Curse

D E C E P T I V E · Aug 21, 2007, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Life and this world have truly become sad if people have to turn to a video game to feel a sense of accomplishment and pride, and in my opinion that IS NOT and SHOULD NOT BE what video games are about. Feeling a sense of pride and accomplishment is good in things like getting A's in school, being good at what you do for your extracarricular activites wethere its football team or the band, and acheiving those things involvles alot of hard work. Video games are about fun and you shouldnt have to dedicate your life to them to have fun playing them. In fact I hope that the developers get away from the grind altogether, the skill grind, the title grind, the fame grind, and just make the game fun to play so people will play because they think it is fun and not because they want to achieve Rank 12 so they can feel like they are better than the majority of people ingame.

Honestly there are things that are cool about the title system but it really has alot of downfalls in it as well.

HA Rank/Fame Title for example.

This title is really awesome and I love the emote, the downfall of it is what people have turned it into. "Forming R9 SF Spike, need blah, blah, blah....meet under bridge title on" (And ive been away from GW for a while so I dont even know if SF is still viable there because all of the forms of grinding in the game have pretty much turned me off) But my point is, Like I really need to have spent 1000 hours or more getting rank 9 to understand how to spike. Its not that hard, and its a video game people, comeon. Also, just to let you know I have been playing GW over 2 years(spent the first year doing mostly PvE), and Im not complaining because I dont have any rank, Im not a rank 9 by anymeans, I dont have quite that much free time on my hands, but anyways, Im just saying what people have turned the titleing system into sucks.

It is very hard for new people to get into the game in PvP because of this, and with other titles becoming more important I think this will spread into the pve world as well. I have seen players turned down many many times when trying to play in HA because they dont have the required rank. They can join unranked groups there arent many unranked groups there, and not that it takes a rocket scientist to play on any team in HA but putting the unranked groups agianst R9 groups is very frustrating for the newer players and the groups dont stay together for long, and break up after 1 or 2 attempts.

Having the titles are good but they need to have less emphaisis placed on them in the community, and titles like this one need to not be so dependant on having an entire team of people in order to get. It would be cool if they could be individualized, points gained for successful tacticts used successfully by an individual on a team. For example, if you are a spike and you take part in a successful spike you get points for it that go toward your fame title. If you a monk and save a spike you get points for it, etc. Mesmers get points for sucessly maintaing hexes on targets, interrupting, etc. Basically, you would get points based on how well you play the role of any given character, or use a skill for its purposes.(Im not saying developing this kind of system would be easy)

PvE Titles:

PvE titles are good, but in order to prevent them from being turned into something ugly I dont think its a good idea to tie things like elite armors to them. Giving them each their own special emotes perhaps or pve useful benefits like the treasure hunter track has would be good.

Basically I think titles should be something to persue by your own choosing, and if you feel a sense of accomplishment by achieving a title in a video game to each his own, but they should not be a necessity or become a ingame status symbol that keeps people that play games because they are fun to do in free time from being able to do or obtain certain things ingame.

R!ghteous Ind!gnation · Aug 21, 2007, 05:11 PM // 17:11

It shows depth in character. True real life accomplishments are something to be valued too but looking at video games like all hobbies... there are people who have giant miniature train displays that they compete with... there is nothing wrong with showing that someone has been around long enough to get the fame to be rank 9 or whatever the questioned title is... In fact judging by the title of this thread... you yourself want the titles... you just don't want to do what it takes to get said title (whichever it may be). True there are some titles that are just retarded (sweet tooth etc.) but others show that a character has been around and has accomplished certain goals... don't hate because your not willing to play enough to get r9 or whatever.

Starsky-sama · Aug 21, 2007, 05:44 PM // 17:44

/sry confuzorz.

=> mmorpgs = "grinding" no matter how small it is is still "grinding". these types of gaming cannot escape it...

=> kinda sounds like a norm rant. /no offence.

=> the stuff posted feels like you were all over the place, like having a conversation with yourself, you say one thing and you kinda just answer it right after...

/I do see your point(s) at the end of it and on some other parts...maybe...I think...

/g'day.

WasAGuest · Aug 21, 2007, 09:20 PM // 21:20

I agree that any rewards beyond the title itself (the title being the reward) is a bad idea. In fact I do not like the fact that grinding out titles to get skills that can not otherwise be gained is not "fun" and adds a major grind feeling to the game; which really drags the game into the ground.

Graphik Desine · Aug 22, 2007, 01:05 AM // 01:05

this is one side of the story, to be the person who has no game playing time on their hands, but we must remember there is another side of the story that a lot of people cannot relate to--and that is the people that play the game 15+ hours a day.

the titles are there for the people that have made the game a huge part of their lives.

some people don't choose to play extracurricular activites, and some people have a lot of "at home time" like women/men who have kids at home and watch after them and play the game all day long. so the devs can't force people to go out and do things to "enrich their lives" and stop playing the game to be more like the people who don't have a lot of time on their hands to be "grinding."

i would know, because i am one of these people. and i represent proudly my decision (and other folks like me) to play guild wars all day long.

the titles are a very exciting thing for the people who like grinding. yes, because they accomplished something, but keeps them in the game. if there weren't titles, then we wouldn't have much to look forward to the next day to play the game and just leave it installed on the hard drive until the next expansion/chapter/game comes along.

and some people love to see how far they can go with titles, if they choose to display or keep hidden, what they've done.

what people make titles into is another story. if they want to be elitist and not accept unranked people into a r9+ party, then so be it. that is their problem. not yours. you don't want to play with them anyway (as you can find better people elsewhere who are MORE willing to play with you). just like in real life. you don't like what certain folks do, don't be their friends, or don't involve yourself with them. it's all about choice.

the title makes the person, and when they have become a fanatic, they have given the title a bad name. but they have really given themselves a bad name in the process, whether they see it or not :/

i don't see any problems with the titles. but i do see some problems with the people's attitudes--willing to cut an arm and a leg off to "prove to others that they are the best."

i have maxed many many titles, but i know that this is my personal goal gaining experience, not to compete with anyone else in the game. the titles have not made me yet, and i feel great knowing i don't discriminate because of (a) certain title(s).

ALSO
the titles also have a huge purpose in gwen and in gw2, so that is why so many people want to get what they can, because it will have some bearing on our future gaming life, as an individual ._.

Antheus · Aug 22, 2007, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

if they want to be elitist and not accept unranked people into a r9+ party, then so be it. that is their problem. not yours. you don't want to play with them anyway (as you can find better people elsewhere who are MORE willing to play with you). just like in real life. you don't like what certain folks do, don't be their friends, or don't involve yourself with them. it's all about choice.

In GW:EN, grind will determine how well you can play, since things will be title based. Don't have your rank high enough? Sorry, the area is too tough, spend another 4 months grinding.

Quote:

Like I really need to have spent 1000 hours or more getting rank 9 to understand how to spike. Its not that hard, and its a video game people, comeon. Also, just to let you know I have been playing GW over 2 years(spent the first year doing mostly PvE)

No, you don't. But people who did get there, did. Now to put two and two together: What kind of attitude can you expect from a person that spends so much time in a game?

This is like working at an assembly line. You do the same move over and over. In game, that's the only way to advance.

In life, the smart way to advance is to fire those people, and replace them with robots. Those are cheaper, work better and more reliably, and are much easier to maintain.

Think of it this way: In real life, you cannot become Allstars athlete by grinding long enough. You either have the skill, or you don't. Practice helps - but unless you're good enough from the start, you'll never be able to challenge top athletes, even if you spend your entire life "grinding".

This is a very wrong lesson games teach. If you do the same thing long enough - you will become good at it. This is completely wrong. Improving your technique, knowledge and skill is what makes you better, not continuously hammering the round peg till it fits into the square hole.

Graphik Desine · Aug 22, 2007, 02:55 AM // 02:55

if there were still no titles in the game, people would still be looking for "only experienced players plz" and cast out anyone who is new to [whatever].

titles or not, people are the same. so i would rather see titles and see that i have done something for myself, than show absolutely nothing for it. (and honestly, i look at everyone else's title that walks past me, because i want to see what they have done too.)

grinding isn't what the game teaches, it is what people make it into that were not the developers. it is human nature to aim to be the best. the game is supposed to be fun, and was developed out of fun, as games should be. if you don't find grinding fun, or don't feel that it will do anything for your character/account, then don't do it. simple as that. but keep that attitude alive that grinding isn't necessary for your groups, so do not ask for specific titles. and keep the tradition going.

of course those who believe the grinding/playing is improving their technique, then they may believe that, and it may be doing something for them to help them get in the groove of things. im not trying to joke around, but people learn sometimes thru doing things a lot, then deviating from that and becoming confident elsewhere. but confidence does not mean elitist in my definition.

[some people can choose to 321 spike until r9 hero, then go play "real" balance because 321 is too boring/unskilled/not well rounded enough/whatever. ("real" balance in heroes ascent is looked at as more superior than spiking. spiking is just a way to get your "foot in the door"--but does not mean that people cannot play the game if they spike. whether or not one can play the game is all a matter of opinion, and in the end, your opinion of your own playing abilities should be the most important to you.)]

rank only matters in groups of people who lay the rank law down. but this is mainly heroes ascent that is the biggest problem. in pve it should not matter at all. theoretically. so there shouldn't be any complaints coming from the pve rank system department. nono---not even lightbringer for DoA.

there are enough groups that don't have a requirement, and remember anyone can always gain some confidence and start their own unranked whatever pve/pvp groups, but know exactly what skills they're looking for, despite rank and always be willing to help out a new player here and there.

maybe players should start realizing what they are doing and be more lenient. rarely do we find these people, so maybe there should be some sort of funny title that reverses the laws of elitism and the more Newbie one is at something, the better off they are

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

This is a very wrong lesson games teach. If you do the same thing long enough - you will become good at it. This is completely wrong. Improving your technique, knowledge and skill is what makes you better, not continuously hammering the round peg till it fits into the square hole.

Folken ~oOo~ · Aug 22, 2007, 11:38 AM // 11:38

/signed

Titles to show off : Yes
Titles on whose depends part of the games (like skills, items, or others things) : NOOOOOO !

D E C E P T I V E · Aug 23, 2007, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

I agree that any rewards beyond the title itself (the title being the reward) is a bad idea. In fact I do not like the fact that grinding out titles to get skills that can not otherwise be gained is not "fun" and adds a major grind feeling to the game; which really drags the game into the ground.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Bloodstone

To be honest I don't like the idea (grinding out titles for elite armor) a whole lot. Getting an armour piece as a reward for completing a series of quests or missions? sure. Having to grind out a max title - No thanks.

I think titles should be there as a small reward for people willing to put in the time to achieve them. They should not be a pre-requisite to getting actual items in the game.

The overall cost of an ascended armour set is enough of a barrier to the average player as is, why add yet another obstacle to obtaining nice armour? Isn't this game supposed to be about the fun and not grinding?

On a little aside - I think A-Net knew what they were getting into when they added titles to the game. A certain percentage of the hardcore GW players wanted something to show for the hours they were putting into the game, titles gave them that. However they must also know that offering more than a trivial reward for time spent could be a slippery slope - the more they start to reward time spent, the more people will demand it, and the more it slides towards being a bog-standard MMORPG.

I completely agree with both of you and want to add some things. One of the best things about GW was that it made it possible for people that are not (and do not have the time to be) "hardcore" gamers to get into MMORPG's without lacking any of the depth that other MMORPGs have and without being bogged down like other MMORPGs. GW still required a good amount of dedication to play. The level at which skills become maxxed can be obtained by everyone after a reasonable amount of time and I hope this is maintained in GW2 even if the level cap is not. For nearly 2 years GW was the only game I played because it does require alot of time to develop your characters and that was ok because its the only game I wanted to play.

The game is now taking a new direction because of the influence of the title system which is actually limiting its playability to those that are not "hardcore gamers" which has really turned me off and I think it will turn alot of other casual gamers off as well, which are probably the major majority of people that play the game. Shortly after the release eluding to the importance of titles in EOTN and GW2 alot of my friends played and worked on titles but after a while we simply got sick of the grind of it and most of my friends stopped playing, and werent on as much. I continued to play for sometime after, but recently have turned to other games to play in my spare time, although I do miss GW and what it used to be.

Rewarding the "hardcore players" who have the time to play this game for 8hrs a day or more is ok, but the reward should not be with special skills or items that other cannot obtained by anyone in the game in a reasonable amount of time. Its hard enough to get the 15K armor now, and it is a major factor for playing and developing your characters. Special emotes or benefits related to the title someway ingame should be enough of a reward. (Mini pets could be a good reward for max titles because they have no effect on gameplay or character development.) In some cases the emotes and titles themselves have already made the game so you can only play it if you are a "hardcore gamer" and it shouldnt be like that. Its not you you need to spend a gazillion hours playing in order to understand any HA team concept, or to be able to play effectively in certain PVE areas. In HA you cant even really play their unless you are rank 6 or higher unless you want to spend more time looking for a group than you actually do playing the game. On top of that you will be lucky if that group stays together for more than a single round. With all the emphasis being placed on titles this is going to extend into the PVE world as well. Groups are now starting to form in PVE areas requiring certain LB ranks, and I have seen people in AB areas requiring Luxon or Kurzick Ranks.

Like I said, I have been turned off of guildwars for a while now and havent really looked into what it takes to max out the luxon/kurzick skills in detail and dont know how reasonable it is to max these skills out, but I definitely agree with you that the titles themselves are kind of a slippery slope and any rewards beyond say the a title with maybe an emote and some useful benefit like the treasure hunter track has is definitely a very slippery slope.

I already pre ordered EOTN and will play it because it will bring GW, probably my top favorite game of alltime to an end. However if what I can do and obtain in GW2 is going to depend on me being a "hardcore gamer" and grinding out titles I and probably alot of people like me will not be buying it.

zamial · Aug 23, 2007, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Are we argueing over titles being good or bad with stuff tied to them? or is it that some people actually like to/or are able to play gw more and that those who choose not to play as much dont get the benifits?

Honestly, I see nothing wrong with the titles the way they are.They are bench marks to aim for, goals.....NOT required by anymeans.You dont need to use a sunspear or a kurz/lux skill to kill a specific or ANY enemy.They are a lil benifit for those that took the time to acuire a tremendos feat.If you dont like playing the game other than just to barely beat it in norm mode then why complain? Titles are 1 of the few things that WILL transfer from gw1 to gw2 and as I have no immediate plans to get a machine that will run gw2 when I do, I would like to think I'll get a lil bit of a bonus over the person that never bought/played gw1. play or dont makes no dif to me.

Also, the issue of not many people buying gw2 for this reason is a lil flawed.
people wont be able able to play gw2 as it is a vista/dx10 based game that requires expensive hardware to run,not to mention vista........

D E C E P T I V E · Aug 24, 2007, 12:22 AM // 00:22

I like the titles for the most part the way they are, but Im just saying that they do have a downside to them and thats all explained pretty well in the OP. They have become a required or limiting factor in some parts of the game, mostly due to an ignorant community however. Like I said, I love the fame/rank title but it really has hurt the game in a way. All of the syncing (leavers) going in RA hurts that part of the game. Why is it being done? Because people are placing so much emphasis on titles.

There is alot of talk of tying things to titles, items, skills, etc. This kind of thing will hurt the PvE community as well and already has started. I have seen groups accepting only R4 LB. I have seen people forming title based groups for certain rank in luxon/kurzick in AB.

I do like the titles, but I think placing more emphasis on them by tying things to them like skills and items would add even more problems. Reward them with emotes, special benefits, even mini pets or special weapons, but going to far with it could make things even worse. Also, I dont think that you have to fall into the hardcore category to get prestigious things or play in the elite areas of the game. The title should really be its reward itself.

Also when guildwars 2 comes out the hardware and software needed to run it will be much more common than it is now. They arent going to release a game that the majority of the gaming community cant run and therefore wont buy. I also highly doubt that it will only run on 1 OS when released.

Kool Pajamas · Aug 24, 2007, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Titles are not grind. You do not need to have a single title ever to play the game. If you don't need to do it, it isn't grind. It's a choice.

D E C E P T I V E · Aug 25, 2007, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Its a choice in the beginning, a year later it becomes forming R9 whatever, meet under bridge title on. Thats all Im saying. Thy do have a downside.

jiggerjay · Aug 25, 2007, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kool Pajamas

Titles are not grind. You do not need to have a single title ever to play the game. If you don't need to do it, it isn't grind. It's a choice.

hmm off the top of my head to get a decent rank in the below titles it requires a hell of a lot of grinding

luxon/kurzick friend
legendary defender of asc
sunspear title
lightbringer title
the 4 new eotn titles (there is no way you will get near max with the missions)
gamerpoint title
the hoh title.

Hyper.nl · Aug 25, 2007, 01:50 AM // 01:50

I don't agree with start post. 'Grinding' to a certain degree is something that should be part of any (MMO)RPG. Most important aspects are that it should not be insane, it should be rewarding, and there should be other things in the game that do not require grinding.

Example of a fair grind: The Lightbringer and Sunspear title tracks can be maxed in a reasonable amound of time spending with grinding in hard mode. While working on the titles, you also gain many drops in hardmode.

Example of an unfair grind: The Kurzick/Luxon titles just take too much time to max them. Even for an experienced player with quite some time it's very hard to max them.

WasAGuest · Aug 25, 2007, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamial

Are we argueing over titles being good or bad with stuff tied to them? or is it that some people actually like to/or are able to play gw more and that those who choose not to play as much dont get the benifits?

Let me help you here:

The last line should read like this instead of the obviously loaded version -

"or is it that some people actually like to/or are able to play gw more and that those who are unable to play as much dont get the benifits?"

Now ask this question:

A player of GW gets off from work, spends time with his/her family, helps the kids with homework and gets them off to bed. He/she now has about two hours max to play with friends. The group now works towards getting a title completed. They work on it for about a month and finally achieve the title.
Another player, with no family and no responsibilities holding them away from playing is able to work on multiple titles during this same month.

Each player spent a month working on the titles they could get, however the one without much of a life outside of GW is entitled to better or more unique gear?
IMO, the first person worked harder for his one title as he had to work around putting his priorities in order... his family came first as did his real life responsibilities. Therefore, he should be the one entitled to the more unique stuff, not the one that can play more. - This is where GW original plan of skill over time came in very well; and is where it fails now.
Titles do not measure anything other than time in their current form, and as such should not be the basis of rewards; unless (UNLESS), all levels of that same title can be held to the same level and quality of reward.

jesusrunz · Aug 25, 2007, 07:43 AM // 07:43

i don't get the title.

Fitz Rinley · Aug 25, 2007, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by R!ghteous Ind!gnation

... don't hate because your not willing to play enough to get r9 or whatever.

You completely missed the point. I don't want the PvP title. And what I detest about PvP is this exact elitism he is talking about - the: "You can't possibly be as good as I am you scum sucking maggot. How are your daddies any way, was their operation successful or you fall out the other side?" braggadocio that pervades PvP.

Further, the OP stated quite clearly that it is not a lack of ability or flexibility in play, but a lack of time because Real Life comes first. That may be something a great many of the tween-agers and below do not get.

It is a fact that PvP players use rank and title as a means to discriminate and exclude new players from getting both experience and mentoring. If getting LB points wasn't such a grind fest, like every other PvE title, I am certain the final missions would be the same way there: GLM, must be LB Rank 6 or better. Fortunately I finished the game with a friend and heroes, only two live people.

Also, and most important, the grind that has been put into the game is excessive for no reason. It is limiting play. It is eliminating fun and replacing it with work. There are times I leave the computer and go clean the bathroom. There is less grind scrubbing groute with an old toothbrush than there is in GWs.

Safora · Aug 25, 2007, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

Each player spent a month working on the titles they could get, however the one without much of a life outside of GW is entitled to better or more unique gear?
IMO, the first person worked harder for his one title as he had to work around putting his priorities in order... his family came first as did his real life responsibilities. Therefore, he should be the one entitled to the more unique stuff, not the one that can play more.

I disagree. Your choice was to have children. You know that you will have to devote less time to the things you enjoy outside of the family. Some of us did not make that choice and therefore have more time to devote to this. IRL someone who has 70 hours a week to devote to their job will most likely get promoted over someone who can only give 40 due to family obligations. That is the downside to having kids. If you make the choice to do so then you know other things will take a back seat. Not everything needs to be made "fair" in order to appease the "family' types.

jkyarr · Sep 06, 2007, 09:21 PM // 21:21

I agree that there are some annoying grinds in the game, but I don't think people in general have the correct concept of what a grind really is. Here's my perspective.

To quote one of my favorite people

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...97&postcount=5

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkyarr

What I think a grind is.

You can't define it as the distance in effort between point/achievement A and point/achievement B. That's called a journey. Journeys typically consist of some sort of tasks. With gaming unless the number of instances where such tasks can be carried out are so few that the same encounters have to be reused, you don't really have a "grind". If you make your own choice to re-instantiate the same encounter repetitively then you are willfully making your own grind. When the storyarc, size of zones, and number of encounters are designed to allow you to progress through your objectives or tasks at an adequate rate (meaning it coincides with the timing of the story and plot-necessary events) then there is no inherent grind!

In this context, the Defender of Ascolon Title Track is the biggest offender in the game. I do now, have always, and will forever despise the idea of rewarding this abuse of intended game design with a title track! I know Anet's policy is "play and let play", but it is ignorant of to blind yourself to the limitations of the design. While I agree such misuses of the game cannot be stopped, why encourage them with an in-game reward? At least the top rank of the title track should be something that shows what a mockery it all is, like, "I made Guild Wars my exploited bitch and all I got was this lame title track". Defender of Ascolon sounds like you understood something about how to play the game. When you earn this title your actions prove otherwise.

Alas thats enough about the DoA title. Its not the only title grind in the game, but it is the worst. Returning to my point about how to keep gameplay from becoming grinding, in those cases where the players are forced to rezone and farm the same encounters repeatedly, I think action is needed. Either scale back the title tracks so they coincide with the amount of unique content in the game, or create additional encounters/areas/mobs where title xp can be earned without having to repeat plot elements or map zones ad nauseum.

Consider my 2 cents shared ^_^