Curse

DirtyDirty · Jul 12, 2007, 01:49 PM // 13:49

topic closed by anet policy

Coridan · Jul 12, 2007, 02:01 PM // 14:01

although i agree that it would work...but maybe a bit abuseable as well. But the solution doesn't resovle the problem....it removes the player...but still leaves the team short 1 person.

bobrath · Jul 12, 2007, 02:07 PM // 14:07

If limited (initially) to PvP, then actual abuse of this would be *very* limited - especially if it requires the full vote of the group.

One problem tho, if you have two leechers in the group... you'll never be able to get the unanimous vote!

genofreek · Jul 12, 2007, 10:53 PM // 22:53

I actually like this. I PvPed a bit to farm faction in Cantha since I was getting sick of repeatable quests, and while I sucked royally at it, I still tried like hell and made a few kills. Some jerk was apparently just loading the screen long enough to see is the battle was over and then clicking to enter the next one or something, because he didn't move the whole time. Pisses me off to think he was getting the same rewards I was.

You're a man short either way, so why not eject the leechers? The only way it'd be abused is if you end up in the middle of a cliquey group of jackasses, and if that's the case you're better off waiting for a team you can have fun with.

/signed.

Steps_Descending · Jul 13, 2007, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Even though it still leaves the team 1 player short, in the long run it might reduce leeching. There will still be someone ready to do it and the command will not be widely used in the begining.

As for the unanimous problem, I thought about something :
To be kicked, the vote must be accepted by everyone not being voted to be kicked.
That means if there are 2 leechers, one cannot protect the other leecher.

taiwf · Jul 13, 2007, 09:16 AM // 09:16

what if leech are in 'pair'? short of one person simply void this mechanism.

i think a pop up entering some code only human readable is better.

Anyway, user got kick from the team (either vote out or fail to enter code), more then 3 time in successive got ban for a period of time ( say 3 hours).. The short ban is what really stop the leechers IMO.

populationcontrol · Jul 13, 2007, 05:05 PM // 17:05

i think as it is guild wars can be really abusive and though you might intend this for "leechers" it will probably be used to get rid of players you dont like or whom have different builds from the standard in farming expeditions. i think to do something like that would just wind up being some control abusive thing over others, besides half the time i dont think people are even leeching but like walking the dog or forgot to log out, i really dont think its such a crime against humanity.

Snow Bunny · Jul 13, 2007, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by populationcontrol

i think as it is guild wars can be really abusive and though you might intend this for "leechers" it will probably be used to get rid of players you dont like or whom have different builds from the standard in farming expeditions. i think to do something like that would just wind up being some control abusive thing over others, besides half the time i dont think people are even leeching but like walking the dog or forgot to log out, i really dont think its such a crime against humanity.

I recognize this...but...there needs to be something against leechers. I can understand people make mistakes...but...example

I was at a friend's house...and he was playing gw, playing AB. He just had a guildy be the team leader, and then he and I just left...were gone a couple hours, came back, and voila, my friend had 10k faction. That is abuse, and should be controlled in some way.

populationcontrol · Jul 14, 2007, 06:35 AM // 06:35

i dont like to give power to the angry mob, i think if it really bothers you that someone is leeching (if in fact he is) you can just re-meet in town and reform a group to do the mission or whatever you were doing with him.

populationcontrol · Jul 14, 2007, 06:16 PM // 18:16

not really what your suggesting is to implement a system to kick players by vote, i dont know if youve ever played counterstrike in which something is placed to democratically kick players, primarily for hackers but used all the time for no reason. gw doesnt have any hackers and if you look at counterstrike people get voted out of the game for no particular reason which is anoyying and or abusive, its very easy for a player to form a campaign to kick another he doesnt like or doesnt agree with. also theres the issue of felicicuscalculus (judging what action to take based on the amount of people it will bring happiness too), i personally dont agree that what would make 7 people happy should out weigh the what is felt by the person kicked, this would be something that would also be used to get rid of the unpopular or unconventional, if it really bothers you that someone might be "leeching" i still think its no sacrifice to remeet and go into mission again.

HuntMaster Avatar · Jul 14, 2007, 10:38 PM // 22:38

a kick vote system would just be abused. players would gang up on others they dont like and while the normal group is playing these "Strangers" would get kicked.

an easy way to handle leechers would be to set a kick timer for idle characters. 60 seconds.

another idea is to make the starting spawn zone for players a no reward zone. anyone in this area when the battle begins will not get any factions for the entire battle.

also a DPS effect in the starting zone for idle characters. if you sit in the starting zone after the battle starts you will get major DPS, any leechers not paying attention will lose their survivior title. and will die, a player who dies in this way should not respawn, but instead get ejected from the match.

Adding an AI bot would help. when a team is short of a player, the AI spawns +1 npc per missing player to aid the team in the match.

i think the worse thing A net could do is put a Manual Vote Kick system in the hands of a generally abusive gaming community. Manual Vote Kick System would become a weapon in the hands of control freaks.
just some thoughts.

populationcontrol · Jul 15, 2007, 06:44 AM // 06:44

i agree entirely with this guy, its a better approach to the problem.

HuntMaster Avatar · Jul 16, 2007, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyDirty

I really don't understand how this scenario would play out because players want other players to join them for quests and missions. When parties are in a town trying to recruit more members, I believe they are trying to seek more players to join their group so they can work a mission. So I have to ask the question;

This is completely true. although not completely accurate. Players are looking for party members they feel are "good enough". these players will not just play with anyone. i know this from expeariance. and it is undeniably common.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyDirty

"Why do you assume players would create a team and join a mission... just so they could 'Gang-Up' and kick teammates out of it?"

i do not assume, i know it would happen, i have played with some of the worst people on the planet. they throw hate at players constantly and force the person to leave or stay and continue to be abused.
if a player simply makes a mistake that costs the life of a him/herself or a party member they will get kicked. there are limitless reasons why people are mean for no reason, it applies just the same in a game as in real life when dealing with mental and emotional abusive situations. and people vent their rage online more than in RL. so its far more common.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyDirty

Please listen to the argument which is this:

We CAN kick players out of our groups.
We CAN gang up and eliminate folks we don't want in our parties.
We CAN reject these "strangers" from joining our groups.
And we CAN somewhat abuse our control to form our teams.

I believe your opposition is that you don't want to see players get kicked out of groups. We players currently have this form of control within towns and villages. We have been using these controls since the games were released. We will continue to have these controls as long as they remain unchanged. My suggestion is that we extend a part of this control to the players while they are not in towns/villages. The reality is that we already have that ability to kick people out of groups. Are you guys implying that we players should not be allowed to [KICK] other players entirely? As of now, we have the freedom to invite and kick other players at will; as long as we're in Towns. Why do you feel players shouldn't have part of this freedom after leaving the Towns? I don't understand the "don't give players the power to kick other players" side of the argument because I understand that we already have that power.

first off, kicking in town is Very Differant, than kicking on mission,quests,farm runs,PVP, and more. Very very differant.
in town I can simply find another group, or get AI companions, or solo. i get to make the choice. i am not at risk of losing anything. the party is at no risk either, they can fil the gap.

Being kicked outside of town.

i kill a creature and get a green or gold drop ( i get kicked) the item becomes free to grab for all ( as it does now when someone drops) someone steals it and doesnt give it to the rightful owner.

A large amount of gold and items is on the ground, people are fighting and not picking up yet. ( friends kick others) then steal all drops and gold.

Those are only two of the things that Scream Vote Kick Scam.

Other Reasons players get would get kicked.

Being a Newb / Not Knowing the Mission,Quest,
Having a Slow Load Time
having a Slower connection speed (minor lag) - they just stand there getting lag spike and come back to being kicked.
making a mistake that cost the player his/her life. or the life of another party member (accidental)
Dying because of the lack of team support and soley being blamed for the death (kicked)
getting a drop someone else wanted ( getting majority of the drops).
Not using skills how Other players think they should be used.
Helping in farming run and when only the boss is left Being kicked so the other players get better chances of drop
UW/FoW Vote Kick Ectos Scam would become rampant and the area would become a Kick Fest.
Bored Players just being mean to pass the time. (we see this on Diablo2 LOD alot)
having an opinion that differs from the majority (Kick) ( i see this mentality everywhere online)

and many many many other reasons. i am against vote kick systems. give players power and they will abuse it. its a fact. the power to eject players from groups after they have left town
has to be in the control of the computer only. player will just abuse it. its that simple. Few players use self control online, and how others feel is of little concern. the power to eject leechers has to
be in the computers hands, not ours.

there are alternatives to a vote kick system. if my ideas do not sit well with you then feel free to find others with a mind for fair and balanced gaming mechanics.

i would just like to add. this is about leechers, not many leechers join quests and missions, really only Competitive play. fort aspenwood as an exsample.
so why players would need a vote kick feature outside of competitive play is beyond me and leads back to possible scam intent.
there are too many risks involved with it and as has been seen time and time again, the honor system fails when dealing with online gamers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyDirty

Of course I just thought of a problem and a solution;

What about a 2-man PvE party? (ex. somebody running for another player)
The non-runner tries to kick the runner at the end of mission?

Solution? For the minimum 2-man PvE party; if a person is kicked, return both players to the village. Or disable the vote-kick for 2-man parties. So far it's the only form of abuse that I could think of. As for PvP, I don't know of any reason why a player would intentionally abuse the vote-kick and make the team -1. In that particular case, I would think that quitters are a bigger problem than kickers.

Again i thought this was a anti leecher only discussion, why would players need a kick feature in missions and areas unless they plan on kick scamming players for drops/gold.

your pushing a bit to hard for vote kicking without considering alternatives and leads me to think you wish to have a vote kick system for more personal and unfair reasons.

Vote Kick System = Rigged Game (unplayable by legit players)

genofreek · Jul 16, 2007, 05:07 AM // 05:07

I can see where he's coming from with the mob mentality that could take over if someone insists on playing like a dumbass and aggroing everything in a 50-mile radius... but chances are that party was doomed and headed back to the outpost to kick the offending player anyway.

Might as well save them some time.

I don't think most GW players are evil/assholes/immature/scammers. You'd be naive to say there aren't any -- I've had some pretty nasty experiences myself -- but I guess Avatar's playing Guild Wars: The Bronx or something. Of course you'll see abuse now and then; people abuse the invite/kick system we have now. It'll happen. But I don't think it'd be the widespread scammer plague Avatar's describing.

HuntMaster Avatar · Jul 16, 2007, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyDirty

Sir, that is your personal business and I won't comment on your experiences. I'll only say that Guild Wars is a great game. No matter how awful or terrible other players may perform... that's just life and nobody plays absolutely perfect. I will never be the best GW player in the world. I don't feel I am better or worse than any other given player. I simply enjoy everything this game has to offer because it's great fun and I look forward to all the future Guild Wars expansions.

being the best gw player has absolutely nothing to do with what i said. not one single thing. next time you are going to quote me, quote the entire sentence so as not to mis represent me. i am not an elitist. skill in this game does not matter to me and is not a requirement i hold as a priority.. when i say "Worst" i mean how they treat people, not skill.
People always think they are better than they really are, only i think i am worse than i actually am.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyDirty

These seem like 1-on-1 issues. A kick-vote would be required by every other member in order to successfully kick another member. Some of these involve great analysis and attention to exploit. Other examples are based on personal opinion. Not only that, but can somebody really tell somebody else how to play this game? Maybe other players are not 100% as good as you HuntMasterAvatar, but not all of us feel and react the exact same way as you might. I'm not gonna assume that other players are angry, abusive, control-freaks. I don't feel kick-voting is the lethal weapon that you're trying to make it seem. With the issue of leeching; that is something that affects the entire team. Leeching takes away from not just 1 player, but from ALL other players. According to the other complaints; leeching affects the whole group in a negative way. Many player have great possible solutions to leeching. Allowing us to kick the leecher would satisfy the entire party.

there are players out there whos speciality is devising new scamming methods and ways to unbalance the game in their own favor. it wouldnt take much time for them to learn.
can others tell me how to play the game? Yes! do i have to listen? No! with a vote kick system can the group kick me if i dont do what they want and play how they want? Yes!

As to this comment "Maybe other players are not 100% as good as you HuntMasterAvatar, but not all of us feel and react the exact same way as you might."
to this i say, i never implied i was talented in this game at all. so where you get the idea i did i would love to know! also i feel and react to selfish, abusive, manipulating players in a simple fashion.
i add them to my Naughty List on my site, and never deal with them again. problem solved for me. maybe you just havnt been exposed to the amount of online abuse and scams as i have, i have been an active member of online gaming for over 10 years and yes, i have zero tolerance for scammers, or anything disrespectful and unfair. but i never said i was good, so to say that is very unfair.
i agree leeching is a major problem, and i agree it needs to get fixed. but not with a vote kick system. and there is no need to have a vote kick system outside competitive missions, if even that!
there are alternatives to a vote kick system. ones that dont offer the opportunity of player abuse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyDirty

Again; leeching is not A-Net's problem. A computerized solution may work in some cases. However leeching is not a computerized problem, it's a people problem. People-problems should be handled with people-solutions. Similar to the "SELLING: ---10k" problem in the public chat. That was a people-problem that was solved with a people-solution. Instead of blocking all messages involving the phrases "Selling, Buying, WTB, 100k, ect..." A-net made it a rule that players can not sell in the public chat. It was a problem that was solved without any great losses in gameplay. Leeching is a problem for the players. The best solution might be to let us players handle the leechers because we are the ones affected by it. Not A-Net.

and this can be done without a vote kick system. those who spamm chat got reported. anet finally did something about it. so this tells me everyone needs to stop being lazy (excluding those who do report) and start reporting leechers in Competitive areas. also a computer Can solve the problem with leechers in Competitive areas, refer to my earlier post for the ideas of a Idle kick, DPS zone and no reward zone.
i would just like to add here that i hate leechers in fort aspenwood, i loved CM (competitve missions) and my enjoyment was ruined by an average of 3 leechers per game on my side.
still a vote kick system would make things worse. and people would begin being reported for kick abuse. (vote kick scam)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyDirty

The bottom line is Guild Wars is a great game. I don't grasp the devastation and personal grief that you are describing. I don't understand how a player could inflict pain and suffering through a digital-world of magic and monsters. I've read other player's complaints about leeching in other threads. I agree with their opinions; this is an in-game problem faced by the players. I felt that adding a kick-vote option could answer the complaints coming from other players.

i also love the game, and agree it is a great game. i have personally expearianced the worst players possible and it was not uncommon, even on gw in town i constantly, every day see abusive posts and scams.

Another abusable feature would only add to the number of players already on the brink of quitting. i have lost many friends on gw because they could no longer handle the hatred people spew forth.
they get on the game and get stressed out, so they can no longer play. because of the A-Holes that care nothing for others feelings.

and how can someone suffer from a game? well a good friend of mine played this game since day 1. his acc was hacked and his personal info stolen. prior to this he was the target of alliance harrassment ( other alliances would PM him with abusive text, and spam in trade Giving Away Free Ectos PM so and so. to the point my friend had to have his DND status on all the time , then his acc was finally hacked and he lost everything he had worked daily on for the past year, the hacker used his account and violated terms of service in some major way like spamming account selling for 100k+ and the account was closed.
my friend emailed the support team and because of lack of proof (he didnt have a working Screenshot button) he lost everything, couldnt proove it was his account and now no longer player online games. he hardly even plays single player or console games. and my friend is not emotionally unstable. he had just been the target of many many scams.

Again my stand point is a vote kick system would be a bigger problem than leechers. as leeching is only found in certain areas and a vote kick could impact all of gw. vote kicking is a bad idea.
i see your point of view and i do not share it, i will respectfully agree to disagree with you on this. if the majority of the players thinks its a good idea, that the reward is worth the risk, then maybe one day you will have that vote kick you want. then pretty soon we will have a banlist, and then it can be even harder to enjoy the game.

/notsigned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyDirty

It would be great if a big group doing PvE could eject a disruptive player without defaulting back to the original town.

this would lead to vote kick drop scam. a player gets kicked before he can pick up his/her green/gold drop. this is very unfair and rigged, if you are have trouble with leechers in missions, return to town and boot them. mark them on ignore for a few days and continue with your game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyDirty

Perhaps there could be some sort of "Deserter" function where a player is automatically ejected if they are separated from a % of players for a set period of time, or a a set % of distance.

well since most players dont wait for the stragglers who have lag, this is unfair. a running build can out distance someone without the running skills and they would get booted. and seperating from the main group and getting dropped isnt good either considering players can split up to clear areas faster.

like i said. in competitive missions like fort aspenwood, Idle Timer Boot, No Reward Starting zone. DPS anti title feature. those three things would solve the problem without any possiblity of player abuse.

in missions and quests, a kick feature would be rigged and completely unfair.
as to seperating from main group and % of distance. if this was to actually be applied it would Kill the Runners way to make money. everyone would have to beable to run with the runner (Droks Run with lvl 5's LMAO!)
also when players died the others would have to go back to res them or risk someone getting kicked.

very flawed. just let the vote kick system go already. think up something that wont allow people to cheat.

(another exsample) of vote kick scam.
i run 4 players
once we get close those 4 players vote kick me and finish run without paying.

go play warcraft3 and see how many games you get kicked from. for no reason. then picture that on gw. and yes it would happen.

(also i should add it is my job to find anything dealing with possible scams. and to report it to the community in which i value. and other value my honesty and general desire for balanced and fair play. those who dont normally like to bend rules for self gain, IE scammers. *this is the reason i seem to have "End of the World" type reactions. because i see more scams than most gamers. normally because i look for them. cant report scams if you dont find them.

i believe gamers have to police the game, this helps the creators maintain it easier. similar to reporting bad posts to help the admins of this site. ( I am Pro Report, Pro BanHammer) means i support it.

Shadow of Light · Jul 16, 2007, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Kicking is not the answer.

You need a way to limit the reward to those who deserve it--at the very least requiring some kind of activity (preferrably an activity that would be difficult for a bot to navigate). *Any* activity won't work, as it takes a mere bird-drinking-water thingummy a la Homer Simpson to make it look like buttons are being pushed.

I've given my suggestions for this a while ago, and don't think anything will be gained by repeating them. The game devs are apparently looking into the issue, so we'll see what they come up with.

populationcontrol · Jul 16, 2007, 04:26 PM // 16:26

yeah what if your in one of those 4 hour lightbringer quests or some loooong mission and for no coherent reason you are kicked because people think your a noob, you just lost all your progress in the quest. your forgetting that the votekicking thing could also apply to you.

i also think as mentioned above, organized scams to kick people before they can pick up drops and the over all random reasons you will get kicked if implemented has the potential of reducing your freedom to how you play the game. right now you have the freedom to play and run builds that you like and enjoy to play. if you add a vote kick system people could kick you if you dont play what they want you to run. i think that some of the solutions of huntmaster avatar are more plausible yet some might get lagers kicked, i dont think its really fair that peopel with no lag should suggest these measures, again i think its no sacrifice if you feeel so passionatly about potential leeching to just disband remeet in town and embark the quest again.

bamm bamm bamm · Jul 16, 2007, 06:13 PM // 18:13

I do not like the idea of booting as in essence the players deal the punishment, which doesn't sit right with me. Whatever the answer is, I consider these to be essential tenets to the solution:

The punishment must only kick in after the player has been shown to be leeching over multiple matches, so as not to punish people who have legitimate reasons to go afk.

The punishment must only consist of a restriction of rewards and not a restriction of participation, so as to allow the player to redeem himself statistically and otherwise.

The punishment must be private. There cannot be a mandatory title for public disclosure of an ongoing punishment, as this is effectively a restriction of participation, as the player will not get into a team.

'The system' must not produce any false-positives.

straqtius rexu · Jul 16, 2007, 09:54 PM // 21:54

You see th problem is that if there are more than 1 leech your democratic method doesn't work and sadly at that. What needs to be done is that there has to be some sort of monitoring system that monitors if a character does not move/use skill he/she/it gets booted and another player gets sent into the game. Also, if said person does not move/use skills they do not get any xp at all. This would stop leeching since there would not be a reward for no participation. Anet needs to step up and specifically deny the leecher any sort of reward for their unsportsmanlike like behavior. It seems as of right now that Anet will punish the whole team with their new method of giving hardly any xp to the team as a whole. Personally, I left group punishment back in basic training and since they do not want me to violate their user agreement by using peer pressure on the low life via colorful language they need to do something to improve the gaming experience.

So anet I used a forum like you asked now do something about it.

HuntMaster Avatar · Jul 17, 2007, 02:59 PM // 14:59

as i said in my original post.

solutions to stop leechers has to be specific for specific leeching types.

Survivor title leechers ( Damage per second starting zone) when the battle begins any players in this zone for longer than 60 seconds begins taking 50 DPS

Factions Leechers ( No Reward Starting Zones) when the battle begins any players in this zone for longer than 60 seconds will no longer be able to gain rewards from the game.

Event Leechers (snow ball fight and so on) Idle Kick
after the battle starts any player in the starting zone for more than 60 seconds will get kicked from the match

even if the player is moving around in the starting zones they will still get treated as leechers.

AI NPC Spawn balance.

whenever a player is ejected from a match, the computer spawns +1 npc bot to aid the players in battle, they act like henchmen and will target foes players ping.

as i said this and got no reply to it from DirtyDirty, yet when straqtius rexu mentions my idea, he gets replies!

your point has been made sir, i will resign from this thread. GG.