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Sep 22, 2006, 11:58 AM // 11:58
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#81 | |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Quote:
This also is pretty close to the ABs we have now; which IMO, is really sad due to the lack of staying power over a "point of interest". If the game would actually allow for some strategy* and skirmishes lasted for several minutes on one point, I would actually enjoy such a system. This said, I can see in my mind how the game would work, but like I said, it would require a major overhaul to how the combat works in the game. *By strategy I am refering to actual game strategy, not just knowing how to build a good character and smash buttons in the right order at the right time. I mean, flanking bonuses, enviromental bonuses (such as attacking from hill tops, from behind cover, ambushes, etc), and more. GW has none of these things but would be sweet if it did. So, sweet idea; which then adds the above GW not haves as more to add to improve PvE. 
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Sep 22, 2006, 10:19 PM // 22:19
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#82 |
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Academy Page
Join Date: Jul 2006
Guild: War Friends [WF]
Profession: W/
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flanking bonuses, +2on1 bonuses/penalties would add to strategy in pvp aswell
i mean if u r attacking a monk u cannot really defend urself from the warrios smashing u head in with a hammer from behind. or 2 on 1 situation using a shield would be hard so u could use the shield armor for defence against ur target but would only get ½ aror bonus against the other dude whacking u so more bonuses / penalties due to targettig or numbers might be part of the challenge, also some peanlties to casting if ur head is bing smashed in with a hammer it does affect ur ability to remember the complicate rituals needed to cast the spell, and to balance this ud need some protective spells with fast castig times, or spells that afect ur concentration... running away ofcource does affect ur ability to defend urself. i mean if ur runing away from someone, u hardly have enough time to evade. also by realism, the armors in medieval times generally were weaker in the back due to weight issues, it was also presumed that u need more defence when facing ur opponent, and if the cowards who flee get killed, all the better so a good ol' backstab for assassins? tho im not sure but i think u get more criticals when attacking from the back? so some of this is already implemented neway... not only are monsters copies of the am fah mob, but 1 area generally has 20 mobs of monster with exactly the same build... sure 1 mob has 2 warriors an 3 rangers while the next has 3 warriors an 2 rangers but still. id leke to see more variety as in the level of mobs... best territories are conquered by the strongst mob so an important intersection would have tougher opponents, while in between them u might have some easyer battles. also the groups size is pretty much always 8 or six or whatever is the max size of the party... how about a loner who has been abandoned by his tribe, or a smaller scout party with running skills patrolling around larger camp area with more heavy firepower. diversity not only in type of mobs as in am fah would be diferent from mantis but mantis would be different from mantis in the same area aswell. so as to closing in on a camp area ud have to use a different strategy, more cautious approach for example. Last edited by Undivine; Sep 23, 2006 at 05:25 AM // 05:25.. Reason: Double post |
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Sep 22, 2006, 11:00 PM // 23:00
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#83 | |
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Kali
Profession: W/E
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Quote:
I think it is a bit hard to apply, as there are alot of movements and turning in the game, so it was never really that much of use in strategically. but I guess it could add some back stabing type of skill to enforce it better. Another possiblity might be to incorperate the targeting. I always see targeting a target as if you are looking at it. This mean the other people/creature which you are not paying attension could do more damage to you (as you are harder to dodge their strikes), and visa versa. Not sure if want to do it passively, where enemy that you are not targeting do more damage to you, but could see few new skills that have the target as condition (more % to evade from targeted foe, or do more damage to the foe if they are not targeting you at the moment, etc) Might have it in a stealthing class like a theif. Well, its a bit off tangent, but yeah, more usage of backattack would be good to build in more strategy into PvE encounters. |
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Sep 23, 2006, 04:14 AM // 04:14
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#84 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Jan 2006
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My favorite class in rpgs has always been a rogue. GW's lack of a real rogue has always been a bit of a bummer to me. The assassin was as close as I've gotten and, well, not real close on that anyway.
The addition of posisitional damage would be great. It was done in EQ years back. As a rogue, you simply got behind the target and hit the backstab skill and "pop!" 1000's of damag in one hit. Problem here in GW for something like that is that, again, the fights are over far too fast. So even setting a character into position is not really possible... thus very little strategy can be used post character build. As a side note and on topic with this thread; for those playing the Nightfall event. It seems some of the things mentioned here have been, or were already put in. One of my biggest complaints was the mobs acting like PvP groups, or balanced groups of bugs. So far in Nightfall, I have just barely come across a type of mob that brought a healer. They are humanoid in nature so it makes since for them to know what a healer is. All creatures and bugs, and (pretty cool looking) plants seem to be acting like what they are and not like they just spent an hour LFGing in a town. Wonderful! |
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Sep 23, 2006, 07:00 PM // 19:00
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#85 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Cavalon
Guild: The Last Pirates (SaVY)
Profession: N/
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PvE can become harder in many ways.
1. Give enemies more skills to their skill bar, I look at what skills they use and it seems to be only half of the amount of skills we can use so if it is increased to 8 skills rather than 4 they may pose more of a challenge. 2. Enemies should make more mixed group structures. More balanced groups may increase the challenge. Example: Afflicted groups seem to be pretty well balanced, having an assortment of every kind of characters. They should follow my first suggestion in order to make them stronger. Bad Example: Things like right outside of Maatu Keep are not balanced enough. They lack the diversity of the afflicted groups. 3. More enemies with higher healths isn't the answer, so stop with the increasing of size and health and start with balancing more. 4. I feel that every skill in the game should be on at least one enemy in PvE. Skills like ignorance and arcane thevary are not used by creatures in PvE. 5. Make it somewhat like how actuall people play, like groups with very great monks and good pressure, put the thoughts that people use to make builds for GvG into what you want a enemy group to become. I am still waiting for a battle against an enemy mob that takes more than 5 minutes. Of course they wont be anywhere near player capabilities but giving them similar builds may increase their toughness. Along with this give enemies a smaller energy pool, with tougher groups things like E-denial may become useful, yet E-denial on an enemy with 80 energy it ridiculous. 6. Have different behaviors for enemy groups. Some can patrol, some can guard specific positions, but dont have them necessarily chase down a character to the portal because they aggroed a little group. I hate having to run and run and run and the group is still chasing me. And then when I get close to a dead ally and still not in their aggro range they begin chasing again. I don't see the point of that. 7. Have weather affects that affect both players and enemies. 8. A more interractive environment, some plants that catch fire if a fire skill is used close by and damages enemies and allies. Corpses that don't dissappear. Cliffs that you can fall off of. Places where you can drown. Enviornmental traps, land giving way, branch falling from a tree things like that. 9. Enemies that don't attack until attacked. 10. Groups that have different styles of fighting, aggressive groups which will chase you down like most groups do now, defensive groups which will stay in a selecte area and defend it from attackers but won't chase. Passive groups which only attack when provoked. 11. More enemy group interractions. Example: Minotuar and centuar in northern shiverpeaks end up fighting each other a lot. Another example is stone summit and mursaat. |
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Sep 25, 2006, 03:15 AM // 03:15
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#86 | ||
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Well, this thread has some excellent suggestions, (I especially like the idea of different "personalities" for mobs, and giving them the ability to evaluate targets better and not just be locked in aggro; and the idea of using the current target to affect skills). I would like to propose another thing that could make the game more interesting. Not necessarily harder, but maybe more challenging: Deeper player/NPC interaction.
When I first read about heroes coming in Nightfall, I saw a great opportinity to greatly improve the quality of the GW PvE experience by letting these NPCs interact with players in a more meaningful way. Baldur's Gate is what immediately sprung to mind. Of course, this isn't a single-player game, so you couldn't have just one player being the center of attentions. But then again, the fact that there might be more than one player in a party could make the interaction even better. What if a hero empathizes with one of the characters (a warrior), but despises the other (a mesmer)? Maybe he would go out of his way to protect the warrior in combat, but not pay much heed to the mes (or the other way around). This would, of course, be spiced up by a lot of dialogue, and amplified or mitigated by player choices taken along the way. So, I could, for instance develop Koss - through conversation and in-game events - in such a way that he a) hates elementalists with a passion. He'll always charge for the eles first, and might even defy orders to attack the nearest ele if not kept in check every once in a while. b) is afraid of bugs. he'll be reluctant to engage them, and might use too many defensive skills in such a fight, or even resort to a secondary profession (using a bow or spells) for the duration of the combat c) has a romance with Tahlkora: He will defend her at any cost if she goes low on health. d) hate centaurs, and will not group with abother hero of that race. These are just a couple suggestions off the top of my mind, and I'm sure the a-net team could think of better ways to deal with this. The suggestions also mean that you forfeit some of the control over the character in exchange for extra depth of interaction (which I think it's appropriate, in a way: those are heroes, they are supposed to be as important as yourself to the story, they accept your leadership but are not lowly henchmen that must yield to your every command. Interestingly, anet seems to have the exact opposite logic in mind). This could be offset by simply giving them positive effects to balance out the possible inconvenience of their behavior, such as extra resistance to poison, bonus damage against a certain creature, etc. OR, all these changes could be ignored, and interaction could be kept on a purely textual level, where the heroes would talk to the players, revealing some of their story, possibly opening up new quests as they leveled up alongside the party and offering advice during missions and exploration (in fact, I seem to recall some hero giving me advice about the creatures of a certain area in the preview event) and it's nice to see some of the things suggested here have appeared on the nightfall preview, such as: Quote:
Quote:
There is also improved (if only slightly) environmental puzzles, monsters with a personality (even if that personality means attacking in a huge swarm - see skale mobs) and a profession-shifting boss... we can only hope there will be huge bosses with multiple target areas to destroy  As for double-interrupt, kuunavang has that already, right? |
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Sep 25, 2006, 05:19 AM // 05:19
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#87 |
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Kali
Profession: W/E
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All good points, Hand of Death. I like 8 and 9 alot.
One thing I found lacking is there are not much room for much type of macro strategy, beside not aggro more than one group of mob, and target the monk first (there are alot of micro strategy on the skill combo level). For example, usually one don't do things like having the Warrior Hold the front line from on coming attack of mob to protect their ranks, as the enemy usually will by pass it with ease. There's not much of way to "hold" your enemy. (actually, I think there is, but a bit diffcult to do) ----------------------------------------- Great suggestion too Solar_Takfar. Yeah, more of those Hero NPC interaction would be great. But one thing I hope it will not lead is like the henchi's speech dialog... which not many people read. They need to be made more appearent. ---------------------------------------- Anyhow, playing Nightfall make me enjoy the passive monster again. I hope to see more of those, even in the high level areas. Adding more to this, is that I want to see MOB Enviroment Interaction AI. I just don't like why the field is always fill with red dots, and all of them out to get you, but are always friendly with one another. I want to see differnt type of monster fight another... like the you could see the Corsair hunting part hunting down irontooth drake, or higher level skales feeding on ther junior termits, and such. It create more enviromental interaction, and make them more believible, as part of the work, and not simply place there to be in your way. You can also work it into a strategy too, like waiting for two group to come agrassive with one another first befor jumping in to the fight, or lead one to another of their hated enemies. (Which I used to do in the early betas in the riverside mission... oh, the good times..) Of couse, this will not apply to all mobs, and most mob type will still on good term with one another. Another idea along that line is where you can Make Friend with the mob on map. maybe have some item that you could use, like throw the Irontooth drake a Skale fin, it will not attack you.. and if you lead more skale to it, it will hunger for its meat... something like that. Or you could make friend with all of that mob's faction, (with doing some quest or so), like have a quest where you can help retreave some Harpies egg, and when complete, all the Harpies on that map will be passive with you... things like that. (oh, and Bioshock, a upcoming fps, is using such AI interaction and various approch to the enemy encounters, as one of their main game features as well) |
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Sep 25, 2006, 05:55 AM // 05:55
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#88 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Behind you with a knife
Guild: Celebrity Gangsters [FamE]
Profession: Me/
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Create labyrinths and giant mazes that could possibly split the group up and make the players search their surroundings for resources to get their way out with mission specific skills aquired along the way much like Celestial skills.
Here's a scenario: You're in a team of 4 and from an earlier quest you aquired several skills which you were told you'd need for future quests and missions. These go in the common skills area much like a Res Sig or Cap Sig (since cap sigs are exclusively PVE, so are these, and like Cap Sigs may also be temporary with no combat effect.) Your team comes to a darkly lit cave and since you need combat skills and non combat skills to get through you've managed them so that you and your team have a good balance and aren't overlapping in the skills. You enter and it is pitch black. One of your team mates has one of her needed skills, and it's an inherent signet (You don't have to use it to come into effect) named Fiery Torch which lights up a large area around you to show where you're going. But then up ahead after a few fights your party is forced to seperate into 2 teams of 2 because the floor inside the next hallway is like a see-saw. If one person steps on one side without another person on the other side, they'll fall off into the hole. Once you get to the end of the hall you find a room with various potions and a work bench with a book on it. You then proceed through, killing everything on your way and get to a boss which completely pwns your team. Next time through youd do all of that, except you stop at the work bench and stop to read the book. You read through the book and it has 4 recipies for different things, and not all the ingredients are there. One of the ingredients is Vampire Blood, so one of your members with the Signet of Containment uses it on a vampire outside and brings it back and empties it into a cauldron. After getting the ingredients you then need to heat up the stove, so you can take out Firey Torch and heat up the cauldron. After all 4 are made quite quickly you all drink one, someone turns on fire, one on poison, one bleeding, the other gets some super effect, and you then have to remember what potion it was, go out and get enough for 3 more sets, and get the whole team to drink it, then go out and slay this beast with your powered up selves to kill it. of course that's just something I made up really quickly, it probably would be much cooler if you saw what I'm thinking in my mind of having common skills and stuff and going down corridors in a cave with inscriptions along the wall, and if you come back later on you can decode them and use a special skill which could allow you to access hidden things to complete the mission's bonus like in prophecies... not some race to beat the clock like factions ugh. |
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Sep 25, 2006, 01:09 PM // 13:09
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#89 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Jan 2006
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We do not need balanced groups in PvE with the mobs 100% of the time. It makes it dull beyond belief and creates a system of fighting the same foes in different "skins" over and over (like Factions). This is PvE, not GvG or PvP. The AI can only do so well with it's skills. It can be scripted to execute skills in a paticular order, but it can not adapt to ever changing player "chaos". More so right now, the AI just seems to randomly execute whichever skills are ready.
Giving the mobs more player skills just makes the mobs more like players; however give them unique skills to what they are, such as the above mentioned Corsairs. They were unique and fun to fight against. They were "human" so we expected them to have healers and casters with them. Further in the preview, we started to see bugs with semi-balanced groups start to pop up. They became more and more of the same thing in different skins; and knowing how to take out one group meant knowing how to clear the entire zone. A balanced group of maobs is also no challenge at all. You see a healer, take it down and the rest of the foes fall fast as they have no unique qualities to keep themselves going. The PvE mobs should be self reliant and difficult to take down per mob, not per group. Again, using bugs as an example: Bugs should know how to defend themselves and attack without the need to sit in a town and "lfg" to find themselves a healer. Therefore, they should act like bugs and not stand back and heal each other, yet swarm over the player(s) and cause some sort of panic. With a big enough swarm, the players would be forced to constantly evaluate the situation. Bugs, insects and the like use numbers to overcome foes and prey, not balanced groups. This also comes down too, once again, creating each foe to be a challenge on it's own rather than a challenge in numbers. If each bug mentioned above was tough and self reliant, then having ten or more swarm the players (as bugs would do) there is the challenge. Once you know how to beat them, can you do it every time? Probably, but what happens when all those bugs randomly target your casters or monks? If we want balanced groups we have the option of GvG and PvP. Lets keep those there. If we want interesting foes with unique skills and abilities that players cant match yet must learn to over come, let's start putting those into PvE more. Nightfall had a lot of the mentioned things here, but also some lame toss backs towards Factions balanced groups as we got further in. I became very disapointed as I ventured further into my favorite zone of the preview ("The Bog" - awesome area!). More and more of the "bugs" started acting like the harpies, or humanoid creatures. Bleh. At least there is still time to adjust that and fix it... hope they intend to read this thread and do so. Thought: Imagine those Mad... bugs (however you spell their name) having a unique ability to create a noxious gas around them that acts like choking gas, yet also heals them like trolls and is a small AoE centered around them. Instead of a cast time, it's immediate, can't be interupted and is a "natural defence" of theirs. We now have a self reliant threat and can ditch the "healer" bug so the insect is now an insect instead of a PvP AI in a bug suit. This would create a situation where either the players allow the bugs to sit in the "gas" and heals constantly, while casting and fighting within a "choking gas" field, or pulling the bugs out of the field and risking the aggro of other foes.These bugs are now a greater threat and a challenge in their own rite without the need for acting like humanoid or human AI... or just another PvP AI group in a different skin. |
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Sep 25, 2006, 04:06 PM // 16:06
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#90 | |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Quote:
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Sep 25, 2006, 04:15 PM // 16:15
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#91 | |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Quote:
Close note: I'm really enjoying that idea of flamable gas. Put something like that in an area or attached to a mob so any kind of fire elemental attack or lightning would set it off. That could be fun. Completely work aroundable as well, you would just have to prepare yourself for it, therefore plan ahead and react and work with the game. Could even place something like this in my new favorite zone "The Bog" in Nightfall. Swamp gasses that are flammable or while you are in it, cases a Daze effect; much like those shrooms in Echovald that cause you to miss more often. I liked that, made for a cool enviroment. |
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Sep 25, 2006, 05:13 PM // 17:13
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#92 |
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Kali
Profession: W/E
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On one of the quest in playing Nightfall event, there are those Tomb Phantoms. They are great, becuase physical damage do very little to them, thus have to relie on magical means to destory them. I thought they are great! Since we can not change our skills in mid-map, I guess the strategy (with more various and "special effect" monsters) would come from giving some party member more advantage, while making other not as useful in that sitiuation.
Could have things like an Oblistic that reduce all effect of magic in surround area, or make fire elementals that gain hp on every fire damage, but extra weak to water damage... things like that. (another thing I want to add is a "challenge quest" or a "Location quest".. but since don't have much time right now, will write more on it in another post) Last edited by actionjack; Sep 25, 2006 at 05:26 PM // 17:26.. |
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Sep 25, 2006, 05:48 PM // 17:48
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#93 | |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Quote:
Another option would be to have the gas be harmful to players (ie. giving energy degen and/or making warriors miss the swings); to counter that, you'd have to use fire every 30 seconds or so, neutralizing the gas for that period but making all players within burn for a few seconds while the neutralization process took place. |
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Sep 25, 2006, 06:00 PM // 18:00
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#94 | |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Quote:
I wish there was a way to forward this to a Dev so we know they are seeing this. So many good ideas here that seem really needed, mostly to put some challenge into the PvE side instead of the lean towards lame balanced groups that the players with half a brain can roll over. |
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Sep 25, 2006, 07:33 PM // 19:33
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#95 | ||
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Hmmm the "corsair net" gave me another idea... what about another monster skill called "bolas" (look it up if you don't know what those are)
Quote:
and what about Quote:
This could actually be made into a mesmer skill (illusion - elite hex spell (touch), 50% fail with ill. 7 or less, duration 1...4, 1s cast, 10e, 30s recharge) rather than a monster-only skill. Surely dervish, elementalist, assassin and warrior secondaries would love to have this. There's almost infinite potential for expansion of monster skill effects when you think that they don't have to be "balanced" for PvP. A-net has already started walking that road, let's hope they continue on their way to make PvE battles even more varied and fun. Last edited by Solar_Takfar; Sep 25, 2006 at 07:47 PM // 19:47.. |
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Sep 25, 2006, 11:52 PM // 23:52
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#96 |
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Academy Page
Join Date: Jul 2006
Guild: War Friends [WF]
Profession: W/
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that stinking cloud idea sounds nice... jst thought of another form of it...
somekindof acid version that softens ur armor giving not only the monster ap attacks but for any ranger type of critters further aswell a hex if u wil, when ur in the cloud ur armor is penetrated for 10% also somekindof small hp degen, say -2 an perhaps minor chance to miss, not too much tho, something like 10% chance (since ur eyes sting). i despise skills that render a char completely useless like blindness, the monster naturally wouldnt suffer from its acid since its armor is made of chitin.(or other monsters with chitinous armor, if it has natural enemies) ofcource most acids are flammable aswell, especially those that are in gas form tho id see this kind of skills as highly defensive that would not be used unless someone is adjacent to them. (not a real challenge if u could jst roast the bug with a secondary ranger using ignite arrows) and another bug idea.. how about a mostly passive high lvl type of critter... a stinger queen insectoid (necro kindof) that goes around laying eggs in corpses (since corpses disappear somewhat quickly this wouldnt be too overpowered) and given say 1 minute incubation time the corpse would give birth to a full 8 monster party which in turn would be aggressive since little bugs need food to grow these bugs as being newborn would be something like lvl 1 but with "poisonous bite" and perhaps a spammable "painful sting" that would serve as interruption skill, and ofcource after a full battle of 8 monsters one of the queens wondering into the scene would be a dread cuz 8*8 would amount to alot of tiny critters that die with a single swap but the sheer numbers would be the challenge... so once u c these queens u dont get agro from them but u would have to think weather to kill it (for a 1 tuff opponent) or kill alot of those smaller bugs later (for numerous low lvl opponents) or jst use putrid explosion to destroy the corpses before they turn into armies |
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Sep 26, 2006, 12:20 AM // 00:20
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#97 |
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Kali
Profession: W/E
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I like the fume idea too.
For the acid fume, how about make it go away if they receive water damage (wash it away), instead of burning the acid away? |
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Sep 26, 2006, 03:17 PM // 15:17
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#98 |
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Academy Page
Join Date: Jul 2006
Guild: War Friends [WF]
Profession: W/
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s for difference it would be nice...
instead of burning u it would be poisonous instead when mixed with water? (only if u were at the area while this was activated) kindof ripoff from stinking cloud but still variation ah... jst came to mind.. this is a bit late at the discussion aswell... improvement on the mosnter ai so they would only use skills that may have some effect on them... to name 1, yetis use pet attacks happily after their pet is dead tho this does raise a smile on my face Last edited by Undivine; Sep 27, 2006 at 03:52 AM // 03:52.. Reason: Double post |
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Sep 26, 2006, 04:55 PM // 16:55
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#99 | |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Quote:
The AI needs to understand or at least be scripted to understand several things: That 0-5 damage is not really a threat and can probably ignore that target or withstand an AoE of that magnitude. That using a skill like Life Drain on a foe with 10 health is a waste of energy and time. As said above, a dead pet means your pet skills do not work. Added to that, animals and bugs should not have to cast or prep their abilities. Spiders for example should always have a poisonous bite or sting. Not after they've used the human skill Apply Poison. That's silly. Trolls should have "Troll's Ungent" up at all times, not after they've used the skill... further examples can go throughout GW. These types of improvements are not really possible unless Anet begins to pull away from it's seemingly odd reliance on making battles PvPish; ie, balanced groups or my biggest pet peeve, bugs and "natural creatures (animals)" with healers... I find that so dumb it's laughable. Each of these types of mobs should be self reliant and not dependant on some silly bug or animal that understands spells... or, they move towards making some skills on mobs natural, in that they don't need to activate or use the skill for it to work. It just does naturally and all the time. I don't think Anet will stop this untill they understand further that GW PvP is not exactly fun or entertaining to everyone... but I'm repeating myself here, so I'll stop rambling. |
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Sep 26, 2006, 07:29 PM // 19:29
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#100 | |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Quote:
now... the tendency to have every bug group as a totally balanced group, that's where I think they overstepped. I don't want every group of mobs to have two warriors, two monks, an ele and a mesmer, because then playing against them will always be the same. Rather, each type of monster could have a couple types of professions they take on (except humans; balanced groups, with some variation, would be OK then). Prophecies does that well (ie. groups of stone elementals and stone furies; zombies warlocks, skeleton rangers and ghouls; grawl shamans and ulodytes), Mmaking the challenge more varied and fun. as for healer bugs knowing spells, just imagine it's some kind of natural power, or maybe just some power handed over by the gods, instead of hard-to-understand, long-studied witchcraft, which is what humans get. |
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