Curse

HawkofStorms · Jul 12, 2007, 08:18 PM // 20:18

All skills that cause daze have a high energy cost because the condition is so powerful, see temple strike.

And you are right EvilSod, some people just are too stuborn to learn.

Divine Freak · Jul 12, 2007, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Well, as it stands Concussion Shot is a useless skill that I will never use and I will never place on a hero. It costs too much energy and it does not appear on a single vetted build that I have observed to date. Nor have I ever seen it used in any constructive capacity by any successful ranger. It is therefore a waste of space and programming effort.
-
So, again PvP is supposed to dictate the PvE game for the rest of us like it does in everything else.

.....

Concussion Shot is downright devestating on a ranger hero in PvE. I run it on all my ranger heroes in PvE because the long daze means they don't need to run a whole bar full of interrupts. And the daze will last for the full duration more often than not because few mobs have condition removal/transfer skills. The high cost is because it is a non-elite skill, and if the daze isn't removed then you have one totally shut down spellcaster. Also, I don't really see how PvP dictates anything for this skill...

Fitz Rinley · Jul 12, 2007, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

quoted for truth...their are plenty of combos out their that are a good use of concussion shot. This one is probobly the most viable IMO.

Just because a skill is not being used in the current meta, does not mean it needs to be fixed.

If it was worth using it would be in use. It is not worth using so it is not in use.

Evilsod · Jul 13, 2007, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

If it was worth using it would be in use. It is not worth using so it is not in use.

Avatar of Lyssa is worth using, nobody uses that in PvP.
Meteor Shower is worth using, nobody uses that in PvP.

Just because its not used in PvP doesn't mean it sucks... people use Broadhead Arrow in PvP because Prot monks are very hard to interrupt.

This isn't Crude Swing or Power Shot... its an interrupt that inflicts the most powerful anti-cast condition in the game. Its very cost effective and there are many ways to cover the cost.

kazjun · Jul 13, 2007, 12:33 AM // 00:33

/not signed

Make this spammable and every ranger would stick this on a BA build so they could perma shutdown every caster and stick -10 degen on everyone to boot.

Also, you say you use this in pve? Well, aside from the fact that I've yet to see anywhere you'd really need to daze anyone, you don't need to spam this. Just go /Me and take epidemic. Just find a concentration of casters, daze the caster you least care about dazing, then epidemic it to spread it to all his buddies. Easy.

Rusty Deth · Jul 13, 2007, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Yeah CS has a high energy cost...but it's worth every bit of it. Specially when I use it in pvp along with a Silencing Bow String...oh yeah, I go there.

I try to never leave without it and I run my ranger with 13 expertise and a 25 energy pool. Course most of the time in PvE I use a Zealous Bow String as energy managment.

I'm not spamming skills left and right, part of being a ranger is being patient and knowing just when to bring the big guns out.

/unsigned

Master Ketsu · Jul 13, 2007, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

If it was worth using it would be in use. It is not worth using so it is not in use.

How long did the potential for rit spike to pwn exist before it was made?

HawkofStorms · Jul 13, 2007, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

If it was worth using it would be in use. It is not worth using so it is not in use.

You REALLY need to take a logic course.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

Curse You · Jul 13, 2007, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Yea, no one uses Concussion Shot in PvP... oh wait, what's this?

http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:R/...ed_Shot_Ranger

Look at that, right in the variants. It even uses the elite everyone keeps suggesting.

Or, if you like PvE, here's two builds that have been vetted, with Concussion Shot being in the original skillbar.

http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:R/Me_Feverish_Archer
http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:R/...re_to_be_Dazed

Master Ketsu · Jul 13, 2007, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

If it was worth using it would be in use. It is not worth using so it is not in use.

even though everyone else dusted why this is extremely poor reasoning, I just thought Id point something out:

The current meta is not the way it is because the most used skills are all overpowered. The current meta is in its state because those skills and those builds are EASY to run.

Concussion shot is the epitome of this kind of skill. A potential daze every 5-8 seconds at long range ? pwnage. But you have to intterupt with it. Most players cant interrupt with a bow very well, so BA rangers become popular instead because they can just spam and get something that works out of that.

Same with IWAY, VIMWAY, bloodspike, and paraway.

Fitz Rinley · Jul 13, 2007, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

HawkofStorms:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley
If it was worth using it would be in use. It is not worth using so it is not in use.

You REALLY need to take a logic course.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

The problem with those who mildly study reasoning is they only take a small portion of the rules and once cautioned against issues (such as circular reasoning, appeal to authority, or slippery slope) assume that such patterns are never true. In example, it was a slippery slope argument made by a Senator oposed to creating our first income tax, because once created it would only become more invasive and expansive and never again be under public control. Was his slippery slope description wrong? In a Court of Law, as a juror, it was my duty to listen to lawyers elicit testimony from and concerning supposed authorities who contradicted one another in their fields of expertise. Is the appeal to authority to be ignored or do we make our decisions without any data at all? In the same way circular reasoning is not necessarity wrong, the question is whether or not the numbers are verifiable. I do not see rangers running around advertising they are a Concussion Shot Ranger. I do not see Rangers using this as an advertised skill when they ping their builds as designated Interupters. Anecdotally, I observe it is a worthless waste of bytes.

Quote:

HawkofStorms
Yea, no one uses Concussion Shot in PvP... oh wait, what's this?
http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:R/...ed_Shot_Ranger
Look at that, right in the variants. It even uses the elite everyone keeps suggesting.

A variant by nature means a non-standard and non-prefered structure. Further, it is not highly vetted. It is only passable and is not a build to rely upon.

Quote:

Or, if you like PvE, here's two builds that have been vetted, with Concussion Shot being in the original skillbar.
http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:R/Me_Feverish_Archer
http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:R/...re_to_be_Dazed

Another couple of sub-standard builds for low end gaming when you are not serious about getting anything done. And I will accept that it does appear in low grade vetted builds for those who just want to do something different.

Quote:

Curse You
The current meta is not the way it is because the most used skills are all overpowered. The current meta is in its state because those skills and those builds are EASY to run.

Concussion shot is the epitome of this kind of skill. A potential daze every 5-8 seconds at long range ? pwnage. But you have to intterupt with it. Most players cant interrupt with a bow very well, so BA rangers become popular instead because they can just spam and get something that works out of that.

I agree the interupt is difficult for many, and I wonder how much lag plays into this. I mostly play casters and occasionally find my body suspended and the skill box(es) pulsing on the screen as the world warps frames from where I left it. But in less obvious lag I get little ticks. I have high speed DSL and rarely see a red light, if anything it is occasionally yellow (except for one place in North Shiverpeaks where a graphic effect and my computer do not get along).

That being said, I was recommending a change in the skill that would make it useful. It is clear to me that most of you are happy using the other skills and so do not care if this one is available to you in a cost effective form. I doubt anything will be done. But since ANet is so slow at dealing with almost anything I don't generally expect anything better than disappointment as an initial phase from them (since Factions came out).

Curse You · Jul 13, 2007, 08:46 PM // 20:46

First of all, learn how to quote, or don't quote at all. It's very straightforward to use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

A variant by nature means a non-standard and non-prefered structure. Further, it is not highly vetted. It is only passable and is not a build to rely upon.

You said vetted, not good, you also never said anything about it being preferred (which you misspelled by the way).Trying to alter what you said are you? Here let me quote it for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Well, as it stands Concussion Shot is a useless skill that I will never use and I will never place on a hero. It costs too much energy and it does not appear on a single vetted build that I have observed to date. Nor have I ever seen it used in any constructive capacity by any successful ranger. It is therefore a waste of space and programming effort.

From that, I get that you feel that just because you don't like it, it needs to be changed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Another couple of sub-standard builds for low end gaming when you are not serious about getting anything done. And I will accept that it does appear in low grade vetted builds for those who just want to do something different.

Again, you never said they had to be good, only vetted. As well, it is used in a "constructive capacity by any successful ranger" assuming the ranger is able to interrupt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

I agree the interupt is difficult for many, and I wonder how much lag plays into this. I mostly play casters and occasionally find my body suspended and the skill box(es) pulsing on the screen as the world warps frames from where I left it. But in less obvious lag I get little ticks. I have high speed DSL and rarely see a red light, if anything it is occasionally yellow (except for one place in North Shiverpeaks where a graphic effect and my computer do not get along).

So because you have a bad connection/computer, you want them to alter a skill? That right there is the epitome of selfishness. If you lag because your computer can't run the game, it's your problem, not Arena Net's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

That being said, I was recommending a change in the skill that would make it useful. It is clear to me that most of you are happy using the other skills and so do not care if this one is available to you in a cost effective form. I doubt anything will be done. But since ANet is so slow at dealing with almost anything I don't generally expect anything better than disappointment as an initial phase from them (since Factions came out).

It is already useful. Your change would only serve to make the skill worse, as it would become a terrible interrupt skill. You failed to acknowledge Expertise and its ability to make the skill have a reasonable cost, with as little as 10 expertise (unless you're just spamming ranger skills, 15 energy is easy to manage).

Also, bashing Arena Net, yea that always makes them want to help you.

Evilsod · Jul 13, 2007, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Sorry... your trying to say that upping the INTERRUPT to a 3/4 cast would be an improvement just because its energy cost is lower. That point alone basically means everything you have to say on the matter isn't worth reading bcause you have no idea what your talking about.

Do something useful... at least try to draw attention to the Marksmanship skills that do actually suck (quite alot of them really...).

Fitz Rinley · Jul 13, 2007, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Curse You:
First of all, learn how to quote, or don't quote at all. It's very straightforward to use.

First of all, I use whatever style of appearence I want. If you are a compgeek that only understands one system then by all means continue to be limited.

Quote:

You said vetted, not good, you also never said anything about it being preferred (which you misspelled by the way).Trying to alter what you said are you? Here let me quote it for you.

Mispelled or mis-typed? And per the legal term Bem Sonens I would not be concerned. Further, you ignored that I acknowledged that someone had sifted them out in low end variants that are worthless.

Quote:

From that, I get that you feel that just because you don't like it, it needs to be changed.

So, by this logic if I like apple pie I should want to change it to peach cobbler. Because obviously if I do like something then it should be changed: -(P) = -P. Of course, if someone does not like something they seek to change it. Imagine if people only cleaned their houses when they liked how clean and uncluttered they were.

Quote:

Again, you never said they had to be good, only vetted. As well, it is used in a "constructive capacity by any successful ranger" assuming the ranger is able to interrupt.

And again I acknowledged that there was some finding of it in low end uselss vetted builds. No one running around Hell's Precipice going, "GLF Ranger with Concussion Shot" is there?

Quote:

So because you have a bad connection/computer, you want them to alter a skill? That right there is the epitome of selfishness. If you lag because your computer can't run the game, it's your problem, not Arena Net's.

So, you assume I must be the only player with a bad connection or bad computer. I will grant I do not have the highest end gaming computer. It is only an E6600 Duo Core 2.4 GHz with nVidia 7900 Video Card and I am only working on High Speed DSL. My current FPS is 60 and my average ping is 153. Certainly, I should expect poor performance and lousy tracking.

Quote:

It is already useful. Your change would only serve to make the skill worse, as it would become a terrible interrupt skill. You failed to acknowledge Expertise and its ability to make the skill have a reasonable cost, with as little as 10 expertise (unless you're just spamming ranger skills, 15 energy is easy to manage).

No I did not. I know full well the ranger class is, unlike most, is especially geared with augmentive skills that are across 5 attribute areas. The difficulty in putting together any ranger build is in limiting the ranger not only to a theme, but to attribute lines, while throwing away useful opportunities in order to prevent watering down the skills one chooses by spreading Att Pts too thinly. Expertise has its benefits, especially since no one else may have it. But also, for every increment of Expertise one lessens one's oportunities elsewhere in the Ranger build.

I have PvP'd with a ranger and I also took that ranger into the Fire Islands. I do not remember if I finished Hell's with her or not. But I did get her at least as far as Abaddon's Mouth.

Quote:

Also, bashing Arena Net, yea that always makes them want to help you.

ANet has done a great deal to earn bashing. They have worked hard to receive that attention. Why would I possibly deny them the fruits of their desire? If they did not want that attention, then they should have taken some moral values into consideration when placing control of PvE content areas under PvP play while freeing PvP players from all need to interact with PvE play. And no, things like scroll drops in FoW/UW does not eliminate what is essentially an immoral action. Nor is this the only one.

With respect to all the issues I had after Factions came out, ANet has made it possible to view colors before one wastes them one one's armor, and they have partially alleviated storage so that I do not need more than one mule to hold quest materials, crafting materials, collector items, and options I might some day see better of.

Fitz Rinley · Jul 14, 2007, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Deleted: It told me that it did not go through.

Fitz Rinley · Jul 14, 2007, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Sorry... your trying to say that upping the INTERRUPT to a 3/4 cast would be an improvement just because its energy cost is lower. That point alone basically means everything you have to say on the matter isn't worth reading bcause you have no idea what your talking about.

Do something useful... at least try to draw attention to the Marksmanship skills that do actually suck (quite alot of them really...).

No, it means I through in some alterations to adjust it for consideration. So, far what I find is people who have other builds who would not worry about using this and therefore cannot be bothered to consider alternatives. To date, in this discussion, I am the only one who has taken the time to offer any numbers. The rest have been too lazy to consider doing anything to make the skill more usable and less unwieldy. Their reliance upon losing the elite slot or pumping numbers into expertise at the expense of other attributes (of which the ranger has a five interactive attributes instead of a limited number of stand-alones) shows a willingness to maintain very limited structures and focus, - a general lack of flexibility.

Evilsod · Jul 14, 2007, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

No, it means I through in some alterations to adjust it for consideration. So, far what I find is people who have other builds who would not worry about using this and therefore cannot be bothered to consider alternatives.

Thats because your the only person who has actually decided Concussion Shot needs altering... nobody else does.

Quote:

To date, in this discussion, I am the only one who has taken the time to offer any numbers.

You gave numbers about what the skill should be changed to... since nobody else thinks it should be changed... well i'm sure you can figure it out.

Quote:

Their reliance upon losing the elite slot or pumping numbers into expertise

Because Ranger builds never do that... infact no buld does thats... the horror of having to boost attributes to make something worth using or use an elite slot to make something effective. Mantra of Recovery mesmers would have a heart attack!

Quote:

at the expense of other attributes (of which the ranger has a five interactive attributes instead of a limited number of stand-alones)

Beast Mastery, Expertise, Wilderness Survival, Marksmanship. Am i missing something here or am i just not getting what you meant :S

Curse You · Jul 14, 2007, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

First of all, I use whatever style of appearence I want. If you are a compgeek that only understands one system then by all means continue to be limited.

More insults, frankly, I'm not surprised.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Mispelled or mis-typed? And per the legal term Bem Sonens I would not be concerned. Further, you ignored that I acknowledged that someone had sifted them out in low end variants that are worthless.

So I'm supposed to know that you mis-typed it now?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

So, by this logic if I like apple pie I should want to change it to peach cobbler. Because obviously if I do like something then it should be changed: -(P) = -P. Of course, if someone does not like something they seek to change it. Imagine if people only cleaned their houses when they liked how clean and uncluttered they were.

Does changing your pie affect everyone else in your city? No. If someone doesn't clean their house, does everyone on the block have to walk through piles of dirty clothes? No. So your analogies, are totally flawed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

And again I acknowledged that there was some finding of it in low end uselss vetted builds. No one running around Hell's Precipice going, "GLF Ranger with Concussion Shot" is there?

Is anyone running around there saying "GLF Searing Flames ele". Probably not, since they would be useless unless the group has a winter ranger. But does that mean that the build is useless? Hardly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

So, you assume I must be the only player with a bad connection or bad computer. I will grant I do not have the highest end gaming computer. It is only an E6600 Duo Core 2.4 GHz with nVidia 7900 Video Card and I am only working on High Speed DSL. My current FPS is 60 and my average ping is 153. Certainly, I should expect poor performance and lousy tracking.

Everyone else with bad connections and bad computers, has learned that they shouldn't complain, since it's not like Arena Net can do anything about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

No I did not. I know full well the ranger class is, unlike most, is especially geared with augmentive skills that are across 5 attribute areas. The difficulty in putting together any ranger build is in limiting the ranger not only to a theme, but to attribute lines, while throwing away useful opportunities in order to prevent watering down the skills one chooses by spreading Att Pts too thinly. Expertise has its benefits, especially since no one else may have it. But also, for every increment of Expertise one lessens one's oportunities elsewhere in the Ranger build.

I have PvP'd with a ranger and I also took that ranger into the Fire Islands. I do not remember if I finished Hell's with her or not. But I did get her at least as far as Abaddon's Mouth.

EvilSod said this too but, 5 attributes? What kind of ranger are you playing? You claim to know rangers, but say this.

Also, it's never been very effective to use 4 attributes. Sure there are builds that can do it, but rangers are horrible at it. Beast mastery has always been the weakest ranger attribute, mainly due to the requirement of a pet to use more than half the skills. Ranger have never been about using specific attributes, that's reserved for Elementalists and Necromancers. Rangers have always been about a theme.

Re-arranging attributes makes some skills weaker? When did they make that happen? *end sarcasm*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

ANet has done a great deal to earn bashing. They have worked hard to receive that attention. Why would I possibly deny them the fruits of their desire? If they did not want that attention, then they should have taken some moral values into consideration when placing control of PvE content areas under PvP play while freeing PvP players from all need to interact with PvE play. And no, things like scroll drops in FoW/UW does not eliminate what is essentially an immoral action. Nor is this the only one.

With respect to all the issues I had after Factions came out, ANet has made it possible to view colors before one wastes them one one's armor, and they have partially alleviated storage so that I do not need more than one mule to hold quest materials, crafting materials, collector items, and options I might some day see better of.

They want suggestions, not people who have no clue what they're talking about demanding things.

So it's now immoral for them to change their game? Well I have something to say to that, or should I say, I have something you signed that conflicts very much with your statement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EULA

(a) Content. You acknowledge that by using the Software and the Service you will have access to graphics, sound effects, music, animation-style video, content, layout, design, files, data, characters (and items and attributes associated with characters), game objects and text (collectively, "Game Content"). NC Interactive does not pre-screen Game Content as a matter of policy. YOU UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT NC INTERACTIVE HAS THE RIGHT, BUT NOT THE OBLIGATION, TO REMOVE ANY CONTENT (INCLUDING YOURS) IN WHOLE OR IN PART AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON OR NO REASON, WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE AND WITH NO LIABILITY OF ANY KIND.

Bolded the important part. It was already in all caps.

Fitz Rinley · Jul 14, 2007, 05:40 AM // 05:40

Quote:

Curse You:
More insults, frankly, I'm not surprised.

I merely display a general garment. Do you insinuate it is cut to some particular person’s fit?

Quote:

Fitz Rinley
Mispelled or mis-typed?

So I'm supposed to know that you mis-typed it now?

Most people have the capacity of identifying when a key stroke simply didn’t register to the system, over registered in the case of two many letters, is a near-by key (eg. grom instead of from), etc.

Quote:

Fitz Rinley:
So, by this logic if I like apple pie I should want to change it to peach cobbler. Because obviously if I do like something then it should be changed: -(P) = -P. Of course, if someone does not like something they seek to change it. Imagine if people only cleaned their houses when they liked how clean and uncluttered they were.

Does changing your pie affect everyone else in your city? No. If someone doesn't clean their house, does everyone on the block have to walk through piles of dirty clothes? No. So your analogies, are totally flawed.

Incorrect. First, it is not my logic pattern but yours. You reasoned that a person should not want to change something when they do not like it. The inverse is they should want to change the things they like. Both patterns are flawed. The pattern is yours. You now add an additional element of outside influence/interaction in order to attempt to wiggle out of your flawed logical protocol. Such would be:
–(P) =/= -P if -|P|∩Q.

Quote:

Fitz Rinley:
And again I acknowledged that there was some finding of it in low end uselss vetted builds. No one running around Hell's Precipice going, "GLF Ranger with Concussion Shot" is there?

Is anyone running around there saying "GLF Searing Flames ele". Probably not, since they would be useless unless the group has a winter ranger. But does that mean that the build is useless? Hardly.

I used Hell’s as an example, I have never seen anyone ask for the skill in a any recruitment. I have seen rangers asked for traps, specific traps, Barage, and to leave their pets at home. (In general Beast Mastery is merely and only for playing around or using the animal as a diversionary sac. It has no value as a primary and supportive PvE build, and the only decent vetted build has no room for a resurrect because of how poorly BM is handled.) That aside, the skill remains unpopular and relatively useless because of an extreme cost that limits the ranger in other areas.

Quote:

Fitz Rinley:
So, you assume I must be the only player with a bad connection or bad computer. I will grant I do not have the highest end gaming computer. It is only an E6600 Duo Core 2.4 GHz with nVidia 7900 Video Card and I am only working on High Speed DSL. My current FPS is 60 and my average ping is 153. Certainly, I should expect poor performance and lousy tracking.

Everyone else with bad connections and bad computers, has learned that they shouldn't complain, since it's not like Arena Net can do anything about it.

However, since I do not have either, and since the problems with tracking and difficulties in an area go up specifically with the amount of activity in that area, it seems to me the difficulty is on their end. As an example, the problems in Altrumm Ruins area when there are hundreds of Sweatshop/Bot Farmers running all over it (worse than I ever saw Elona’s Reach).

Quote:

Fitz Rinley
No I did not. I know full well the ranger class is, unlike most, is especially geared with augmentive skills that are across 5 attribute areas. The difficulty in putting together any ranger build is in limiting the ranger not only to a theme, but to attribute lines, while throwing away useful opportunities in order to prevent watering down the skills one chooses by spreading Att Pts too thinly. Expertise has its benefits, especially since no one else may have it. But also, for every increment of Expertise one lessens one's oportunities elsewhere in the Ranger build.

EvilSod said this too but, 5 attributes? What kind of ranger are you playing? You claim to know rangers, but say this.

Also, it's never been very effective to use 4 attributes. Sure there are builds that can do it, but rangers are horrible at it. Beast mastery has always been the weakest ranger attribute, mainly due to the requirement of a pet to use more than half the skills. Ranger have never been about using specific attributes, that's reserved for Elementalists and Necromancers. Rangers have always been about a theme.

Re-arranging attributes makes some skills weaker? When did they make that happen? *end sarcasm*

Well, since you are new, I will explain it too you using Wa/Mo directions. Using a 20th level Wa/Mo and I can have:
A. 3 attributes lines, say: Str 12 Wpn 12 Heal 3 (Res Chant) - r 0
B. 4 attribute lines, say: Tac 11 Wpn 11 Str 8 Heal 3 - r 4
C. 5 attribute lines, say: Str 9 Wpn 9 Tac 9 Prot 9 Heal 3 – r 2
D. 6 attibute lines, say: Str 9 Wpn 9 Tac 9 Prot 8 Smite 5 Heal 2 – r 1
Now the problem with mode D is that all skills in the bar will be ‘’watered down’’ in strength/effectiveness in comparison to any skill in the bar of modes A through C. Hence, as I indicated a Ranger cannot spread themselves through all of their attributes without watering down their skills.

If we look at a theme such as poison, for the Ranger it is set in Beast Mastery and Wilderness Survival – meaning Marksmanship and Expertise bring us down to mode B minimum and more likely mode C. A Necromancer on the other hand has all skills for poison in Curse and Death; this allows building in mode A or B. Elementalists rarely them outside of one attribute and so are almost always in mode A. But if we consider burning we come across the same kind of thing. For Paragons, the only burning skill not in Leadership, is in their weapon attribute. For Dervish all burning is in Mysticism, for Rangers, it is Marks and Wilderness, leaving an opportunity to advance to mode A if expertise is rank 3. However we could drop down to mode B, put expertise at rank 8 and carry Mark of Rodgort at rank 3 for 2 extra sec of fire damage on every hit with our flame string. These are examples of the difference between theme and mode. Themes are things like: Poison, interrupt, burning, daze, penetrating, etc. The more branching out among attributes one must do to follow a theme the weaker the skills will be when one expresses or executes that theme because the limits in mode will not support it.

Quote:

Fitz Rinley:
ANet has done a great deal to earn bashing. They have worked hard to receive that attention. Why would I possibly deny them the fruits of their desire? If they did not want that attention, then they should have taken some moral values into consideration when placing control of PvE content areas under PvP play while freeing PvP players from all need to interact with PvE play. And no, things like scroll drops in FoW/UW does not eliminate what is essentially an immoral action. Nor is this the only one.

With respect to all the issues I had after Factions came out, ANet has made it possible to view colors before one wastes them one one's armor, and they have partially alleviated storage so that I do not need more than one mule to hold quest materials, crafting materials, collector items, and options I might some day see better of.

They want suggestions, not people who have no clue what they're talking about demanding things.

I actually made a suggestion and no one else has. I proposed a set of figures for discussion and adjustment and began amending them as discussion was starting to take form. No one else has made any effort whatsoever except to indicate they are happy not being interrupted by rangers and do not want any ranger skills that could interrupt them.

Quote:

Curse You :
So it's now immoral for them to change their game? Well I have something to say to that, or should I say, I have something you signed that conflicts very much with your statement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EULA
(a) Content. You acknowledge that by using the Software and the Service you will have access to graphics, sound effects, music, animation-style video, content, layout, design, files, data, characters (and items and attributes associated with characters), game objects and text (collectively, "Game Content"). NC Interactive does not pre-screen Game Content as a matter of policy. YOU UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT NC INTERACTIVE HAS THE RIGHT, BUT NOT THE OBLIGATION, TO REMOVE ANY CONTENT (INCLUDING YOURS) IN WHOLE OR IN PART AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON OR NO REASON, WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE AND WITH NO LIABILITY OF ANY KIND.

You might try paying attention to what you read. But since you want a slightly better break down:

Quote:

Originally posted by Fitz Rinley:
Considering the negativity:

1. The only way a person can test to see if something is positive is to first deny it.

This may seem strange, but it is the very nature of inquiry. You can only question or quest on something which you do not have positive evidence of. If you did have positive evidence you would not need to question or search it out (quest on it). Scientific inquiry is based on a control group and denial of the something to find a result. Gossip is based on an idae and its denial to determine its truth. (Person 1: They eloped! Person 2: No, Really? Person 1: Yeah, really it was on such and such date at...)

My opinions on:

Pro's on GW: Prophecies:
1. Involved story webbing meant to capture interest for 1 year of play.
2. Skill access readily available either thru PvP unlocks (roughly a build a day for most) or skills reward quests.
3. Extensive area to map out with many yet developable areas for links to future campaigns.
4. Leans to Occidental story telling style.

Con's (excluding bugs I think):
1. Details of play poorly or completely not elaborated by manufacturer in provided materials.
2. Character builds uneven in power to concept forcing players to play standard builds, and eliminating optional possibilities.
3. AoE nerf lessening the value and power of many spells, but especially the elementalist class.
4. Original key codes in nearly illegible script.
5. Excellent but repetitive graphics.
6. Gold intensely difficult to get for most players (inspiring E-baying and high levels of scamming).
7. Desirable drops intensely difficult to get for most players (inspiring E-baying and high levels of scamming).
8. Promoted as a Massive Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Game (MMORPG) when it is a Massive Multiplayer On-line Game (MMOG).
9. A poorly executed system of Favor meant to coerce casual players into professional PvP play at the Hall of Heroes by denying access to content then established for that purpose. This is a continuing issue that disregards the opportunities to play of local people with alternative life schedules to their regions peak hours access. Nor was the statement that people who do not have access should go win it for themselves, since the majority of players cannot be professional Hall of Heroes combatants.

Pros GW: Factions:
1. Involved story webbing meant to capture interest while drawing players into a PvP orientation over 6 months of play.
2. Skill access available for purchase earlier than in Prophecies.
3. Smaller areas with greater amount of enemies to increase intensity of action (slightly overboard on this one).
4. Leans to Oriental story telling style.
5. Improved graphic detailing in almost every artistic way.
6. Armor attributes no longer controls style options - improved options of play.
7. Desirable weapons and off-hand items now available from collectors along with more options for collectables in general.
8. Lower and higher level green drops available from beginning area on thru.
9. Interactive with most of the Prophecies campaign.
10. New key codes clearly legible.
11. Gold easier to get.
12. Drops improved with Factions upgrade.
13. Addition of titles as game play optional goals.

Con's (excluding bugs I think):
1. Access to skills via skills quests eliminated after initial secondary quests.
2. Details of play still poorly or completely not elaborated by manufacturer in provided materials.
3. Character builds uneven in power to concept forcing players to play standard builds, and eliminating optional possibilities.
4. Adjustment of Death Attribute Skills to balance PvP play of Minion Masters based upon Factions based access permanently destroys traditional Minion Master builds, resulting in many hostile players.
5. The number of gold sinks exponentially increased.
7. Promoted as an extension of Prophecies play where PvP would recieve some improved status.
8. A poorly executed system of Faction resulting in player over player control of access to game content areas (again meant to coerce casual players into professional PvP style play).
9. A poorly prepared marketing and production plan for determining demand for Collectors Edition of game, resulting in a hostile community.
10. Changes in play (particularly alliance battles and GvG) after the preview event so that people felt they did not get the product expected.

In addition:
The term ''rift'' in the following is used to mean a gap of perception, opportunity, or agreement.
1. There are rifts between avid PvP and PvE gamers who would like to see the game defined solely as the style of play they prefer, resulting in much negativity.
2. There are rifts between longstanding players who may or may not have experience back to Beta work in original game, but who have always had access to every exploit available since game release, and those who have come later expected to achieve the same things/wealth/personal experience as those with a year in game. (This rift is ofcourse bridged by those with varying degrees of time in game.)
3. There are rifts between professional players and casual players where each define the other as snobby or lazy respectively. The first appear to define self-esteem based on excessive effort to accomplish and impune that of others if they do not do the same things. The latter appear to relax thru the social and gaming opportunities available and find the excessive effort tediously unneeded.

Curse You · Jul 14, 2007, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Incorrect. First, it is not my logic pattern but yours. You reasoned that a person should not want to change something when they do not like it. The inverse is they should want to change the things they like. Both patterns are flawed. The pattern is yours. You now add an additional element of outside influence/interaction in order to attempt to wiggle out of your flawed logical protocol. Such would be:
–(P) =/= -P if -|P|∩Q.

I reasoned that it is ignorant for a single person to want to change something that effects others, simply for their own personal reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

I used Hell’s as an example, I have never seen anyone ask for the skill in a any recruitment. I have seen rangers asked for traps, specific traps, Barage, and to leave their pets at home. (In general Beast Mastery is merely and only for playing around or using the animal as a diversionary sac. It has no value as a primary and supportive PvE build, and the only decent vetted build has no room for a resurrect because of how poorly BM is handled.) That aside, the skill remains unpopular and relatively useless because of an extreme cost that limits the ranger in other areas.

The skill is underused because (as was said earlier) people are generally very bad at interrupting. Since this skill requires a person to be a good interrupter, many people don't like to use it. It is not because it is a bad skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

However, since I do not have either, and since the problems with tracking and difficulties in an area go up specifically with the amount of activity in that area, it seems to me the difficulty is on their end. As an example, the problems in Altrumm Ruins area when there are hundreds of Sweatshop/Bot Farmers running all over it (worse than I ever saw Elona’s Reach).

Right. You yourself, in the exact thing I quoted said, "Certainly, I should expect poor performance and lousy tracking." Don't just try telling me the opposite, just because you realized that you messed up. If you had some decency, you could at least mention your error, rather than just flat out contradicting yourself.
Just because you have difficulties in a area with lots of stuff to process (all those bots), don't go telling me about how it must be a problem on their end, when you've admitted to having a weak computer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Well, since you are new, I will explain it too you using Wa/Mo directions. Using a 20th level Wa/Mo and I can have:
A. 3 attributes lines, say: Str 12 Wpn 12 Heal 3 (Res Chant) - r 0
B. 4 attribute lines, say: Tac 11 Wpn 11 Str 8 Heal 3 - r 4
C. 5 attribute lines, say: Str 9 Wpn 9 Tac 9 Prot 9 Heal 3 – r 2
D. 6 attibute lines, say: Str 9 Wpn 9 Tac 9 Prot 8 Smite 5 Heal 2 – r 1
Now the problem with mode D is that all skills in the bar will be ‘’watered down’’ in strength/effectiveness in comparison to any skill in the bar of modes A through C. Hence, as I indicated a Ranger cannot spread themselves through all of their attributes without watering down their skills.

New? Buddy, I've posted more things than you (a lot more), and so it could be assumed that I know more when it comes to this kind of stuff. And from the looks of things, I do.
You cannot call a secondary profession's attribute a part of your primary, that's not how it works.
I also know well enough that a R/Mo with healing prayers (or any martial based primary) is never a good combo. Sure you may be able to heal yourself, but isn't that what the monk is for? There are a number of skills that could assist you that belong to your primary, as well as the attribute you're already using, rather than those belonging to you secondary.

And frankly, I can easily use my warrior with Strength 8, Axe 10, Tactics 12.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

If we look at a theme such as poison, for the Ranger it is set in Beast Mastery and Wilderness Survival – meaning Marksmanship and Expertise bring us down to mode B minimum and more likely mode C. A Necromancer on the other hand has all skills for poison in Curse and Death; this allows building in mode A or B. Elementalists rarely them outside of one attribute and so are almost always in mode A. But if we consider burning we come across the same kind of thing. For Paragons, the only burning skill not in Leadership, is in their weapon attribute. For Dervish all burning is in Mysticism, for Rangers, it is Marks and Wilderness, leaving an opportunity to advance to mode A if expertise is rank 3. However we could drop down to mode B, put expertise at rank 8 and carry Mark of Rodgort at rank 3 for 2 extra sec of fire damage on every hit with our flame string. These are examples of the difference between theme and mode. Themes are things like: Poison, interrupt, burning, daze, penetrating, etc. The more branching out among attributes one must do to follow a theme the weaker the skills will be when one expresses or executes that theme because the limits in mode will not support it.

I can easily make a poison ranger work with Expertise 12, Marksmanship 10, Wilderness 8. Poison is an easy condition to apply.

Also, why do you seem to think that the only mix with three attributes is 12, 12, 3?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

I actually made a suggestion and no one else has. I proposed a set of figures for discussion and adjustment and began amending them as discussion was starting to take form. No one else has made any effort whatsoever except to indicate they are happy not being interrupted by rangers and do not want any ranger skills that could interrupt them.

In case you didn't notice, no one agrees with you. Also, Concussion Shot isn't the only interrupt skill for rangers. It's a skill intended to be used by someone who is able to interrupt to give them an easier time interrupting after their fist interrupt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

You might try paying attention to what you read. But since you want a slightly better break down:

I'm quite certain I understood it perfectly clear. It basically tells you that you agree that they have full rights to do whatever they choose with their game, even if it negatively effects you.

I don't see how your "speech" was at all relevant. Sure negativity isn't always bad, but when you start ranting about their actions being "immoral" I start opposing the negativity. If they want to change their game, that's their business. They choose to listen to their customers. They could also choose to do whatever they want. The only reason they don't is because they need customers to make money.

I've look at the positive points of your proposed change. I know that they are outweighed by the bad points.