Curse

bilateralrope · Jun 02, 2007, 05:41 AM // 05:41

What I'd like to see is that in the various GW:EN elite missions, ANET designs them in such a way that all classes (using skills of mainly that class) are desired in at least one mission. The best way to do so would be to make it so the fastest way to complete the elite mission involves someone of the character class ANET wants desired for that mission.

Now the question is how to do this ?
I don't want to see missions that simply lock you out unless you have the required number of a specific class, and I'd prefer that the mission is doable without that class (you will just take longer).

Monks, Ele's and Warriors seem pretty well accounted for in our current elite missions, so they aren't too hard to design a mission for.

For rangers an elite mission where traps are really effective due to patrols would probably work (heavily trap the patrol path, then move away when patrol arrives. Patrol dies without seeing you). Or maybe an area where lots of B/P rangers are really effective. Though having single high-hp spellcasters would also work, as a choking gas ranger could keep it shut down while the rest of the party cleans up the weaker enemies.

For the other classes, I currently haven't thought of a way that could make them desired in the mission. If someone thinks of one, or another way for the classes I can think of ideas for, could they post it ?

mazey vorstagg · Jun 02, 2007, 06:20 AM // 06:20

This would be really good

well you could have a mission with loads of slow casting powerful trap things. Like flame cannons or something and the only way to interupt them is by using a mesmer/ranger or other interupting skill.

For warriors you could have a room witha load of damage dealing melee characters. Best countered with stances or something like that, perhaps weak against slashing/hack damage.

Another way to go about this would be to have some sort of bonus granted in the mission. An environmental effect/god blessing that gave quite a major boost to a particular class. For example, a dungeon of might where warriors gain +50 health and +4 strength or a dungeon of divinity where every monk heals their allies for a permenant +1 health regen.

Personally I think this would make it a more obvious/easier to understand way to making classes desiriable in the mission. I've been in plenty of groups that would never think "oh there's a lot of fire eles in this mission, we need choking gas" just as half the rangers at hell's Prec don't know why to bring winter.

Nice idea

btw, El Goonish Shiv rocks

ShadowbaneX · Jun 02, 2007, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Having just done Aurora Glade today, in where my assassin assassinated the Demagogue, there could be a situation where a fast moving, stealthy assassin could be used to take out guards before an alarm is raised.

Another possibility could be that you need to infiltrate a fortified position, a castle, fortress, whatever. The normal way of doing it would be to go the long way around and sneak in a back gate. If you happen to have an assassin along that can Shadow Step, they can make it right to the gate room, thus skipping that part.

For mesmers, you might be able to get a PvE only Illusion skill that allows you to create a disguise of the enemy (humanoids). Perhaps could be maintained. As long as you don't attack the enemy they treat you as 'friendly'.

Ritualists could perhaps summon specific spirits that would give knowledge, insight, or some other benefit to the cause.

Elementalists could have different effects based on which element they choose to wield. In the recent article it sounded like the destroyers were resistant to fire. Perhaps having different skills could make things more useful. Perhaps having fire could melt an ice wall allowing for an alternate route. Having Earth might allow for a bridge to be summoned across what would otherwise be an impassable chasm. Air could be used to power some arcane Asura device.

Rangers could sent their pets to complete tasks, or trap certain areas.

Warriors...well they just hurt things. They can't do anything special. :P

Dr Strangelove · Jun 02, 2007, 07:32 AM // 07:32

The lack of class variation in the elite areas has nothing to do with arenanet and everything to do with the average players love of cookie cutters and hatred of more complex builds. You can make the elite missions however you want, people are still going to tank+nuke because it's easy and brainless.

bilateralrope · Jun 02, 2007, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

The lack of class variation in the elite areas has nothing to do with arenanet and everything to do with the average players love of cookie cutters and hatred of more complex builds. You can make the elite missions however you want, people are still going to tank+nuke because it's easy and brainless.

But if its shown that a build using an assassin is faster than anything else people have come up with, wouldn't the cookie cutter people want to use that because it gets them the valuable items faster ?

So all we require is someone to show its possible to do the mission faster using a specific setup (you only need a few smart people to work out this setup, assuming ANET doesn't just tell us) and then tell everyone how they did it. If they don't chose to follow it, its their loss as the people that do will be earning gold faster (which seems to be all the majority of PUGs care about).

But my main problem is that some classes, like the assassin, are simply useless in the current elite missions.

Here is an idea to make the Dervish useful. An environmental effect that increases your max HP and the amount of healing you receive with the more enchantments on you. Since Dervishes enchant themselves, they would receive more benefit than warriors would, so the numbers just need to be tweaked until the dervish receives more tanking benefit than is lost by having lower armor.

vergerefosh · Jun 02, 2007, 01:01 PM // 13:01

Sounds like a good plan

howlinghobo · Jun 02, 2007, 01:30 PM // 13:30

one problem with your suggestion is that it means everybody is going to have to stick to a single cookie cutter build
a mission where rangers place traps to kill stuff easier? what if my ranger doesnt trap?
anet gave you a million ways to build your characters when they made the classes, it wouldnt be fair to force you into a stereotype for these missions

Jaythen Tyradel · Jun 02, 2007, 02:04 PM // 14:04

So..your idea for an elite mission is like the Raisu Palace mission in Factions?
I like the idea. Similar to the mission which relies on which faction hero you pick, depending on what profession you have will determine an outcome in an area/event in the mission which could help you complete the mission in various ways.

However, as howlinghobo has noted, it depends on if that person char has the skills on them or unlocked to do what is needed for that mission. Which in turn, may lead more cookie cutter builds for that mission.

Possible way to overcome this? Profession gets a PVE only skill that they can use only in that mission that allows them to perform a skill or activate an event.

HawkofStorms · Jun 02, 2007, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

The lack of class variation in the elite areas has nothing to do with arenanet and everything to do with the average players love of cookie cutters and hatred of more complex builds. You can make the elite missions however you want, people are still going to tank+nuke because it's easy and brainless.

QFT.

No matter how well you make a mission that needs all 10 classes, you'll still have triple echo nuking MS eles and W/Mos yelling to kick the sin and the mesmer.

Also, @ the OP, what elite missions have you been playing? Rangers ALWAYS get love in elite areas already.

Rod Adams · Jun 02, 2007, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Well, in DoA, it seems like the only team design that can actually clear several of the areas in one sitting is:

1 Wa/El ObsFlesh Tank
3 El/Mo SF+MS Nukers
3 Mo/xx Heal/Prot/Bonders
1 Ne/Ra BiP + support spirits.

Why is this build so popular? because it's fast. A trapping team in Veil can definitely get the job done... but it's slow going, and frankly people start to make mistakes 4-5hrs into a mission...

So what design features favor the Holy Trinity idea?
- Insane amounts of damage of all kinds, which is basically impossible to mitigate on a team wide basis. Thus, the need of a central tank to absorb all the damage. Also, thus, the need for 2-3 protectors to super buff the tank.
- Large packs of monsters with high resistances, which have a bad habit of replicating when they are about to die. Given the volume of monsters, you have to have AoE damage if you want to finish the battle sometime today. The resistances + Call to Torment mean you need either fast spike damage, or on the spot interrupts. To keep aggro on the tank, the attacks need to be at range. No other class can come close to meeting this demand than the ele. And sadly, even ele's get limited to the Fire line for optimal results.

So now we've already got a Tank, several Healers, and several Nukers. Add in a support char like a BiP to keep the Healers and Nukers (and even the Tank sometimes) filled with energy.... and there's no room left for anything else.

Going with some other team build can work, and work well... but they tend to take longer or are not as reliable. Many of the existing Elite areas are frigging huge and long... so the speed difference between 2 hrs with a Holy Trinity team, vs 5-6hrs with some other team.... and you see why many people don't bother recruiting for other teams.

JeniM · Jun 02, 2007, 11:29 PM // 23:29

/signed SO MUCH
I hate going through game then finding only X/Y can solo farm this area and standing in GoA watching all the LOOKING FOR SF ELE and my char being useless

bilateralrope · Jun 02, 2007, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by howlinghobo

one problem with your suggestion is that it means everybody is going to have to stick to a single cookie cutter build
a mission where rangers place traps to kill stuff easier? what if my ranger doesnt trap?
anet gave you a million ways to build your characters when they made the classes, it wouldnt be fair to force you into a stereotype for these missions

Look at the current elite missions, aren't they already limited to a few cookie cutter builds ?

Its just that their cookie cutter builds don't use certain classes.

The trapping was just an example, but if your ranger can't handle the cookie cutter build you could either go in with friends on another build, more over to another elite mission or not do them at all. But why wouldn't your ranger be able to trap ?

I'm not asking to make the missions impossible if they don't take the specific class, just that taking the class lets you get the mission done faster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

No matter how well you make a mission that needs all 10 classes, you'll still have triple echo nuking MS eles and W/Mos yelling to kick the sin and the mesmer.

I'm not asking for a single mission to require all the classes. Just that each class is required by at least one of the missions.

Now if you know that taking an assassin makes the mission much faster/easier and you have someone in your party still wanting them kicked, who would you kick ?

Quote:

Also, @ the OP, what elite missions have you been playing? Rangers ALWAYS get love in elite areas already.

I don't play rangers much and I was tired at the time, so I made a small mistake which was then corrected.

A thought comes to mind here. If the environmental effect in an area prevented AOE by making no spells or attacks able to effect multiple targets, what would the cookie cutter build be then ?

What if instead of stopping the damage, the caster got belted for each additional target they effect ?

I'm pretty sure doing those would kill off AOE users in that area. So what cookie cutter build would show up there instead ?

Slim · Jun 03, 2007, 03:22 AM // 03:22

me playing a ranger as my main am not always needed in the DoA quests or missions like the deep but to be able to be needed in EotN would be great

Zexion · Jun 03, 2007, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by bilateralrope

Look at the current elite missions, aren't they already limited to a few cookie cutter builds ?

Its just that their cookie cutter builds don't use certain classes.

The trapping was just an example, but if your ranger can't handle the cookie cutter build you could either go in with friends on another build, more over to another elite mission or not do them at all. But why wouldn't your ranger be able to trap ?

I'm not asking to make the missions impossible if they don't take the specific class, just that taking the class lets you get the mission done faster.

I'm not asking for a single mission to require all the classes. Just that each class is required by at least one of the missions.

Now if you know that taking an assassin makes the mission much faster/easier and you have someone in your party still wanting them kicked, who would you kick ?

I don't play rangers much and I was tired at the time, so I made a small mistake which was then corrected.

A thought comes to mind here. If the environmental effect in an area prevented AOE by making no spells or attacks able to effect multiple targets, what would the cookie cutter build be then ?

What if instead of stopping the damage, the caster got belted for each additional target they effect ?

I'm pretty sure doing those would kill off AOE users in that area. So what cookie cutter build would show up there instead ?

Look at the Ebony Citadel of Mallyx.

Air spiker eles xD

_Zexion

Dr Strangelove · Jun 03, 2007, 05:55 AM // 05:55

We need examples of this? I cleared city, veil, and gloom in one sitting with the following build:

1 E/me SF ele
1 Rt/R Splinter barrager
2 W/X damage dealing warriors (One had quivering blade as elite, the other had triple chop)
1 N/mo bipper (Not 1hp)
1 R/mo Trapper/spirit spammer
1 Mo/Me bonder
1 Mo/Me Healer's boon

We had trouble in city while we were still settling how to work things, but it's the smoothest and fastest group I've ever run through gloom and veil.

mazey vorstagg · Jun 03, 2007, 07:45 AM // 07:45

What if, instead of all this, some elite missions were like Raisu Palace.

So, through the mission there are 10 critical points with big points as well as much more. What happens is that whenever you reach one of these critical points if you have the required profession in your party you can skip a fight or get a bonus.

People would also want a mixed team for this so they get to use as many critical points as they can (max is 8 obviously). Therefore instead of taking two warriors and two monks they might prefer 1 warrior, 1 dervish, one monk and 1 rit. See what I mean?

Every time i lag · Jun 03, 2007, 09:32 AM // 09:32

/signed
ranger cant do Doa quests =/

HawkofStorms · Jun 03, 2007, 04:46 PM // 16:46

That anti aoe damage idea is kinda interesting bilateral. Kinda like a perminent modified SS cast on your party or something. Unfortunately, there is enough indirrect ways to cause AoE damage that I doubt this will work (SV/AV with Famine for instance). I agree that it would destroy current cookie cutter builds. Doesn't mean that new ones won't take its place.

Winterclaw · Jun 03, 2007, 06:54 PM // 18:54

I think that this is a fairly good idea, however I'd like to add the chevet that they design it so that you shouldn't need much more than two of whatever class so the other classes can get groups.

I'd also like to see them design missions where classes that normally have one overused skill line would be forced to try something else. For example, one mission could have a lot of enemies that deal holy damage or can steal undead from the control of a PC. Another mission might have enemies that might have extra al vs fire or lightning and kite alot so an el would prefer to go hydromancer for that mission.

OhCrapLions · Jun 03, 2007, 07:08 PM // 19:08

What they could do is make it desirable for every class to participate. Like enemies classes take extra dmg or hexes on it last longer when its attacked by a certain ally class. Or enchantments last longer or healing heals more when done around a certain enemy class when cast by a certain ally class.

This would make farming undesirable. NOT MEANINGLESS or USELESS, undesirable.