Curse

Perfect_Clarity · Sep 08, 2007, 02:56 AM // 02:56

I've been playing as a mage for awhile, and have probably tried out all the abilities in the first 3 games. I've inadverntantly realized that some abilities just simply dont compare in effectivness to others..

For starters, look at lightning hammer. It costs 25 mana, has a 2 second casting time, 4 second cooldown, deals about 100 damage with level 16 air magic, and ignores terrain obstacles. Some people might get the impression that I'm making it out to be a good abilitiy, but nothing could be further from the truth. IF you compare this ability to another ability that has simliar mana cost ,casting time, and cooldown, i.e. the factors that determine how often you can cast the ability, it becomes obvoiusly inferior. THe ability that I'm comparing it to is Rodgorts Invocation. They have a lot of simliarities to eachother, casting time, cooldown, mana cost, and both ignore terrain obstacles, however rodgorts Invovocation has some obvoius advantanges over Lightning Hammer. Rodgorts Invocation deals about 30 more damage, deals AOE damge, and though rodgorts doesnt peirce armor, it sets enemies on fire which probably makes it deal even more damage, even against heavily armored foes.

Suggestions for Balance: Lightning Hammer should probably deal more damage, seeing as it costs so much mana, and the damage it does is only towards a single target. It should at least deal a little bit more damage than rodgorts invocation. I dont think anything should be nerfed, or decreased in effectrivness, since the mage already has a tough time as it is dealing with the high magic resistence enemies.

AoE water spells like ice spikes and deepfreeze are lacking in damage when compared to fire aoe spells, fireball deals about 45 more damage than glacial spikes..Basically its encouraged to only use ice for support, so you can slow and occasionally blind the enemies, but just for those 2 benefits its hardly worth it, when you could just as well be setting enemies on fire perpetually and dealing 120 aoe damage.

Suggestions for Balance: I think the Aoe Spells should deal at least around 110 damage with level 16 ice magic, and perhaps decreasse the slow duration, since a 10 second slow isnt really needed if your casting slow spells every 2 seconds. Fire would still be better for damage too, since it deals more damage, and would set enemies on fire.

I'll comment more on other abilities later..

Curse You · Sep 08, 2007, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Water isn't based on damage, it's based on slowing hexes. You want damage, use Fire.

End of discussion.

ca_aok · Sep 08, 2007, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Lightning Hammer refreshes much more quickly. And the mana cost isn't usually prohibitive since people generally use it with either dual attunement or air attunement+GoLE.

Water is meant to snare, not damage. (Though there are damaging skills in the water line). It's primarily useful in PvP and Hard Mode, but certain water skills such as Deep Freeze can be used anywhere. As for a 10 second hex with 2 second recharge... you're meant to spread it to more than one target, not to keep using the skill on the same monster.

Perfect_Clarity · Sep 08, 2007, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ca_aok

Lightning Hammer refreshes much more quickly. And the mana cost isn't usually prohibitive since people generally use it with either dual attunement or air attunement+GoLE..

It refreshes one sec quicker, which isn't that special, and yeah the mana cost isn't too significant because of dual attunements, but that doesnt change the fact rodgorts invocation is so much better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ca_aok

Water is meant to snare, not damage. (Though there are damaging skills in the water line). It's primarily useful in PvP and Hard Mode, but certain water skills such as Deep Freeze can be used anywhere. As for a 10 second hex with 2 second recharge... you're meant to spread it to more than one target, not to keep using the skill on the same monster.

If its an AOE spell, as were talking about, its easy to slow hex all the monsters your fightning with just one spell, like deepfreeze. I said myself your encourged to use ice for slowing, but the point I'm making is that its NOT WORTH IT, only against certain enemies is it really effetive.

HawkofStorms · Sep 08, 2007, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Spikeablity. Nuff said.
That's why the skills you point operate as they do.

Curse You · Sep 08, 2007, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect_Clarity

If its an AOE spell, as were talking about, its easy to slow hex all the monsters your fightning with just one spell, like deepfreeze. I said myself your encourged to use ice for slowing, but the point I'm making is that its NOT WORTH IT, only against certain enemies is it really effetive.

If used properly, Deep Freeze can help you devastate almost any foe. It's all a matter of knowing where and when to cast it.

Water is the thinking person's element. Unlike the other 3 elements, you have to be continuously monitoring which target would be more strategical to hit. You can't just spam your spells and expect a victory every time.

The Lurch · Sep 08, 2007, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Ok, heres the breakdown for an elementalist.

Air: Is for SPIKING OMG OMG OMG OMG!!!!!!11!2!!oneone! NOT NUKING! An expert Air Spiker can kill any one single target faster then a fire AoE mage can, IMO. Thats what Air is for, spiking, nothing else.

Water: Mostly used for HM and PvP. Snares help keep enemies in AoE based skills (like Maelstrom if your going straight ice, or for an Ice/Fire build, savannah heat is extremely nice). As others before me have said, you have to spread out your skills to hit different targets, not just sit there and spam it on a single target.

Earth: Earth is mainly support, though it has its damage as well). Wards help enormously in both PvP and PvE, and the PBAoE knockdown/damage skills are also incredibly nice for a defensive build. Earth is primarily defensive.

Fire: Fire is for nuking purposes. That means AoE, hitting more than one target, and setting DoTS off. Firecan almost be easily negated by a simple tactic-spreading out. When targets are far apart, a Fire Ele is in a bad position. He can no longer use his devastating AoE skills to his advantage, and is forced to attempt a spike if he wants to kill people (Air > Fire as far as that goes)

So no, Lightning Hammer, Deep freeze, and Rodgort's Invocation are fine. Perfectly fine

Perfect_Clarity · Sep 08, 2007, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Lurch

Ok, heres the breakdown for an elementalist.

Air: Is for SPIKING OMG OMG OMG OMG!!!!!!11!2!!oneone! NOT NUKING! An expert Air Spiker can kill any one single target faster then a fire AoE mage can, IMO. Thats what Air is for, spiking, nothing else.

Fire: Fire is for nuking purposes. That means AoE, hitting more than one target, and setting DoTS off. Firecan almost be easily negated by a simple tactic-spreading out. When targets are far apart, a Fire Ele is in a bad position. He can no longer use his devastating AoE skills to his advantage, and is forced to attempt a spike if he wants to kill people (Air > Fire as far as that goes)

So no, Lightning Hammer, Deep freeze, and Rodgort's Invocation are fine. Perfectly fine

Funny how you dont actually prove that air can take out a single target faster than fire. I disagree, rodgorts invocation + arcane echo deals more damage to a single target than lightning hammer +other lightning spikes, due to the setting the enemies on fire and dealing more base damage. I've already explained how it deals more damage, but then you assert this as if I should just automatically believe it. Dont waiste my time with your assertions,

Quote:

If used properly, Deep Freeze can help you devastate almost any foe. It's all a matter of knowing where and when to cast it.

By "devastate" i hope you dont mean deal a lot of damage, as its damage pales in comparison to fire AOE spells.

Quote:

Water is the thinking person's element. Unlike the other 3 elements, you have to be continuously monitoring which target would be more strategical to hit. You can't just spam your spells and expect a victory every time.

This made me laugh. ALL of the elements have different strategies with them not just water. Fire should be FIRST focused on lighter armored enemies, and Ice on melee enemies that are running around...And lighting....fails..

Vermilion · Sep 08, 2007, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Don't buff lightning hammer. Yeah.

FelixCarter · Sep 08, 2007, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Fire is the damage dealer of GW. The hotspot of everything that is "OMGWTFBBQ". This is the element that most elementalist go for. If you don't wield fire, you'll be lucky to get into a team.

Air costs quite a bit for just 25% armor penetration... Yeah, it's good for spikes, but Fire is better for spiking by far. You'll rarely see an Areomancer. Ever.

Water is very strategic. Slowing down enemies and inducing mass-hexes upon the enemy is what this element focuses on the most. There is one or two skills that can do some nice damage, though you'll probably never find use for them. Hydromancers are also moderately rare to see. (this is what my elementalist is)

Earth is the defence of the elements. While they have a few damaging attacks, the damage is often lacking even compared to Air. Unless someone is looking for a geomancer, don't plan on getting into any groups for a couple months.

The elements are balanced. The GW players are not.
I would suggest you choose the element you like and be prepared to switch to Fire. Air, Water, and Earth are frowned upon and it's unlikely you'll get into many groups if you only focus on them. Teams nowadays want damage, not light shows.

Curse You · Sep 08, 2007, 05:56 AM // 05:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect_Clarity

Funny how you dont actually prove that air can take out a single target faster than fire. I disagree, rodgorts invocation + arcane echo deals more damage to a single target than lightning hammer +other lightning spikes, due to the setting the enemies on fire and dealing more base damage. I've already explained how it deals more damage, but then you assert this as if I should just automatically believe it. Dont waiste my time with your assertions,

You clearly missed some basic facts. Fire is not spike damage for two reasons.
1. Generally long casting times
2. Foes can kite DoT spells

Air on the other hand has generally short casting times and has no DoT spells.

As well, Air can cause several conditions (blind, weakness, cracked armor) as well as knockdown. The best Fire can do it burning and damage, which isn't always the most effective route.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect_Clarity

By "devastate" i hope you dont mean deal a lot of damage, as its damage pales in comparison to fire AOE spells.

Elementalists aren't *gasp* all about damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect_Clarity

This made me laugh. ALL of the elements have different strategies with them not just water. Fire should be FIRST focused on lighter armored enemies, and Ice on melee enemies that are running around...And lighting....fails..

Frankly when it comes to Fire, it really doesn't matter most of the time. Sure you should attack casters first, but any player with a brain already knows to do that. Most Fire skills deal a substantial amount of damage to all foes, especially when they cause burning. As such, you usually don't have to think very much before casting.

However, when you're using water, slowing down an enemy caster is usually pointless unless using a DoT spell. Alternately, using Maelstrom on a group of warriors isn't going to do much. You have to actually be smart with Water skills, you can't just spam them like Fire.

Judging from the knowledge you have shown here, you obviously don't quite get elementalists.

Perfect_Clarity · Sep 08, 2007, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

You clearly missed some basic facts. Fire is not spike damage for two reasons.
1. Generally long casting times
2. Foes can kite DoT spells

Air on the other hand has generally short casting times and has no DoT spells

You fail. Fire magic has plenty of spells with sort casting times, which deal massive damage and that are aoe. ALso you fail to adress rodgorts invocation, which clearly owns any lightning spell out there.

Quote:

As well, Air can cause several conditions (blind, weakness, cracked armor) as well as knockdown. The best Fire can do it burning and damage, which isn't always the most effective route.

You must not use fire much, as your forgetting about the other very improtant thing fire can do, KOCKDOWN.

Quote:

Frankly when it comes to Fire, it really doesn't matter most of the time. Sure you should attack casters first, but any player with a brain already knows to do that. Most Fire skills deal a substantial amount of damage to all foes, especially when they cause burning. As such, you usually don't have to think very much before casting.

Fire deals about 50% less damage to warriors. SHows how much you know.. Aiming at casters is obviously the better tactic, so no you dont just spam the abilities at whoever if you want to be most effective.

Quote:

However, when you're using water, slowing down an enemy caster is usually pointless unless using a DoT spell. Alternately, using Maelstrom on a group of warriors isn't going to do much. You have to actually be smart with Water skills, you can't just spam them like Fire.

Its common sense as to what you would want to use water spells on first, there is little strategy behind it.

Juding by your ignorance on numerous of things, you really dont understand the elements. I swear.. this site is full of trolls unable to accept the obvious.

Julia-Louis Dreyfus · Sep 08, 2007, 06:35 AM // 06:35

yeah either ignorant trolls or, the fact that you aren't listening to what everyone is trying to say.
find a fire equivalent to blinding surge, wards, water trident, and icy shackles. if those exists then
something needs to be balanced.

random stupid data:
air and fire both at 12
60ar target-lightning orb 108 dmg
rodgorts 99
80ar-lightning orb 82
rodgorts 70

100ar-lightning orb 64
rodgorts 50

sure rodgort's is AOE and causes burning, but Orb costs LESS and hits a single target for more. which one would you rather aid a spike in?
oh and fire has almost ZERO utility, all straight dmg. lets see a fire ele shut down 2 melee enemies while also spiking a target

Curse You · Sep 08, 2007, 06:43 AM // 06:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect_Clarity

You fail. Fire magic has plenty of spells with sort casting times, which deal massive damage and that are aoe. ALso you fail to adress rodgorts invocation, which clearly owns any lightning spell out there.

Ever heard of generalizations? Air has 7 spells that take 2 seconds or longer to cast, while Fire has 14 spells that take 2 seconds or longer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect_Clarity

You must not use fire much, as your forgetting about the other very improtant thing fire can do, KOCKDOWN.

You're right about me not using Fire very much. I dislike the fact that the attribute has no defensive ability whatsoever. Sure Fire can knockdown, but how well can Meteor be used to actually interrupt someone?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect_Clarity

Fire deals about 50% less damage to warriors. SHows how much you know.. Aiming at casters is obviously the better tactic, so no you dont just spam the abilities at whoever if you want to be most effective.

You're information is incorrect. Most monster warriors only have 80 armour vs. Elements, which means they take 30% less, not 50%. When my monk is being attacked by a bunch of melee attackers, I'm not going to just sit there hoping the monk will be able to kite them, I'm going to do my best to slow/stop the melee attackers so that my monk can get away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect_Clarity

Its common sense as to what you would want to use water spells on first, there is little strategy behind it.

So I'll just spam Water Trident at a stationary caster, while a warrior runs by me, chasing my monk? Or maybe I'll just Maelstrom that W/R, since Maelstrom does so much damage...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfect_Clarity

Juding by your ignorance on numerous of things, you really dont understand the elements. I swear.. this site is full of trolls unable to accept the obvious.

Loving the irony. Elementalists are not in need of a buff or nerf. It is you who is unable to accept the obvious.

PS. I'd love to see you do HA then tell me that Water magic is useless.

FelixCarter · Sep 08, 2007, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julia-Louis Dreyfus

sure rodgort's is AOE and causes burning, but Orb costs LESS and hits a single target for more. which one would you rather aid a spike in?

*Technically* - to play devil's advocate - Rodgort would be better.
You do a good amount of damage, cause burning, and make it so the Monk has to focus on many targets rather than one while you proceed with the spike.

However, using Lightning Orb would cause a little more damage instantly. But if the Monk catches it in time (which is possible), then you'll have to re-spike.

I don't play any PvP, so correct me if I'm wrong. But, as a Monk, Rodgort is more of a threat than Lightning Orb for me.

linh · Sep 08, 2007, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Lightning Hammer is in Air Magic line. Rodgort is in Fire Magic line. When you choose an ele attribute line, you use other skills on same attribute as well, not only that single skill.
So plz stop comparing each single skill of different attribute line. Think about it.

Curse You · Sep 08, 2007, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixCarter

*Technically* - to play devil's advocate - Rodgort would be better.
You do a good amount of damage, cause burning, and make it so the Monk has to focus on many targets rather than one while you proceed with the spike.

However, using Lightning Orb would cause a little more damage instantly. But if the Monk catches it in time (which is possible), then you'll have to re-spike.

I don't play any PvP, so correct me if I'm wrong. But, as a Monk, Rodgort is more of a threat than Lightning Orb for me.

One thing though, Burning doesn't stack. The burning would only last 3 seconds after the spike, unless someone starts wanding the person.

Perfect_Clarity · Sep 08, 2007, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julia-Louis Dreyfus

random stupid data:
air and fire both at 12
60ar target-lightning orb 108 dmg
rodgorts 99
80ar-lightning orb 82
rodgorts 70

100ar-lightning orb 64
rodgorts 50

Your forgetting about the burning affect which makes rodgorts easily deal more damage!! Just more proof of how inept people here are.

Quote:

yeah either ignorant trolls or, the fact that you aren't listening to what everyone is trying to say.
find a fire equivalent to blinding surge, wards, water trident, and icy shackles. if those exists then
something needs to be balanced.

I never said fire can perform all roles, so why metnion blidning surge, or any of those abilities? Im comparing DAMAGE SPELLS, and blinding surge works on one enemy, its good for pvp, but only MODERATLEY GOOD in pve.

Quote:

Ever heard of generalizations? Air has 7 spells that take 2 seconds or longer to cast, while Fire has 14 spells that take 2 seconds or longer.

First of all, you never initially said you were JUST talking about spells with only one sec casting times, and furthermore nothing makes those spells that good, besides for if you need a quicker finisher, but fire has spells for that as well, and its not needed to have a full skill bar of them.

Quote:

You're information is incorrect. Most monster warriors only have 80 armour vs. Elements, which means they take 30% less, not 50%. When my monk is being attacked by a bunch of melee attackers, I'm not going to just sit there hoping the monk will be able to kite them, I'm going to do my best to slow/stop the melee attackers so that my monk can get away.

Depends where your at actually as to what resistence they have, in nightfal and factions its usually always 50% reduction.

Learn to MOVE your heros, noob.

Quote:

You're right about me not using Fire very much. I dislike the fact that the attribute has no defensive ability whatsoever. Sure Fire can knockdown, but how well can Meteor be used to actually interrupt someone?

Yeah probably why you spout out so much false information. Its called Mixing Fire with other elements, and it hardly sacrafices your attribute points; you could easily have earth magic at 10 and have fire magic at 15.

Water magic isnt useless, I just think the SLOW spells are underbalanced, as the slow fails to compensate for the lack of damage , since slowing an enemy is only good in certain conditons, and most of the time the enemies aren't even moving that much, or die before moving that much with fire spells.

Julia-Louis Dreyfus · Sep 08, 2007, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixCarter

*Technically* - to play devil's advocate - Rodgort would be better.
You do a good amount of damage, cause burning, and make it so the Monk has to focus on many targets rather than one while you proceed with the spike.

However, using Lightning Orb would cause a little more damage instantly. But if the Monk catches it in time (which is possible), then you'll have to re-spike.

I don't play any PvP, so correct me if I'm wrong. But, as a Monk, Rodgort is more of a threat than Lightning Orb for me.

well, you're semi-right. depending on the team your against, rodgort's will definately be better to spike the team if they are clumped together. and i wouldnt really count in burning as part of the spike, simply because when spiking you rely on a quick kill, not waiting for them to burn to death

FelixCarter · Sep 08, 2007, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

One thing though, Burning doesn't stack. The burning would only last 3 seconds after the spike, unless someone starts wanding the person.

I meant that all the nearby people would also take the damage and be set on fire, making it harder for the Monk to recover quickly. Even then, 7 pips or Health Degeneration during a spike is the last thing I want to see as a Monk. I suppose the burning would just be intimidating, more than damaging.

That's the only reason I see Radgort as being more threatening than Lightning Orb during a spike: the damage to multiple people and the sudden but short health degen.

If you have one Elementalist do Rodgort and one do Lightning Orb, though... That would be devastating to the opposing Monk, methinks.

But, like I've already said, this is from a PvE point of view.