Curse

Julia-Louis Dreyfus · Sep 08, 2007, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect_Clarity

Your forgetting about the burning affect which makes rodgorts easily deal more damage!! Just more proof of how inept people here are.

burning in place of raw dmg=more time for monk to catch spike.
and eles arent ALL about damage. so stop comparing like that. sure the rest of the lines cant do as much damage, but what ELSE can fire do besides damage? if you make the rest of the lines do more damage, you will create a thread bitching about fire not having any defense,snares, or utility. so before you jump to insults, THINK

Winterclaw · Sep 08, 2007, 07:23 AM // 07:23

While I'd personally like to see the water line to get one or two decent damage spells, the lines are balanced in the sense of playstyle. If you want to be an ice mage that does damage, either grab a few fire spells or something else because you are going to have to deal with it like the rest of us.

That said, a snare, ward vs harm, and blurred vision can do wonders for your team. If you want to go 10/10/11 or 12/10/8 water is actually a decent complementary line. Even in PvE, monks tend to live longer when warrior mobs can't get to them or miss half the time. I mean if you BV the 2 dervs that are trying to wail on your monk, it's like the monk only has to deal with hits from one for 8-9 seconds.

In short yes I'd like to see every line have 3-4 good spike damage spells, they all have uses. Some like water and earth require a little more finesse than force meaning you can't act like a Mythbuster in a china shop.

Julia-Louis Dreyfus · Sep 08, 2007, 07:26 AM // 07:26

wooooo someone who knows what hes talking about, now i can sleep

FelixCarter · Sep 08, 2007, 07:31 AM // 07:31

With water, you can actually spike a foe after you freeze 'em. A Warrior going after your Monk is going to have some trouble if you make them go 66% slower and then start hitting them with hard-hitters.

[skill]Shard Storm[/skill] + [skill]Shatterstone[/skill] + [skill]Vapor Blade[/skill]

85+100+135+100 damage? I bet that Warrior's gonna pull away from that Monk and come after me instead. :P

Div · Sep 08, 2007, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect_Clarity

Funny how you dont actually prove that air can take out a single target faster than fire. I disagree, rodgorts invocation + arcane echo deals more damage to a single target than lightning hammer +other lightning spikes, due to the setting the enemies on fire and dealing more base damage. I've already explained how it deals more damage, but then you assert this as if I should just automatically believe it. Dont waiste my time with your assertions,

He doesn't need to prove it. Anyone who is experienced in GW knows that air has a much stronger ability to take down a single target in terms of spiking ability. Burning occurs over time, and is often turned into a healing source by restore condition, mend condition, etc.

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By "devastate" i hope you dont mean deal a lot of damage, as its damage pales in comparison to fire AOE spells.

By devastate he means you can combine it with 2 AoE nukers for more total damage effect than having 3 AoE fire nukers, because the enemies are much less likely to be able to run out of it. So yes, the damage output is higher when used correctly.

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This made me laugh. ALL of the elements have different strategies with them not just water. Fire should be FIRST focused on lighter armored enemies, and Ice on melee enemies that are running around...And lighting....fails..

Lightning fails? Says who? An inexperienced PvEr like you who can't see the grand scheme of things? I'd like to see your wammo try to attack through blind or use your gladiator's defense against cracked armor+armor penetration.

Hate to say it, but that guy was right. And you're wrong. Bye. lrn2play.

Winterclaw · Sep 08, 2007, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixCarter

With water, you can actually spike a foe after you freeze 'em. A Warrior going after your Monk is going to have some trouble if you make them go 66% slower and then start hitting them with hard-hitters.

[skill]Shard Storm[/skill] + [skill]Shatterstone[/skill] + [skill]Vapor Blade[/skill]

85+100+135+100 damage? I bet that Warrior's gonna pull away from that Monk and come after me instead. :P

That selection isn't so bad, but in GWEN I've found that foes tend to be a little more balanced and will be more likely to have enchantments on them. I also tend to follow up shatterstone with [skill]Glowing Ice[/skill] if only to get some E back.

FelixCarter · Sep 08, 2007, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

That selection isn't so bad, but in GWEN I've found that foes tend to be a little more balanced and will be more likely to have enchantments on them. I also tend to follow up shatterstone with [skill]Glowing Ice[/skill] if only to get some E back.

I haven't played GW:EN yet on my Hydromancer.

Great to know that Hydros get another E-management skill, though. I'm gonna replace my Vapor Blade with that skill now.

Perfect_Clarity · Sep 08, 2007, 08:06 AM // 08:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

He doesn't need to prove it. Anyone who is experienced in GW knows that air has a much stronger ability to take down a single target in terms of spiking ability. Burning occurs over time, and is often turned into a healing source by restore condition, mend condition, etc.

Burning gives basically -around -12 health degen a second, and its true monks can dispell it, but there's always awys to INTTERUPT such moves as that, and you can also easily set them on fire more than they can dispell it.

Quote:

By devastate he means you can combine it with 2 AoE nukers for more total damage effect than having 3 AoE fire nukers, because the enemies are much less likely to be able to run out of it. So yes, the damage output is higher when used correctly.

Yeah its good for support!! I already mentioned that water is encouraged to be support! Im saying that its dissapointing I cant at least deal DECENT damage, I'm not saying the damage it deals should be similar to fire. ALso, enemies die so quickly by fire that most of the time it doesnt even matter if their slowed, and PVE enemies dont even move much, unless you use scatter abilities, which I never mentioned anything about. Also, I intiially only adressed a couple abilities, I didnt care to turn this into a debate about ALL abilities. You can easily mix in the support abilities of water/earth with the damage abilities of fire, so it doesnt validate the damage abilities just because other abilities of their attribute are good.

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Lightning fails? Says who? An inexperienced PvEr like you who can't see the grand scheme of things? I'd like to see your wammo try to attack through blind or use your gladiator's defense against cracked armor+armor penetration..

aha, I'm half way to my glads title, dont be so quick with your assumptions. As I've already said, you can easily just mix the elements to have lightning/waters be your support while fire is your source of damage.

Mineria · Sep 08, 2007, 11:21 AM // 11:21

To the OP: Get into PvP before making such balance suggestions.
And don't call other people for noob if you don't got a clue about balance yourself

haggus71 · Sep 08, 2007, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Asking for Air to have more massive DoTS is like asking for more healing skills in the monk Smiting line, or for more bow skills in Wilderness Survival. If they wanted to have all the skill sets the same, there would be no separation. A good player knows how to set his skills for the situation. Wanna know some great areas for air spike? Got Masters HM doing Disney's Electric Light Parade with 2 Dual attunement Air Spikers. Perfect for nailing the mesmer turtles before they spam e-denial. Oh, and I know it tends not to be a good ref, but in the wiki one of four top Great ele builds? Dual attune Air spiker. For PvE. No great fire builds. Hmmm.

Halfway to Glad title? GG getting 12-13 winning streaks in RA.

Perfect_Clarity · Sep 08, 2007, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by haggus71

Asking for Air to have more massive DoTS is like asking for more healing skills in the monk Smiting line, or for more bow skills in Wilderness Survival. If they wanted to have all the skill sets the same, there would be no separation. A good player knows how to set his skills for the situation. Wanna know some great areas for air spike? Got Masters HM doing Disney's Electric Light Parade with 2 Dual attunement Air Spikers. Perfect for nailing the mesmer turtles before they spam e-denial. Oh, and I know it tends not to be a good ref, but in the wiki one of four top Great ele builds? Dual attune Air spiker. For PvE. No great fire builds. Hmmm.

Halfway to Glad title? GG getting 12-13 winning streaks in RA.

Never asked for more DOTS from air magic

. Never said they should be exactly the same and in no way was I insunating that . I was suggesting a slight modification that would help improve lightning in the role it's already suppose to have. I've done plenty of hard mode and I've done plenty of damage comparison tests in both pvp and pve, and I've tried out almost all the abilities. IN the end its more effective to use fire and then use another attribute like earth for defense and support. Rodgorts invocation is my primary damage spell and it easily out matches an ability like lightning hammer.
Also dual attunement works for fire too!

Thats nothing, I've easily gotten up t a 16 winning streak, making it into TA with my RA team. Anywas, its largley team based, so its not something that reflects individual skill necessarily.

MithranArkanere · Sep 08, 2007, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Lighting skills are 'faster' and may blind. You also can deal cold damage too with Air Magic interrupt and cause weakness

Quite versatile.

Angels Guidance · Sep 08, 2007, 03:14 PM // 15:14

You sound like a WoW'er useage of mage, mana etc and also the missunderstanding of everything being about damage. Your saying make all elements have the same purpose / damage, but why? Air isnt used like Fire, as Earth isnt used like Water, you need understanding and different logics when playing the 4 different elements.
No water doesnt do mass amounts of damage, but if it is used to snare a fleeing monk from the rest of his party then it gives the damage proposal to the rest of your team. From your messages it sounds like you are the only one who is doing damage.

the_wind · Sep 08, 2007, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Honestly, if you think Lightning Hammer/Orb is underpowered, just go into RA and try it out. 140 damage due to the penetration on a 60AL target, every two seconds. If the damage was actually augmented, it would go beyond pressure to being able to kill people in under 10 seconds from a distance, even with a healer. Couple that with blinding flash, and you there really seems to be no advantage to fire. Of course, if your facing PvE mobs/PvP idiots and they decide to mob your tank, then fire would clearly be better as that is it's niche. But I really see no reason to buff air magic.

As for water magic, the above poster's Ice shards, Shatterstone, vapor blade proves to be quite lethal as well, along with the ability to snare enemies. and please don't say you would go into fire/water/e-storage for the snare, that would just result in less damage and less snaring capabilities.

tenshi_strife · Sep 08, 2007, 05:48 PM // 17:48

OMFG i have seen 2 eles in here, first off op you are a war primary according to your account, and i have to listen to an ele who has been an ele for 2 years, ill say the same thing i always say......

*ahem*

STOP RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOING WITH MY ATTRIBUTES!!!!!!!

the separation of attributes on an ele with the different play styles was the most balanced and beautiful in prophecies, now its getting muddled and mixed thanks to complaints like this....

ok let me lay it down very simply, as others have said

Air = spiking, but thats not exactly true, air is about single target utility... Blind stops wars in their tracks and skills like [skill]blinding surge[/skill] can be reapplied so often monks have trouble keeping up, sure other things have blind but really can it even come CLOSE to an air ele, i dont think so. Also with it knockdown skills it is effective for starting spikes or kiting, sure fire has [skill]meteor[/skill] and [skill]Meteor shower[/skill] air has [skill]mind shock[/skill] [skill]gale[/skill] [skill]gust[/skill] [skill] shock[/skill] and i wont list the rest cause you get the picture, so air can use knockdowns FOR A PURPOSE where as fire uses it to annoy people at best. Also air has a keep weakness to apply some speed boosts and even a shadow step, air is about single target utility really not just spiking.

Water=snare is also kinda true but not really, water is a multi-target utility line, water snares are used quite often and are the best, earth has some snares but they are much harder to use than a good smack in the face with ice spikes or deep freeze. now water has aoe freeze and aoe hit prevention and aoe interrupts, water is a multi target utility, and it even has some heft damage cause i use water to destroy destroyers using [skill]vapor blade[/skill] and [skill]shard storm[/skill]

Earth is multi-target defensive utility, with wards to help allies, aoe knockdown to stop enemies, some snare to enable kiting, weakness and blind to mess with, and of course everyones fav the armor spells such as [skill]stoneflesh aura[/skill] and [skill]armor of earth[/skill] they also even have some serious dps such as [skill] Obsidian flame[/skill] but they are not about dps.

Fire on the other hand is all DPS all aoe and all blast the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO out of shit. there is basically 2 utility skills in the entire line, that is [skill]flame djinn's haste[/skill] and [skill]burning speed[/skill] and burning speed is laughable fire is dps thats it so yea OF COURSE its going to have the most damage cause it is seriously lacking in EVERY other field.

so as you can see ele are MOSTLY NOT ABOUT DAMAGE only one line in an eles arsenal is damage, the rest is utility, but players tend to focus on the DPS of fire and nothing else...... so please like i tell everyone who posts ele comments please please play an ele, and i mean REALLY play one, some ra, a lil of ha, and the beginning of pve doesn't count. please just think about what your talking about before saying it.

Curse You · Sep 08, 2007, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect_Clarity

Burning gives basically -around -12 health degen a second, and its true monks can dispell it, but there's always awys to INTTERUPT such moves as that, and you can also easily set them on fire more than they can dispell it.

You're going to be interrupting them with what, Meteor? Good luck catching a .25 second cast spell with that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect_Clarity

aha, I'm half way to my glads title, dont be so quick with your assumptions. As I've already said, you can easily just mix the elements to have lightning/waters be your support while fire is your source of damage.

Random Arena's is just barely PvP. Almost anything can win a fight. It's really just luck.

Even this build can get a glad point. http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/User:Fatigue/FrenzySmite

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect_Clarity

First of all, you never initially said you were JUST talking about spells with only one sec casting times, and furthermore nothing makes those spells that good, besides for if you need a quicker finisher, but fire has spells for that as well, and its not needed to have a full skill bar of them.

When I say that something is generally faster, I'm pretty sure that the casting times are exactly what I'm talking about. If one attribute has more spells with longer casting times, it is technically a slower casting attribute.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect_Clarity

Depends where your at actually as to what resistence they have, in nightfal and factions its usually always 50% reduction.

In those same areas, the casters also have higher than normal resistance. Therefore my point still stands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect_Clarity

Learn to MOVE your heros, noob.

You've never fought a group with snares have you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect_Clarity

Thats nothing, I've easily gotten up t a 16 winning streak, making it into TA with my RA team. Anywas, its largley team based, so its not something that reflects individual skill necessarily.

I've gotten 20 wins in a row, so what?

Winterclaw · Sep 08, 2007, 07:56 PM // 19:56

lol at the frenzy smite build.

Perfect_Clarity · Sep 09, 2007, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Honestly I look at all your posts and I see something stupid about all of your comments, showing a blatant ignorance.

[QUOTE]Honestly, if you think Lightning Hammer/Orb is underpowered, just go into RA and try it out.QUOTE]

I have dipshit, I already stated that. I'm not saying Lightning Hammer totally sucks, but its not as good as an ability like rogorts invocation for dealing damage, to single enemies INCLUDED, due to the setting on fire..

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As for water magic, the above poster's Ice shards, Shatterstone, vapor blade proves to be quite lethal as well, along with the ability to snare enemies. and please don't say you would go into fire/water/e-storage for the snare, that would just result in less damage and less snaring capabilities

Blah blah blah, Not even freaking talking about single target nukes for Ice, Im talking about skills thats main use are PVE, in pvp I cant complain about the single target cold attacks.. You can easily have ice as your secondary if you go fire as your primary, and some snares wont even really lose thier effectiveness, learn to try different things.

Quote:

You sound like a WoW'er useage of mage, mana etc and also the missunderstanding of everything being about damage. Your saying make all elements have the same purpose / damage, but why? Air isnt used like Fire, as Earth isnt used like Water, you need understanding and different logics when playing the 4 different elements.
No water doesnt do mass amounts of damage, but if it is used to snare a fleeing monk from the rest of his party then it gives the damage proposal to the rest of your team. From your messages it sounds like you are the only one who is doing damage.

I suggested only a couple abilities to have a slight increase in damage, an according to the majority's logic here, it just must follow that I'm wanting everything to have fire's role. I already stated in my original post that even with my suggestions for improvement, fire would STILL be doing more damage, it would be only a +20 damage increase to a couple aoe abilities that deal shit damage right now. Also I doubt the impact would be that significant in PVP, as generally people prefer signle target nukes in that, which would STILL do more damage than the aoe spells, have shorter cooldowns, and cost less mana.

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You're going to be interrupting them with what, Meteor? Good luck catching a .25 second cast spell with that.

I've used meteor plenty and have easily intterupted casters. A lot of times people cast constantly, and also if you have good timing like me you can do it at the perfect moment when you sense their about to cast an ability. Anyways I could just impliment other skills besides fire to intterupt them, and this would hardly decrease the effectiveness of fire, or of the intterupts.

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When I say that something is generally faster, I'm pretty sure that the casting times are exactly what I'm talking about. If one attribute has more spells with longer casting times, it is technically a slower casting attribute.

No shit your talking about the casting times, but you were just considering the one-sec casting times, and regarded everything else as trivial, YOu failed to mention the 2 sec casting time abilities and how fire has so many of them. ALso a lot of those one sec casting time lightning abilities aren't even used for damage, as I'm speicifically talking about.

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You've never fought a group with snares have you?

You never mentioned anything about snares, you mentioned a group of warriors attacking your monk, durr. Also, very few PvE enemies have snares (besides for the shiver peak area), so its not something to worry too much about, and also even with -66% ms your monk could easily move away in seconds and the monsters would just attack the next closest hero, which hopefully would be a tank if your smart. Having your Monk run is easily the better choice instead of taking 5-10 seconds to kill the enemies while its being attacked.

tenshi_strife, I'm not suggesting a radical change in the classes to make them all totally just damage orientated as fire is. Its true the other elements have more roles than dealing damage, but they do DEAL DAMAGE, and that is a role of thiers, even if it is a secondary role. Im not saying damage should be the main thing about them, and in fact Im content with the earth abiliities, but a couple of the ICE AOE abilities just deal ridiculous damage that, as i've stated 5 times already, deal little damage, even when damage is suppose to be a secondary role i cant be content with how little it is, and snaring in PvE is usually not even needed. REMEMBER, I'm talking about skills mainly used in PVE, not your usual PVP.

Div · Sep 09, 2007, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect_Clarity

Burning gives basically -around -12 health degen a second, and its true monks can dispell it, but there's always awys to INTTERUPT such moves as that, and you can also easily set them on fire more than they can dispell it.

aha, I'm half way to my glads title, dont be so quick with your assumptions. As I've already said, you can easily just mix the elements to have lightning/waters be your support while fire is your source of damage.

*ahem* PvE'r. If you really want any skill balance done, discuss it in the gladiator's arena because that's where Anet will pay more attention to skill balance. But then you'd just get ridiculed there...I can interrupt your rodgorts or lightning hammer too, so both do 0 damage. What's your point. Setting on fire takes a 1-2 second cast, a removal is 3/4 second cast. Much easier to remove than set on fire.

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Yeah its good for support!! I already mentioned that water is encouraged to be support! Im saying that its dissapointing I cant at least deal DECENT damage, I'm not saying the damage it deals should be similar to fire. ALso, enemies die so quickly by fire that most of the time it doesnt even matter if their slowed, and PVE enemies dont even move much, unless you use scatter abilities, which I never mentioned anything about. Also, I intiially only adressed a couple abilities, I didnt care to turn this into a debate about ALL abilities. You can easily mix in the support abilities of water/earth with the damage abilities of fire, so it doesnt validate the damage abilities just because other abilities of their attribute are good.

You're talking about NM PvE where monsters don't scatter as much. In HM your fire damage will be much less effective. Plus, who says every attribute line has to deal massive damage. An 80 damage deep freeze is decent enough damage for me...

It's like complaining how sword skills don't have the knockdown ability of hammers. Each is meant to do different stuff.

Until you bring this discussion to gladiator's arena section of the forums, I'll just consider you as not knowledgeable enough about the game to know what you're saying.

Curse You · Sep 09, 2007, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect_Clarity

I've used meteor plenty and have easily intterupted casters. A lot of times people cast constantly, and also if you have good timing like me you can do it at the perfect moment when you sense their about to cast an ability. Anyways I could just impliment other skills besides fire to intterupt them, and this would hardly decrease the effectiveness of fire, or of the intterupts.

Guess you've never fought me. I would just stop casting or interrupt you if I saw you using Meteor. Nothing with a 3 second cast time is an interrupt. At best Meteor is a snare or an annoyance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect_Clarity

No shit your talking about the casting times, but you were just considering the one-sec casting times, and regarded everything else as trivial, YOu failed to mention the 2 sec casting time abilities and how fire has so many of them. ALso a lot of those one sec casting time lightning abilities aren't even used for damage, as I'm speicifically talking about.

Wow, do you even read what people have typed? I said that Fire has more skills that take 2 seconds or longer. Even if I did include 1 second casting time spells, Fire would still have more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect_Clarity

You never mentioned anything about snares, you mentioned a group of warriors attacking your monk, durr. Also, very few PvE enemies have snares (besides for the shiver peak area), so its not something to worry too much about, and also even with -66% ms your monk could easily move away in seconds and the monsters would just attack the next closest hero, which hopefully would be a tank if your smart. Having your Monk run is easily the better choice instead of taking 5-10 seconds to kill the enemies while its being attacked.

Yes, because it's not like warriors have snares.

Oh wait...
[skill]Crippling Slash[/skill][skill]Hamstring[/skill][skill]Axe Rake[/skill][skill]"You're All Alone!"[/skill][skill]Desperation Blow[/skill][skill]Drunken Blow[/skill]

Besides, I said Melee, not warriors. Warriors, Assassins and Dervishes all fall under melee.

Oh and since when did you have to kill something if you snared it? I could easily just throw a slowing hex on a foe attacking my monk then go back to killing the enemy monk.