Curse

Sword · Jul 31, 2007, 10:14 AM // 10:14

i thought there was a hero nerf awhile in ago in HA that allowed no more than 2 heroes or henchmen??
Really boring fighting against the new thumpway with a bunch of heroes

God Apprentice · Jul 31, 2007, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

And what about people who can only spare 1 hour to play Guild Wars, but like to do HA? Having something that's so quick and easy to set up allows them to have their play time. Should they be stripped of their right to participate in the game just because their real life wouldn't permit it?

Heroway will not teach you anything. You cannot learn from each others mistakes because the Hereos with the CERTAIN bars they run have 0 margin for error. Assume Johnny plays nothing but Heroway until r9, he will not be a good monk/mesmer/etc cause he has no experience with other builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WoodyDotNet

/not signed

Reasons have been pretty much covered in previous posts. When heroway starts winning HoH, then Anet should act. But for now, it's only good for a couple rounds in HA before they get sent packing.

Hello? It does win Halls.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

No, the players arent nubs and they dont suck if they beat you. You suck. Stop thinking your better then people that manage to beat you with AI, because your not.

Elitism is pants.

The only elitism here seems to be you. I remember you crying in a thread which was closed by YOU about 6v6 HA. Also quit crying about elitism. Elitism doesn't exist. People raging at you for not protting isn't elitism, it's called ignorance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by infymys

I challenge anybody to match Olias' skill and efficiency at running any of the necro bars that are used in the standard heroway build.

Thank you. Heroes have 0 margin for error with the PARTICULAR builds they run people!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Your continued use of "elitism" to defend the heroes is ridiculous. Why do you not group with those that have about the same experience as you? Oh yes, they are too "n00b" for you. "Lol my heroes are better" You're the elitist.

Good point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

Heroes were a bad idea as they hurt both pvp and pve. I would personally delete them completely. ofc, anet cant do that, so at least kick them from pvp. /signed.

QFT. Ever since Nightfall pugging in PvE has also been pushed aside. Why pug when you can solo with Heroes?

bhavv · Aug 01, 2007, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Apprentice

QFT. Ever since Nightfall pugging in PvE has also been pushed aside. Why pug when you can solo with Heroes?

Now this is rather condradictory, since most people that are hardcore PVP'ers in either HA or GVG prefer to play with heroes in PVE, reasons being that pugs dont listen and run decent builds.

Numerous PVP'ers people have said that heroes are the reason that they started PVE'ing.

And heroes didnt destroy pugs, this has been discussed countless times, Pugs destroyed themselves by their lack of decency. Most people that only hero/hench were actually playing with AI only since way before NF was released.

As for the 'elitism doesnt exist' OFC it does. How does a R0 player get into HA and find a decent group? And I have said before I have gotten to halls with Rankless players on a few occasions, Elitism is not accepting players if they can do the job based on their rank.

Heroes allow these low ranking people to play HA. If you dont like it, then how about playing with them instead?

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Apprentice

Heroway will not teach you anything. You cannot learn from each others mistakes because the Hereos with the CERTAIN bars they run have 0 margin for error. Assume Johnny plays nothing but Heroway until r9, he will not be a good monk/mesmer/etc cause he has no experience with other builds.

And did IWAY/Vimway teach people anything? Countless players farmed easy to play skill-less gimmick builds and got their rank pretty high from doing that.

Regardless, if you see a player that is Rank 9, you cant tell no matter what they say how they really got that fame. And you can learn from heroway by making your own builds and using them. That is what players that like heroway like about it, you can pick up and play the build you want whenever you want, and that isnt a bad thing for me.

Curse You · Aug 01, 2007, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Just a note; look at the upcoming event for this weekend. Now, based on that, do you really think that they're listening to the people who always complain about HA?

Quote:

Originally Posted by infymys

I challenge anybody to match Olias' skill and efficiency at running any of the necro bars that are used in the standard heroway build.

I'd say it's not that hard, as long as the rest of the team actually tells me when the enchantments I'm supposed to be maintaining are no longer on them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qboyz

fine. seems that a lot of you defending heroway are simply ignoring the meaning of PvP: competative gameplay. If you want to "farm" in HA maps why dont you go to tombs in pve? (no one is blocking that game content) If you want to get fame, then you have to be competative enough to get it. It's not a bad thing to lose against high-ranked ppl because they invested more time than you have, which means they are more familiar with the game than you, so why dont you try to learn the game a bit more instead of complaining here in forum?

All I can say is, follow your own advice. I'm not the one complaining. The build most hero teams use, was probably made by a highly experienced HA player (or group of players).

dsnesnintendo · Aug 01, 2007, 01:48 AM // 01:48

/resigned
4 reasons
1. Heros (most) aren't human so disease and eoe dont affect them
2. Interupt skills- they interupt at an ungodly rate
3. corpses- can tell when a corpse comes open in miliseconds
4. THIS IS PvP NOT PvH

Undivine · Aug 01, 2007, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

You mean sort of like Power attracts the corruptible and absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible?

No, power has nothing to do with it. Although PvP does attract proud people. ANet encourages people to have pride in their accomplishments, from /rank to HA rewards to the new accomplishment hall that's going to be in their next release. If "pros" were not supposed to exist, then why is ANet encouraging them?

People are not denied emotes and titles; they are rewarded emotes and titles. The idea that you have to accomplish something to gain something has been in video games almost since the beginning. To unlock hard mode in the original Zelda you have to beat the game. If you only play it causally, you won't get there. It's a reward for beging devoted to their game.

You know, a while ago I was in a group doing a mission. I forget which mission, but that doesn't matter. My wife was one of our monks, and thank goodness for that, because the other monk did us a lot more harm than good. He constantly rushed in and got himself killed. He brought only a heal or two. And his elite was... Barrage. No, he wasn't doing some clever smite build, no Judge's Insight, he just brought Barrage.

At some point you must admit that:

people are better at playing this game than others.
you are better at playing than some people and not as good as others.

This is the beginning of pride. And after people devote a lot of time to their game, you can't expect them not to care when their devotion is made obsolete.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

HA should not, and never should have been, in anyway be linked to FoW/UW.

I completely agree, but that's a different discussion entirely. It still does not excuse abusing the advantages of heroes.

Darkhell153 · Aug 01, 2007, 02:11 AM // 02:11

/notsigned, if your scared of fighting heroes then find a new hobby besides GvG and HA, if someone wants to show off their heroes then let them, just use heroes yourself. It's not that complicated an issue.

OI-812 · Aug 01, 2007, 02:32 AM // 02:32

/semi-signed.

Heroes don't belong in HA.

In GvG... I dunno, doesn't seem as outlandish.

Evilsod · Aug 01, 2007, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

Again, there have always been henchmen. Sure they're not as good as heroes, but they're still AI.

Frankly, there's a reason you can see what's on a hero. It's because you can't have them on TS/Vent with you and they won't call out what's on them. A coordinated party could have a person match a hero's ability to "know" what enchantments are on each party member.
After that, a hero is only as good as the build given to them. And frankly, the build is really what wins.

How many people have actually looked at the build used with heroes and tried to make a counter? It's actually not that hard.

I know theres always been henchman... i just chose to ignore this fact because they are useless for everything but filling in for chars who error7 mid-run. Which as far as i see it, is the point. AI is not suppose to be a primary choice for a slot.

The point is AI is way too far advanced when it comes to observing the battlefield. Give them Discord, they use it the moment someone meets the condition, humans would actually have to find the target... give them an interrupt, they can use it to interrupt 1/4 cast time skills without there been any obvious build ups/chaining, they can spread hexes way more effectively than real players since they know exactly whats on each target. Call me crazy but i hardly see how thats fair on human players when they're up against AI in PvP that excels at the build its given to a point that easily defeats human teams.

I think trying to say that using TS/Vent to inform all allies of what enchantments are on each ally is a bit much... You would have a ridiculous blur of speech if everyone spoke or called when they used an enchantment or hex. In the end it would become even more confusing.

Curse You · Aug 01, 2007, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsnesnintendo

/resigned
4 reasons
1. Heros (most) aren't human so disease and eoe dont affect them

The main heroes used are Master of Whispers and Olias, both of which are affected by them. They just appear immune because many Hero builds use [wiki]Tainted Flesh[/wiki]. Also, the only non-human hero is Zhed, who has stopped being popular.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsnesnintendo

2. Interupt skills- they interupt at an ungodly rate

They also like to interrupt anything, no matter how useless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsnesnintendo

3. corpses- can tell when a corpse comes open in miliseconds

So can I. If I really need some minions, I can just keep pressing a minion skill and it wont start casting until there's a corpse to use. I have beaten AI in races to use corpses many times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsnesnintendo

4. THIS IS PvP NOT PvH

The term PvP has always been on the edge of truth. Almost every type of "high-end" PvP has AI units who will fight among the players.

Besides, Hero battles are technically still PvP (and they only have 2 people involved). All you need for something to be PvP is two people fighting each other.

Fitz Rinley · Aug 01, 2007, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Apprentice

QFT. Ever since Nightfall pugging in PvE has also been pushed aside. Why pug when you can solo with Heroes?

It did not take me long at all to cease PUGing. It had nothing to do with Farming - as I only started the tedious despicable act of farming within the last 10 days. It had nothing to do with Heroes as they did not exist. I henched all of the Fire Islands and Missions except Hell's with my Mesmer because no one wanted a mesmer until they needed interupts on the last boss. The reason I quit PUGing had more to do with the lack of strategy, tactics, unit cohesiveness, courtesy, and high number of Leroys. Why would anyone want to PUG? Almost all the people I do play with have some military experience, as do I.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undivine

No, power has nothing to do with it. Although PvP does attract proud people. ANet encourages people to have pride in their accomplishments, from /rank to HA rewards to the new accomplishment hall that's going to be in their next release. If "pros" were not supposed to exist, then why is ANet encouraging them?

Addiction generates income. Why do we no longer have janitors? Why are they Custodial Engineers? Because a sugar coating, however deceptive the poison it conceals, is still as sweet.

Quote:

People are not denied emotes and titles; they are rewarded emotes and titles. The idea that you have to accomplish something to gain something has been in video games almost since the beginning. To unlock hard mode in the original Zelda you have to beat the game. If you only play it causally, you won't get there. It's a reward for beging devoted to their game.

Really? So, where is the eye candy emotes for finishing the game and again in hard mode? Where are the PvE emotes that are the equivalent, if they are not denied. Instead, these things were held out as bait - "If you want them do anything you can think of to get them." Then people complain because it happens.
And dedication to the game is not determined by what kind of jerk one can be or how fast one can mash the keys, it is determined by whether or not you continue to purchase the game - even when things are being done wrong. I own all three games, 2 accounts, a total of 19 character slots, have the preview for and pre-order for GW:EN. That is the only dedication that counts at the bottom line for ANet.

Quote:

At some point you must admit that some:

people are better at playing this game than others.
you are better at playing than some people and not as good at others.

This is the beginning of pride. And after people devote a lot of time to their game, you can't expect them not to care when their devotion is made obsolete.

That is not pride. It is meritorious realism. Pride is a matter of self-conceit wherein one arrogates themselves as superior to others. When President Eisenhower's mother was asked,"What do you think of your most successful son." She replied,"Whatever do you mean? I have three sons and they are all most successful." To accurately assess what one can and cannot do is a measure of wisdom. But to arrogate, regardless of opportunity or success, that one person is superior to the value of another is folly. That is what the elitism of PvP has promoted.
I have suggested things to ameliorate this slightly. One such suggestion was that before a combat could begin all avatars meet and salute one another, perhaps in an ante-chamber before being zoned to starting positions. Nor does this have to be interactive - it can be prescripted. But the ceremonial improves respect. I also think the same should be done after the battle is over, and anyone caught degrading the victors or vanquished should be suspended or banned.

If the rewards for PvP were not so exclusive, and at least had their equal in PvE, then there would be less incentive to crash PvP with power plays.

Undivine · Aug 01, 2007, 06:40 AM // 06:40

Fitz, you can leave the PvE vs PvP and which one ANet treats better at the door because that's completely irrelevant. Whether ANet treats PvP better or not doesn't make any excuses for debilitating it.

And forget about the assholes who /dance hump and scream "booya!" at the end of a match. They are jerks, and such jerks can (and do) also use heroway. What kind of ass a player is is irrelevant as well.

Pride can exist whether it's warranted or not. I'm talking about people who are legitimately proud of their skill. "Meritorious realism" sounds like another way of saying merited pride to me. People who hone their skills deserve those rather frivolous rewards of /rank. I don't have any /rank emote and couldn't care less. Do you really want them that badly that you want to rely on such a base strategy as heroway? It sounds more like you want to piss people off for having pride: you've such an unflattering definition of the word.

Dedication to the game is not just buying it. That is where they earn their money, but ANet too has pride in their work. They know they've made a hit and are pleased with themselves. If people bought it and didn't play it or played it briefly, they wouldn't be happy, even if people kept buying it. They're not just earning money; they're competing with MMORPGs. They're not just selling copies; they're trying to rock the gaming industry. This is why game designers often include bonus material that doesn't usually affect anyone's buying decision. This is why ANet throws in things like Wintersday, or tournaments. The whole reason titles were introduced is so people keep playing. 15K armour was there for that purpose as well.

And they have incentives for PvP as well. PvE does have rewards, perhaps more rewards than PvP does. Like I said, though, that's irrelevant to our discussion. But these PvP incentives are there and are mostly for people who keep at it, not for people who drop by every so often. If you don't care about pride, then never mind emotes, special armour, titles, weapon skins, rank, or even respect. If you're a casual players, PvP or otherwise, you can only expect to earn a small handful of these things. You still play the guts of the game though. With my job I can only really put in 3-5 hours a week on the game these days, and I don't expect to get all the titles.

Now to me Eisenhower's mother sounds like an idealist, more than a realist. I prefer my friend's mother who said, "you are my favourite son. Your brother's a bit of jerk." She said that in front of both of them. And she was right; my friend is going on to earning his masters, and his brother is still a fat lazy jerk. My father is a bit more fair, on the other hand. He says "I'm disappointed in all 5 of my sons. None of you turned out well." I'm not entirely sure what point I'm making there, but I think it's delightfully real.

Kool Pajamas · Aug 01, 2007, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Take heroes and hench out of all pvp. It's the only fair way.

Its player vs player, not Player&AI vs Player&AI.

Take out the ghostly hero too on maps where he is not necessary. His d-shot is so frickin annoying.

FrAnt1c² · Aug 01, 2007, 08:52 AM // 08:52

The ghostly actually has a purpose, killing him provides you with a nice morale boost

pork soldier · Aug 01, 2007, 09:01 AM // 09:01

I keep seeing complaints about this - these teams are easy fame or easy faction, what exactly is the problem?

Yes, they're annoying to fight against. Yes, they make you work for the win.

If you're losing, get better. If you're annoyed, get better.

In HA these teams provide a boatload of fame, you get a full run instead of a skip from the zaishen to the hall, and IMO that's a great thing.

Do people seriously think that either GvG or HA are going to get more competitive if heros vanish? What you're going to see are more FOTM builds (poop 'n thump, ritspike, ...anyone?) not a magic improvement.

bhavv · Aug 01, 2007, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by pork soldier

Do people seriously think that either GvG or HA are going to get more competitive if heros vanish? What you're going to see are more FOTM builds (poop 'n thump, ritspike, ...anyone?) not a magic improvement.

I was going to say this earlier but forgot to give it a mention - There are far worse things in HA that need sorting out before heroes, pretty much fotm builds like Rit spike and Hex spam, as well as 1v1v1 battles. Im not against kill counts in the slightest as all the leet players seem to be, but I am against 2 teams ganking 1 in 3 team battles.

Heroes in HA dont create any kind of imbalance, if you cant beat them you have other things to worry about then constant whining on forums.

I have never really been against any of Anets changes to HA, because for me they offered new ways of playing the game and required additional thinking beyond the 'Omg my same old (lame) builds dont work anymore /cry'.

Diddy bow · Aug 01, 2007, 01:54 PM // 13:54

/singed

we have HvH to watch bots fight...

czart · Aug 01, 2007, 03:03 PM // 15:03

/notsigned

If there is too many heroways in GvG, people will probably start to use often anti-builds and heroways will go away.

Heroes are very good if u have to quickly replace a missing player (for example AT or other tournament match) and u do not wish to lose at start because of "stupid" henchman or playing 7v8.

Probably now there are so many heroway teams because of Summer vacations - many guilds have few people to play. I've seen even top guilds playing with this build. This is observation about GvG. HA was always much more build-wars and heroway is just another one in collection to rt-spike, para-spike and others.

This is not PvP discussion thread, but here is so many long posts, so I'll add a few words for those trying to convice us that heroes are unbeatable.

Heroes have good AI, but in many points it's very "stupid". Just a few ideas. For example Olias casts tainted and does not carry of diversion. He can be catch up like a child. I have never catched a human tainted necro so many times during the GvG, even if he was from top 2000 guild. Heroes have problems with positioning, particularly if the team is moving (very often people forget about turning off a flag and you can easy kill hero standing alone).

We have played against heroway in GvG 3 times (3 times for sth like 20 games, so it's not tragedy, there is much more tabhex or melee pressure teams). First was terrible, we lost in a few minutes, but the last fight was until VoD (finally we lost, but it was not clear until the end who will win). Like in any build the key is turning off the key characters (for example turn off tainted by killing olias or using diversion and do not allow necros creating many minions - in this way you get rid of half enemy pressure).

We sometimes play HA with heroway if we do not have full team for GvG and any guests willing to play (from this point of view it's a pity HA turned back to 8 people, 6 was ideal for GvG guilds with not full squad today). Often after (or even before) fight opponents are calling us "noobs", and those who say it are playing ... rt-spike, para-spike or any other hated "noob" build.

fanelli · Aug 01, 2007, 11:17 PM // 23:17

/signed

It's nice when ppl tell "I created a new build and it works". But now 50% is playing the same boring build...
"Wow I copied a Herobuild and we pwnz0r a balanced team wich is making fun on vent" => Stop doing this plx

schelle espe · Aug 02, 2007, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by czart

/notsigned

If there is too many heroways in GvG, people will probably start to use often anti-builds and heroways will go away.

Heroes are very good if u have to quickly replace a missing player (for example AT or other tournament match) and u do not wish to lose at start because of "stupid" henchman or playing 7v8.

if u need to replace a player, ask in you'r alliance and they will be fighting to join you in gvg.