments for key snares/knockdowns. Just because they're not casting these skills doesn't mean the eles don't contribute to battle. They have other skills too.

Mind shock is good as is because it already does a good amount of damage and knockdown.

Mind freeze could use a change, but anything that removes exhaustion would make it an insane snare. Maybe up the damage or something. Making snare unconditional would also overpower it a bit.

Mind burn needs a big change. As is, the skill sucks for pressure because of exhaustion. Make it basically a copy of rodgort's damage-wise except with only 15 energy cost, higher burn duration, and no AoE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operations

Good points. Maybe we'd be better off with leaving Mind Shock the way it is, and removing the exhaustion from the other two? Something needs to be done with them, they are outclassed by far by other elites, and sometimes by non-elite skills as well.

At least here it's being discussed and considered. The crew over at GWO just flamed it down right away. I'm really starting to think that over 60% of their population is PvE wammos.

A good 50% of this population is comprised of PvE wammos too. Look at genova's comment for example: "Elementalist : unconditional energy gain whenever you feel tired, you're a living source." Just be glad a lot of the more experienced PvPers (Thom) like to post on here.

freekedoutfish · May 10, 2007, 12:27 PM // 12:27

The sheer fact that an elite spell causes exhaustion is stupid anyway. Exhaustion is the bain of an ele's existance, to put it onto an elite spell is stupid.

If they want to prevent us from spamming it, then give it a higher energy demand or recharge time. Dont add exhaustion.

Searing flames is a perfectly example of an ideal elite spell. No exhaustion, low energy and low recharge. The exact definition of an elite spell in my opinion. Almost perfect.

Thats how an elite spell should be.

/signed for removing exhaustion on elites.

Thomas.knbk · May 10, 2007, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Searing flames is a perfectly example of an ideal elite spell. No exhaustion, low energy and low recharge. The exact definition of an elite spell in my opinion. Almost perfect.

Searing Flames is the perfect example of a gimmick: One powerful effect that requires you to sacrifice the rest of your bar for energy management to be able to use it.

Kratos Angel · May 10, 2007, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Hummm oh really with SF ?? Nah I don't think so, you juste need fire attenuement (of course, any fire build needs that) and GoLE. Glowing Gaze is a little "plus" and make extra damage. So do you still think so ? Some eles had double attenuement + sometimes GoLE (against debuff) it's the same ... Well not the same they don't have a skill that pwns anything in Guild Wars

frojack · May 10, 2007, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Exhaustion is a great mechanic from a design perspective. It gives elementalists a 'gold card' in terms of 'free' energy and/or unreasonable power. You just have to pay for it later, just like any credit card albeit with the currency of time.
The Key factor is it is up to the elementalist how they choose to settle accounts. There is no parallel for this amongst the other classes and it is one of Anet's most original and ingenious ideas.

Case study: Mind Shock.

Simply amazing... The power/recharge/cost/cast-time of this skill is even beyond the quality of elite in my opinion (in terms of elementalists). It needs exhaustion as balance.

Possible alternatives to exhaustion:

1. Cost - 15 energy is still over-powered. 25 energy would be the only way to justify it.

Reasons this sucks...
- Flexibility goes straight out of the window. having a spare 25 energy is not easy to achieve.
-GoLE/Auspicious Incantation Can lighten the load but still won't equal it's current form.
GoLE seems a great way to control it. Until you realise you'll also need the second cast to even think about pressuring/dominating an opponents freedom for the foreseeable future. What Mind Shock is all about. So no spells for 8 seconds while Mind Shock recharges plus being all about one friggin' spell? Stupid...
Auspicious Incantation. Awesome e-management for 25 energy/low recharge ele spells like Deep Freeze/Lightning Hammer etc. It will literally refill your bar. At around 8 Inspiration you'll receive +40 energy per cast! (btw if you want to see pre-balanced Ether Prism, use it with this skill. Stupid energy...).
Sounds cool until to factor in AI has a 25 second recharge so you'll have killed your energy well before it recharges again. Plus it adds around 7 seconds to the recharge of Mind Shock ruining it completely.
In comparison, it's current form requires no additional skill slot to be used even more than the proposed form would ever allow. Far superior...

2. Recharge increase - To justify this the recharge would need to be something stupid like 30 seconds or more.

Reasons this sucks...
-Should be obvious. Save to say it won't ever be used again...

(Obsidian Flame get's a special mention for being another Exhaustion spell that uses the feature comparatively well. Making for a fantastic skill.)

Fair enough there are spells with exhaustion that completely boggle the mind (Energy Boon, Ride the Lightning, and more recently Mind Burn) but this doesn't stop exhaustion being a fantastic idea. It basically let's Anet create over-powered skills and still put a really (really) lose leash on it for some sort of limited control.

lacasner · May 10, 2007, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Nerf the dmg and duration, and get rid of exhaustion. Maybe make recharge or energy cost 10 energy.

Operations · May 24, 2007, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kool Pajamas

One thing that could help a bit is if the exhaustion only happens when the condition is met.

I too agree with this idea.

Winterclaw · May 24, 2007, 05:01 AM // 05:01

How about remove the exaustion and the conditional damage, but add the special effects (fire condition, slowed target, knockdown). Maybe bump them each up to 10 energy.

lightblade · May 24, 2007, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Mind Burn maybe...but all the others are fine.
Mind Freeze 90% slow is EXTREMELY painful
Mind Shock's KD is also very painful.

The thing is...both Freeze and Shock have secondary effect besides damage, but Mind Burn ONLY do damage. That is what makes it weak.

lightblade · May 24, 2007, 05:56 AM // 05:56

Exhaustion is only there to to prevent you from spamming it "mindlessly".

Winterclaw · May 24, 2007, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Mind Burn also sets the person on fire, so it does extra damage and can set you up for using spells and skills that are dependant on the target being on fire.

Buzzer · May 24, 2007, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozric

These skills don't see play for a reason, reason being that conditional. Who wants an Elite dmg skill on their bar that would only see play in the beginnings of a battle.

I wouldn't say that, seeing as the condition is easy to meet with weapon swapping.

Skye Marin · May 24, 2007, 03:59 PM // 15:59

My fixes: (changes are underlined)

Mind Burn
5/1/5
Target foe takes 15...60 fire damage. If you have more energy than target foe, that foe takes an additional 15...60 fire damage and is set on fire for 1...7 seconds. This spell causes exhaustion if you are not enchanted.

Mind Freeze
5/1/8
Target foe suffers 15...60 cold damage. If you have more energy than target foe, that foe suffers an additional 15...60 cold damage and moves 66% slower for 1...10 seconds. This spell causes exhaustion if you are not enchanted.

Mind Shock
5/1/15
Target foe suffers 10...50 lightning damage. If you have more energy than target foe, that foe suffers 10...50 additional lightning damage and is knocked down. This spell has 25% armor penetration. This spell causes exhaustion if you are not enchanted.

The main themes here are consistency. Knockdown is more powerful than Snare Hex is more powerful than Burning, in a tactical sense. Increasing the recharge times makes the skills more comparable to similar elites. The "having more energy" condition should give a clear advantage in skill power over similar elites that don't have that condition, notably Gust and Icy Shackles.

Gregslot · May 24, 2007, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Searing Flames deals as much damage as mind burn, burn as much as, has AOE and can be spammed.
Want a advice? Dont bother posting about it, i have been sayin this for over a year.

Dr Strangelove · May 24, 2007, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Mind burn really needs to have the exhaustion thing removed, and the cost increased, making it something like a single target searing flames, and thus a viable elite version of immolate.

Something like: 10/1/5. Target foe takes 15...60 fire damage. If you have more energy than target foe, that foe takes an additonal 15...60 damage and is set on fire for 1...7 seconds.

Mind Shock is ok as is. I could see maybe getting rid of the "If you have more energy" thing, but it really is a good spell.

Mind Freeze is a tough one, since if it doesn't have exhaustion, it clearly outclasses every other water elite. However, the exhaustion is also what makes it unusable. I think it's just a permanently broken skill, I don't see any great fixes without completely changing the skill.

Frojack- Completely agree, who was the 'tard who thought energy boon and ride the lightning warranted exhaustion?

Gregslot · May 24, 2007, 06:58 PM // 18:58

So change the damn skill, the hell, change the name if you have to!

frojack · May 24, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

My fixes: (changes are underlined)

Mind Freeze
5/1/8
Target foe suffers 15...60 cold damage. If you have more energy than target foe, that foe suffers an additional 15...60 cold damage and moves 66% slower for 1...10 seconds. This spell causes exhaustion if you are not enchanted.

Mind Shock
5/1/15
Target foe suffers 10...50 lightning damage. If you have more energy than target foe, that foe suffers 10...50 additional lightning damage and is knocked down. This spell has 25% armor penetration. This spell causes exhaustion if you are not enchanted.

The main themes here are consistency. Knockdown is more powerful than Snare Hex is more powerful than Burning, in a tactical sense. Increasing the recharge times makes the skills more comparable to similar elites. The "having more energy" condition should give a clear advantage in skill power over similar elites that don't have that condition, notably Gust and Icy Shackles.

Your changes to these make absolutely NO sense... A 15 second recharge kills Mind Shock. Believe it or not, Mind Shock, like I have said in the past many times, is almost friggin' perfect. Leave it alone!

Mind Freeze is only good because of the (almost) guaranteed 90%. To remove that makes this skill pointless. This could work with a 15 energy cost and a 12-15 second recharge. Maybe an additional clause to weaken it a bit more since it also has (mediocre) damage in there to. Still, water is pretty strong anyways. I bet a few of the hardcore GvG guys would shed a few rage-tears if this ever happened ^_^.