Curse

jayce · Oct 02, 2007, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Mark of Subversion

energy:10
activation:2
recharge:30

Hex Spell. For 6 seconds, the next time target foe casts a Spell that targets an ally of that foe, the Spell fails and you steal up to 10...76...92 Health from that foe.

for the life of me, i can't understand why this skill is so restricted in terms of usage. for a hex, it has a short duration and perhaps an average energy cost. considering the damage, thats not the real concern. what bothers me is the lengthy recharge and the fact that it only affects spells that target an ally of the target foe. its clear that this is suppose to be an interupt skill or at the very least a deterrent, but because of its description, it has to be the one of the worst interupt skills in the game. we all know that its best used against monks and perhaps ritualists. but thats it. i believe that this skill could use a buff, but at the same time, use a nerf as well to offset the buff. maybe they could go about one of these options.

change the functionality to affect all spells and:

1. decrease the recharge
2. decrease the recharge and increase the cost
3. decrease the recharge, decrease the activation and increase the cost
4. decrease the recharge, decrease the activation and decrease the damage
5. decrease the recharge, decrease the damage, decrease the activation and increase the cost

no recommendations for the duration as i believe that its fine the way it is now. but im really more interested in others opinion. am i onto something or do i just feel alone on this one. if so, it would be a shame, it has the heart of a good skill.

btw, i like option 5 the most under the most ideal conditions.

Jayce Of Underworld

Curse You · Oct 02, 2007, 01:57 AM // 01:57

I like it the way it is. It's a necromancer version of [wiki]Shame[/wiki].

Kale Ironfist · Oct 02, 2007, 02:14 AM // 02:14

It's the health version of Shame, but it sucks because energy is far more important than health in terms of the effect each has. Because of that comparison, Mesmers were probably supposed to use it, balanced with Mantra of Recovery so as to not throw these off far too often.

Raising the health stolen would make it a better skill without impacting the rest of the game too much. Option 5 would kill the skill off completely, as it wouldn't be worth using due to increased cost. Option 4 leads to MoR abuse, just like Diversion, only it is much weaker, and probably still wouldn't be worth using.

The biggest problem is that it is in Blood Magic. The line is weak compared to other Necromancer attribute in PvP, and most if it is geared towards single target damage with no real utility. In PvE, it has no good AoE, but can reliably aid in taking down single targets. Orders is basically the best team synergistic skills the line offers, and a few other skills are best used without focusing too much on Blood (Strip Enchantment, Awaken the Blood).

lishi · Oct 02, 2007, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayce

[i]Mark of Subversion

for the life of me, i can't understand why this skill is so restricted in terms of usage.

welcome on the wolderfull world of gw skills.

90% of them completly suck.

the only reason i see why is because it make easier for a.net to keep the game balanced.

jayce · Oct 02, 2007, 04:40 AM // 04:40

an interesting point kale in reguards to stealing energy over health, but you said it yourself, its weak because its in the blood magic attribute. i do not believe blood is that weak personally. option 4 leads to MoR abuse? well i would agree to a certain extent. in fact, all the options because of the reduction in recharge could potenially lead to MoR abuse. for that reason alone is why i suggested an increase in cost of using that spell in 3 out of the 5 options. you mentioned that an increase in cost would kill the skill. again, i do not think so. but it may very well keep it out of the hands of players using necromancers as a secondary. its not like they would any way, because i can't recall the last time i actually saw another profession running blood skills as a secondary. with a 6 second duration, i would be content with a 15 (15 energy cost) to 20 second recharge. and thats only because it is a life-stealing skill. that, with the ability to affect all spells, would make this skill much more apealling. i run a blood necromancer. i have been for quite some time. of all the blood magic skills, this is the only one that just doesn't fit the frame considering that one can gain health and a lot more of it just as fast as one actually loses health. a 30 second recharge offers no real pressure from this hex. one would have to cast this spell when a target is dying to show any real effect.

Jayce Of Underworld

Skyy High · Oct 02, 2007, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Jeez, it's a mesmer skill in a necro att line, it better be a bit underpowered compared to one of the best interrupting classes. It's still one of the only ways to reliably stop a 1/4 cast healing spell, very useful in PvE to get a pesky monk or rit healer down.

Div · Oct 02, 2007, 06:04 AM // 06:04

It was a strong skill when used on blood necromancers in builds that have something like a SV necro...otherwise blood is so rarely used that no one looks at MoS.

I'd like to see the life steal increased slightly, especially at lower blood magic levels to promote a mixed class use somehow...

Kale Ironfist · Oct 02, 2007, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayce

an interesting point kale in reguards to stealing energy over health, but you said it yourself, its weak because its in the blood magic attribute. i do not believe blood is that weak personally. option 4 leads to MoR abuse? well i would agree to a certain extent. in fact, all the options because of the reduction in recharge could potenially lead to MoR abuse. for that reason alone is why i suggested an increase in cost of using that spell in 3 out of the 5 options. you mentioned that an increase in cost would kill the skill. again, i do not think so. but it may very well keep it out of the hands of players using necromancers as a secondary. its not like they would any way, because i can't recall the last time i actually saw another profession running blood skills as a secondary. with a 6 second duration, i would be content with a 15 (15 energy cost) to 20 second recharge. and thats only because it is a life-stealing skill. that, with the ability to affect all spells, would make this skill much more apealling. i run a blood necromancer. i have been for quite some time. of all the blood magic skills, this is the only one that just doesn't fit the frame considering that one can gain health and a lot more of it just as fast as one actually loses health. a 30 second recharge offers no real pressure from this hex. one would have to cast this spell when a target is dying to show any real effect.

Jayce Of Underworld

The reason why Option 4 would lead to MoR abuse (IF the change made it worth bringing) is because you could throw it up on recharge, forcing the opposing Monk or so to take a hit to their health quite often. It's not that strong on the health steal aspect, but when you consider that it also STOPS THE SPELL from being cast, this would create Mesmers that shutdown practically permanently without Diversion. Increasing the cost without improving the skill would mean even Necromancers would shun it, because the initial cost is too high for the effect. Every other profession wouldn't run it because they can't raise Blood high enough to be worth the higher energy, and Shame is better in almost every way. As for the comment on running blood as a secondary, I think you misunderstand. The point was that the build NEVER focuses on blood magic, but as an aside, to improve your chances of victory (like the above Strip Enchantment, Awaken the Blood for Curses builds, etc). As for pressure? Obviously the recharge is there so that you think about when you use it. If they are low on energy (through your earlier Shame, or just plain forced to heal too often), then this will take away health, forcing more energy to be expended to patch it up. Basically, it's there so that it is an opportunistic skill that also prevents spells from being cast, not an on demand health steal. But Shame is better for that. Reduce the recharge, and it becomes dangerous, since it can stop more spells than before. Especially when combined with Mantra of Recovery.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

It's still one of the only ways to reliably stop a 1/4 cast healing spell, very useful in PvE to get a pesky monk or rit healer down.

Taking away their energy is better than taking away a chip of their health which they're going to use their next heal to patch up. Unless of course, you bring both on a Mesmer. Or, better yet, you drop a Defile Flesh on them. Who cares if they get the heal off, if it's not going to heal enough to save its life?

glountz · Oct 02, 2007, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Use it on a Mantra of Recovery angorodon's gaze mesmer.

jayce · Oct 02, 2007, 01:51 PM // 13:51

im a little curious kale. while MoS would stop a spell, i do not think that it would be that dangerous of a spell. now that you mentioned it, Diversion is a lot more dangerous than MoS could ever be as it can take a skill out of your bar for about a minute or longer. while Diversion may not stop a skill from casting, the effects of it is far more damaging than, eh losing health quite often. in the perfect situation, you could end up being down 3 or 4 skills. because i would like to see MoS changed, i am not trying to create an imbalance. and because im suggesting reducing the recharge, you would almost have to increase its cost just to deter potential abuse. its not all about the damage of this skill. it has just as much to do with its effect. and if any skill like that could end up being spammed, then you should pay for it. oh and your right, necros probably wouldn't use MoS with a higher cost without improving the skill. thats why i suggested that MoS should effect all spells, not just spells that target the ally of the foe. then it could be used against all casters. and i know you mean well, but i still don't see any necro secondaries running blood skills, even strip enchantments and especially awaken the blood. i have been trying my best to work with MoS for quite some time now. this is not something that i woke up one morning and decided see about getting MoS changed. but the number of times that i have used it or had the opportunity to use it is few and far between. with that said, how many people, necros, actually keep this skill in their bar? oh and glountz, right now Mark of Subversion has no effect on Mantra of Recovery or Angorodon's Gaze.

Jayce Of Underworld

Kale Ironfist · Oct 02, 2007, 03:00 PM // 15:00

You're missing the point. Diversion is only dangerous if you're stupid enough to use a skill while it's on you, or if you're in a position where you MUST use a skill, and don't have a skill to spare to throw it off you and can't wait 6 seconds. Mark of Subversion has very specific requirements (the foe using a spell on their ally), but what it does is still force them to expend energy and prevent complete activation of the spell. Then it steals health as well. Used carefully, it is a lot stronger than Diversion, but that happens so rarely, it can't be counted on, and when it could be used to great effect, Shame is better in every way.

Bumping up the cost so that it can't be abused is pointless, because it is not worth spending 15 energy to possibly prevent a 5-10 energy spell. Compare to Shame, you expend 10 energy so that they lose at least 10+spell cost in energy, and you regain the cost of the spell and a bit extra if you have beyond 9 ranks in Domination. The energy trade-off isn't worth it with your suggested changes. Increasing it to all spells, while improving it by a lot, doesn't really change its overall use, since you're aiming for 3/4 activations or less, otherwise you'd bring your Ranger interrupts, or even other Mesmer interrupts.

Thinking about it, the only two viable changes I can think of is reducing it to 5 energy and reducing the health stolen, or increasing the health stolen to something like 30..100 (at 0-15 Blood, FYI it's currently 10..92). The recharge is precedent from Shame, because the spell stopper (plus forcing them to waste energy) is strong, but the additional effect is weak. Increasing the gap between energy used for both teams, or increasing the health stolen so that it is a sizable chunk makes it more than worth using.

Yichi · Oct 02, 2007, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist

You're missing the point. Diversion is only dangerous if you're stupid enough to use a skill while it's on you, or if you're in a position where you MUST use a skill, and don't have a skill to spare to throw it off you and can't wait 6 seconds. Mark of Subversion has very specific requirements (the foe using a spell on their ally), but what it does is still force them to expend energy and prevent complete activation of the spell. Then it steals health as well. Used carefully, it is a lot stronger than Diversion, but that happens so rarely, it can't be counted on, and when it could be used to great effect, Shame is better in every way.

You clearly have no idea how diversion should be played. You're not just spamming it. Thats what bad players do. Any player thats half decent will use it at the optimal time and land a diversion about 3/4 of the cast, so that the user has virtually no chance to end the cast. Any player that isn't a complete and utter moron isn't going to cast with diversion on them beforehand, unless its a skill that they know they can burn and get back quickly such as in case of a morale boost.

Hawkeye · Oct 02, 2007, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Take a look at the difference between Guilt and Shame. The only difference as far as effect is concerned is the condition.

In one, you pay twice the cost. Why? Everyone knows that casting an offensive spell is a majority of all spells cast. The monk is one of the few classes that would regularly cast spells on other allies.

That's precisely the point. Anything that reduces the effectiveness of a monk is carefully scrutinized as to not be too powerful. If the recharge time were any lower than 20 seconds, a monk could get spammed quite easily and be rendered ineffective by three players with an organized team build. And not that it would even be so bad to put three players to focus on the monk either.. they'd actually GAIN energy.

Mark of Subversion doesn't steal energy, but hurting a monk for doing what he does best is hardly conditional. It's actually quite a nice skill if you use it correctly. If you want better, there's always Soul Leech. It's unconditional, but it'll cost ya an elite.

Snow Bunny · Oct 02, 2007, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Spike down player.
The LoD goes for the infuse
MoS just boned that infuse.

GG

But yeah, shame ftw.

A_Muppet · Oct 02, 2007, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

It was a strong skill when used on blood necromancers in builds that have something like a SV necro...otherwise blood is so rarely used that no one looks at MoS.

Or Soul Leech, to steal just shy of 200 health. I think the duration should go up to eight, but I agree that duration/damage wise there's better skills to take.

jayce · Oct 02, 2007, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist

You're missing the point. Diversion is only dangerous if you're stupid enough to use a skill while it's on you, or if you're in a position where you MUST use a skill, and don't have a skill to spare to throw it off you and can't wait 6 seconds. Mark of Subversion has very specific requirements (the foe using a spell on their ally), but what it does is still force them to expend energy and prevent complete activation of the spell. Then it steals health as well. Used carefully, it is a lot stronger than Diversion, but that happens so rarely, it can't be counted on, and when it could be used to great effect, Shame is better in every way.

Mark of Subversion is only dangerous for the exact same reason as Diversion along with Guilt, Shame and Mistrust. it doesn't matter whether or not it has a very specific requirement. they all do, with the exception of Diversion, which affects spells, attacks, signets, dogs and cats too. if one of these hexes is on you and you decide to cast a spell anyway, well its nobodys fault but your own. changing Mark of Subversion to effect all spells alone is reason enough for an increase in energy cost. but the recharge in my opinion is just too long considering the loss of health and not energy. everyone knows that it is 3 or 4 times as hard to recover energy than health. in a perfect world, i would love option 5, but option 2 looks to be the best fit with perhaps 15 energy cost, 2 cast time, and 20 recharge, of course with the ability to affect all spells. who knows, maybe we could see some necro secondaries if they can figure out how to cover the cost and i don't think thats necessarily a bad thing either. i don't mind seeing something different than curses every now and then.

Jayce Of Underworld

Sniper22 · Oct 02, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

It's good when combined with other skills for more pressure on monks. Say you are in RA and u throw soul leech on a monk. When soul leach goes down, use this skill while soul leech is recharging. Every skill can be used in some way.

nunix · Oct 02, 2007, 09:52 PM // 21:52

1) Not every skill is awesome in both PVE and PVP.
2) It's in a Necromancer line, and Necs typically aren't known for interrupts, which means that ANY interrupt is a valuable thing when taking into account only Necromancer lines.
3) It's picked up relatively early in PVE progression (Prophecies-only, Ice Tooth Cave or Lion's Arch for first acquisition).

It's restricted because it's a Necromancer interrupt (fairly rare) and is not an "end-game" skill.

This isn't to say that it DOESN'T need a boost, but your complaint seemed to be "why is it this way".. and well, that's why. =p And when talking about it for PVP, remember to think in terms of sealed-deck or other requirement PVP, not just team stuff or RA.

gameshoes3003 · Oct 02, 2007, 10:41 PM // 22:41

I've got to squabble on the opinion on Blood Magic being feeble.
That's all I use and I happen to like it and I find it to be powerful.
Anyway, like everybody said, if this had a lower recharge time, Mantra of Recovery would nicely exploit it.
It's a necromancer interrupt as well, very rare skill in the deck.
I would not say this skill sucks because I've used it well, and I've seen other use it way better than I did. All in the technique.
If you wish to say this sucks in PvE also, please do bash on Vile Touch as well.

Div · Oct 02, 2007, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by gameshoes3003

I've got to squabble on the opinion on Blood Magic being feeble.

Arcane echo + Spiteful spirit > MM bomber > Blood magic degen / life steal crap in PvE

Whoever runs blood magic in a real PvP match is either running
a) gimmick
b) bloodspike
c) bad build
d) all of the above