Curse

darkknightkain · Aug 26, 2007, 01:07 AM // 01:07

I am NOT talking about grind to max any titles nor powering up skills. Those are at least so far, optional, and you can still play the game as is without them.

I am talking about those forced grinds that the game won't even function or characters can't even proceed on with the game without.

As if Nightfall's grind until Sunspear Rank 7, and repeat that for every character, is still not bad enough

...
now Eye of the North introduces the same thing x4 !, and now you can't even talk to merchants without forced grinds

?

The COMPULSORY grinds and the OPTIONAL grinds should be SEPARATE !

Can't we go back to Factions approach? Nice separation between the COMPULSORY grind and OPTIONAL grind. 10000 Faction account-based is all you need for the Befriend quest. Those who like to grind can continue to do their own optional grinds to shoot for their own Kurzick/Luxon titles to show off, but the rest of the players just need that initial little 10000 Faction to proceed on with the story and it is done and good for all the characters.

The basic game functions and story progression should not be based on forced grinds. Optional grinds can stay as high as they like, but the compulsory forced portion should be reduced.

asa12 · Aug 26, 2007, 03:55 AM // 03:55

As a general rule I hate grinding so that part of GWEN is really dissapointing

SotiCoto · Aug 26, 2007, 04:02 AM // 04:02

If the grinds weren't there... most people would be completely done and finished with the preview content... about 1/3rd of the entirety of GW:EN already.

Admittedly though... the Norn Title grind seems to go fairly quickly. I'm at Rank 3 with only 2500 points left to go to Rank 4 (and can easily get that while just travelling through an area).

holababe · Aug 26, 2007, 04:04 AM // 04:04

I'm not in EOTN yet, but from what I've heard the grind is only bad once you reach a certain rank. People have said it's easy to reach r4 just by playing and questing. If that's true then I'm happy, because it's the same as NF - Sunspear Rank 7 is EASY to get if you always accept bounties and do a few side-quests.

Isileth · Aug 26, 2007, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

If the grinds weren't there... most people would be completely done and finished with the preview content... about 1/3rd of the entirety of GW:EN already.

Admittedly though... the Norn Title grind seems to go fairly quickly. I'm at Rank 3 with only 2500 points left to go to Rank 4 (and can easily get that while just travelling through an area).

Tbh I dont think adding grind is the soloution to adding length to a game. Much like with proph, you didnt have to grind at any point yet the game was a decent length. Now it seems (and I know GW:EN is just an expansion and meant to be shorter but it goes for nightfall and factions as well) that they add a bunch of time where you need to grind just to add a few hours of gameplay.

jkyarr · Aug 26, 2007, 04:20 AM // 04:20

There are some deeper gameplay mechanics involved with the GW:EN "grinds". It fits the storyline and lore for you to have to earn a reputation among these northern people. It makes that effort more tangible to players when some abilities are restricted. These facts make the restrictions you mention anything BUT a grind. Grinds are repetitive tasks that have no basis in the storyline or lore of the game... like the other pre-GW:EN titles you mention. There are substantive plot hooks that provide good storytelling and intrigue in GW:EN, which is, FYI, an expansion for HIGH LEVEL CHARACTERS. kwitcherbellyakin because you've found you have to work at something instead of it just being served up on a platter. That's the whole point! If you don't like it, go back to Pre-searing and play there. Leave the challenges of the north to the big boys. The kiddie pool is in Ascolon.

jkyarr · Aug 26, 2007, 04:45 AM // 04:45

I have to bring something up here. Y'all are working with the wrong understanding of what a grind is. You can't define it as the distance in effort between point/achievement A and point/achievement B. That's called a journey. Journeys typically consist of some sort of tasks. With gaming unless the number of instances where such tasks can be carried out are so few that the same encounters have to be reused, you don't really have a "grind". If you make your own choice to re-instantiate the same encounter repetitively then you are willfully making your own grind. When the storyarc, size of zones, and number of encounters are designed to allow you to progress through your objectives or tasks at an adequate rate (meaning it coincides with the timing of the story and plot-necessary events) then there is no inherent grind!

In this context, the complaint that you can't buy and sell from the merchants in northern towns initially just because you think you should be able to, FAILS. Why? Because the story provides plot reasons for you to be restricted, and it provides you a means to overcome the restrictions. That's design, not grind. Honestly who's going to whine because the story requires them to do something? Or did I miss the thread where some asked to be able to ascend in pre-searing? Why can't I just win the game without even getting my character out of bed? I mean geeze Anet! Getting my character to walk is such a grind! Fix it!

Don't even bother to delve into "Grind lengths vs game lengths" etc. Within the scope of the OP's post there isn't even a grind!

I challenge posters to give specific examples of tasks GW:EN required of them where the design forced them to re-instantiate the same, conquered encounters repetitively in order to complete a plot-essential-component of the game. To me, such occurrences constitute design flaws (in the form of, YES, a grind!) and should be addressed. Until you can post such a case, either open your mind to the experience the designers intended for you to have or quit playing it. Who knows? Maybe high level adventuring is not for you...

HayesA · Aug 26, 2007, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Getting rep points is really easy with a bit of questing, missions, and a bit of clearing zones. I sick and tired of poeple bitching about "needing to grind" to finish a campaign. I think it's there to A. Stop the runners (which is good.), B. Add a depth of charactor to the whole thing. (Which is, also, good.) C. Makes the end result even sweeter. After I worked my ass off to get to the Norn Consumables vender, the stuff he offered was pretty sweet.

I have no idea about the weapons guy, nor the armour guy just yet. But i'm hoping they'll be sweet as well.

Stop whining about making the game in a way that you cant rush through it in a day or two. Stop crying.

FenrirOfSleipnir · Aug 26, 2007, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkyarr

I have to bring something up here. Y'all are working with the wrong understanding of what a grind is. You can't define it as the distance in effort between point/achievement A and point/achievement B. That's called a journey. Journeys typically consist of some sort of tasks. With gaming unless the number of instances where such tasks can be carried out are so few that the same encounters have to be reused, you don't really have a "grind". If you make your own choice to re-instantiate the same encounter repetitively then you are willfully making your own grind. When the storyarc, size of zones, and number of encounters are designed to allow you to progress through your objectives or tasks at an adequate rate (meaning it coincides with the timing of the story and plot-necessary events) then there is no inherent grind!

In this context, the complaint that you can't buy and sell from the merchants in northern towns initially just because you think you should be able to, FAILS. Why? Because the story provides plot reasons for you to be restricted, and it provides you a means to overcome the restrictions. That's design, not grind. Honestly who's going to whine because the story requires them to do something? Or did I miss the thread where some asked to be able to ascend in pre-searing? Why can't I just win the game without even getting my character out of bed? I mean geeze Anet! Getting my character to walk is such a grind! Fix it!

Don't even bother to delve into "Grind lengths vs game lengths" etc. Within the scope of the OP's post there isn't even a grind!

I challenge posters to give specific examples of tasks GW:EN required of them where the design forced them to re-instantiate the same, conquered encounters repetitively in order to complete a plot-essential-component of the game. To me, such occurrences constitute design flaws (in the form of, YES, a grind!) and should be addressed. Until you can post such a case, either open your mind to the experience the designers intended for you to have or quit playing it. Who knows? Maybe high level adventuring is not for you...

AMEN Brother

He said it all.

Isileth · Aug 26, 2007, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by HayesA

Stop whining about making the game in a way that you cant rush through it in a day or two. Stop crying.

While we agree on the end result, having a longer lasting game, we disagree on the means.

Please note all figures im using here are picked at random its just to get my point across easily.

Game A
Total playtime = 20 hours
Total Grind = 5 hours
Actual gameplay = 15 hours

Game B
Total playtime = 20 hours
Total Grind = 1 hour
Actual Gameplay = 19 hours

Game C
Total playtime = 50 hours
Total Grind = 40 hours
Actual Gameplay = 10 hours

Which is the better game? C because it lasts longer? I dont want to be forced to grind something just to get on with the game. Not only that I dont want to pay to grind. Im paying to play the actual game not some fluff added to make it seem longer.

Its possible to make a game last longer simply by adding more content instead of adding more grind. In proph at no point did you ever had to grind to complete the game, yet it lasts as long, if not longer, than the other 2 games. Both of which include grind.

Witchblade · Aug 26, 2007, 08:34 AM // 08:34

/agree adding lotsa quests and stuff would be better than silly rank titles where u need 20.000.000.000 points to max em out at 3 points per hour of play. But, well... it's faster, easier to implement 4 of those titles than additionnal subplots, quests and mission who have to be quite original

Hyper Cutter · Aug 26, 2007, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkknightkain

As if Nightfall's grind until Sunspear Rank 7, and repeat that for every character, is still not bad enough

...
now Eye of the North introduces the same thing x4 !, and now you can't even talk to merchants without forced grinds

?

First, R7 Sunspear is incredibly easy to get (just do the area's quests and take bounties, and you're there).

Also, you can talk to merchants (and most traders), it's crafters that require a title to use. There is a difference, and hell, the NPCs even give you a reason why they won't help you...

Vinraith · Aug 26, 2007, 05:51 PM // 17:51

As with the Sunspear ranks, it looks like simply doing the quests (whcih you'd have to do anyway) and taking the occasional hunt will easily get you where you need to go. Then again I can't really understand all the complaints about "grind." As RPG's go, the grind in this game is extremely light (I'd argue too light, actually). I guess people just want everything for free.

HawkofStorms · Aug 26, 2007, 06:49 PM // 18:49

At least its not like Luxon/Kurzick where you have to jump from town to town if you ever find yourself on the wrong side and need to sell something.

Even if the OP's points have validity, he's a bit to abrassive.

Solar_Takfar · Aug 26, 2007, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Yes, the points needed to do the basic actions don't seem to be unfeasible by any means. They seem to be in line with the SS levels in NF, in that by just questing and playing normally you will reach medium-to-high levels. I'm fine with that. Besides, if you can't speak to a given merchant, you can always map away to someplace where you can. That's how it's been with Factions since forever, and it only takes a couple seconds to do.

So yes, I'm totally against grind, but I see no problem if the game simply requires the player to actually *play* the game (quests, exploration) in order to have access to its special benefits.

Div · Aug 26, 2007, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkknightkain

As if Nightfall's grind until Sunspear Rank 7, and repeat that for every character, is still not bad enough

...
now Eye of the North introduces the same thing x4 !, and now you can't even talk to merchants without forced grinds

?

You can get to (or pretty close to) sunspear rank 7 solely by doing the primary quests and actually remember to pick up blessings.

I haven't had a problem with ANY merchants in GW:EN not talking to me. The only ones that require high Norn title are the special items crafter, the armor guy, and the weapons guy. All 3 seem like privileges to me, not rights. You don't need them to continue on in the game.